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Author Topic: Enchanted gear nerf?  (Read 11374 times)

Geiger

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2014, 07:04:39 PM »
Hello folks,

This thread is unlocked.

Remember to keep it civil, constructive, and calm. Failure to abide by these terms may result in infractions. We don't want that, we actually want to hear you out, and there are some legitimate issues with the 'change' that need be reported by your feedback, such as the redundant AC and skills.

Proceed and have a nice day.

Zarathustra217

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2014, 07:06:04 PM »
To quote an earlier post in this topic:

My boots went from Reflex save to Cold save... that is a completely different thing.

Why didn't that make you ponder when it went the other way around? I.e. when the non-enchanted version had bonus to save vs. cold, but lost that when being enchanted?

That not a single person found that peculiar, especially considering how consistently procedurally the crafting system is set up, is to me a clear example of (and this is with me trying to assuming the best in people) collective ignorance by convenience.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 07:25:12 PM by Zarathustra217 »

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2014, 07:30:25 PM »
This thread is unlocked.

(It wasn't unlocked... I assume this was a misclick? I'm going to unlock it...)
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Zarathustra217

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2014, 07:34:18 PM »
Let it be clear however, that we all do find it highly regrettable that the bug occurred in the first place. If it soothes your anger in any way, it is worth to point out that it's actually mainly due to a bug in a Bioware script, so ultimately the blame should be addressed at them. Still, it could of course just as well have been entirely our own mistake, but remember that our premise here (and why we still claim to be in BETA) is that you - the players - are our testers, and we rely wholly on your feedback.

Geiger

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2014, 09:09:21 PM »
This thread is unlocked.

(It wasn't unlocked... I assume this was a misclick? I'm going to unlock it...)

Huh. Well if it wasn't, it is now.

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2014, 09:29:37 PM »
I agree that a topic informing the playerbase could have been useful but at the same time, whenever we do create these topics, there's an uproar before the change is even put into effect so I'm not sure what difference it would have made.
I haven't had a chance to get any enchanted gear, so I can't really give an opinion it, but I think it would've been nice if there was advance notice. You're right, the uproar happens either way, though it's less of a kick in the teeth, and more polite, when big changes are rolled out with some warning. People just get angrier when things change overnight and they haven't had a chance to sleep on it and plan in advance how to adjust for it.

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2014, 09:58:56 PM »
Well! I will say this, I wasnt aware the old system was a bug, and I probably enjoyed the gear too much to find out. However, I actually dont mind these changes. It'll take some time to readjust, but I think it'll be good in the long run.
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Tycat

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2014, 10:01:47 PM »
I don't even care about the nerf anymore. What I care about is the way we're being talked to about it.

I have a serious problem with being accused of "convenient ignorance" or not reporting a bug. In the nearly two years I've been on this server, no, the crafting system hasn't made much sense to me. I have consistently struggled to understand it so as I come into more understanding currently, I really don't see how it falls on my lap, or others like me, to know this was a bug. How would we know it was a bug?

I see the Dev team calling us names at that point. Are we power gamers, exploiters, and cheats because we didn't know there was a bug to be reported? Because i sure as hell didn't. And how can this be put on the Player base when DM"s have Player characters too, and didn't seem to report it either? How is this an acceptable response?

I just feel like maybe the tone is out of line.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 10:03:47 PM by Tycat »

Lady Dwayna

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2014, 10:15:21 PM »

That not a single person found that peculiar, especially considering how consistently procedurally the crafting system is set up, is to me a clear example of (and this is with me trying to assuming the best in people) collective ignorance by convenience.

Here's the thing. I'll try and be short and quick about what you just said.

No one brought up the concern of the stat because it was equal to many loot items. Why would anyone think a +6 Reflex save is strange, when we can find rings that give +6 Hide, or +5 Listen? I remember when there was a bug in the wool clothing, I think it gave like 20 Cold resistance, I thought that was quite a bit, so I informed a DM. However 20 Cold resistance is a much bigger stat than +6 reflex save. Bioware is to blame for a lot of things involving NwN, but in this situation, we as your beta testers can't report something if it doesn't seem off in comparison to a lot of the custom loot. And truthfully, the crafted gear isn't better than a lot of the loot you can find in dungeons.

So, in closing, if there wasn't other "Loot" items that gave +6, it's possible there would have been reports about the imbalance of the reflex save. That's not on us this time around :)

Avatar6666

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2014, 10:20:46 PM »
Besides if there was an issue with the enchanting of items that give you to high of stat or boost, why not post this on the forum and stop enchanting.  I mean if you know it was an issue and let people keep building bad enchanted items, Inst that a flaw on the people who run the server, not the issue with the people who use the items. I mean if nothing else why not open a open chat about this before you just did it??


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FinalHeaven

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2014, 10:30:06 PM »
I'm just not really sure how people who supposedly didn't report the "bug" can be accused of convenient ignorance while the people who fix the bugs seem to get to pass off their lack of knowing the bug existed on a cluttered forum or heavy workloads.  One is not any more ignorant than the other, if at all.  Especially if you take into account the stats on some of these things were clearly posted about.

It's a fantasy setting, with all sorts of crazy items and magic.  Why is it unreasonable for someone who just enchanted their first piece of gear to assume that the enchanting process could add or remove properties?

I'm sorry but I find it very hard to believe that not a single staff member was aware of these stats at some point during the nine months since the beginning of the other thread.  In which case, I think it would have been much more reasonable to open a dialogue on the matter, if changes were incoming.

I'm pretty sure most people are just annoyed with the tone being directed at them.  And the fact that most major changes like this could be reasonably expected to come with an advance warning.  Sure, people will complain all the same.  But most reasonable people would have likely absorbed it better if they'd felt like they were being kept in the loop.  As opposed to setting a precedent that random, major changes can happen at the snap of someone's fingers, behind everyone's back.

chuuch1

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2014, 10:30:35 PM »
How is the player base supposed to report a bug when we don't even know what the correct stats are supposed to be?  Should have been up to the dev team to test the enchating system, and if they noticed any crazy items being made, put an out of order sign on the enchanting machine until it was fixed?  Kind of seems a little silly that this has gone on like this for a very long time.  I havnt been playing here for long but at no point have I heard anyone say the system was bugged.  

I think some kind of compromise should be made.  Because it is pretty unfair to just nerf it and say it was a bug.  Noboby knew it was a bug, so they saved up tons and tons of xp to get these good items.  Maybe they wouldnt have wasted their XP if they knew what the correct stats should have been.  

Avatar6666

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2014, 10:41:12 PM »
How is the player base supposed to report a bug when we don't even know what the correct stats are supposed to be?  Should have been up to the dev team to test the enchating system, and if they noticed any crazy items being made, put an out of order sign on the enchanting machine until it was fixed?  Kind of seems a little silly that this has gone on like this for a very long time.  I havnt been playing here for long but at no point have I heard anyone say the system was bugged. 

I think some kind of compromise should be made.  Because it is pretty unfair to just nerf it and say it was a bug.  Noboby knew it was a bug, so they saved up tons and tons of xp to get these good items.  Maybe they wouldnt have wasted their XP if they knew what the correct stats should have been. 

Yes I don't get it either, if you knew it was broken, why allow people to continue to make items....Because it sounds like they did not know if +6 was ok or not and suddenly decided that it was not and so they decided to screw with the players equipment at the last minute. Hell this is a major change to the game, we talked more about NCW then this change was happening on the forum....Why could you not just open a topic and in simple words explained before the items were changed on items. Probably would of helped rather then doing this.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 10:44:25 PM by Avatar6666 »


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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2014, 10:47:02 PM »
Let's all slow down on all the finger-pointing and who-should-have-caught-the-"bug" disputes.

First, let's all not forget that we are enjoying this server for free.  Free.  As in, none of us are paying for this.  Anything you get for free is pretty much off limits to complaining.

Second, let's not forget that while we are enjoying this for free, a bunch of dedicated people are actually running this on their own time.  They have lives, families, jobs, etc.  Their full-time responsibility is NOT catering to us (you know, the folks enjoying this for free?).

Third, while all of this probably should have been communicated to the community before it happened (at least so that players would not feel blindsided), this change is also not anything to have kittens over -- the game and environment have not fundamentally changed, and to the extent players feel cheated out of time and effort (represented by xp), there are potential solutions to mollify the crowd.  I personally like the idea of a trade-in mechanism.

So.... everybody take a deep breath, go to the kitchen, and have a nice warm cup of perspective.  Life isn't as bad as you think it is.  :D


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Syl

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2014, 10:50:03 PM »
[raises hand] We're still considered beta?!?!  :shock: :shock: :shock: :?: :?: :?:

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Avatar6666

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2014, 10:57:52 PM »
Sorry, I disagree with you Merry Munchkin, But this is something to get upset about. People took there own time here and because of that they gained xp, that xp was used to make Enchanted items. Those items were fine until suddenly they weren't. So with the team that runs this  changing things over night, Basically its our server and no matter what input or time you put into this server you don't matter here. I have seen this happen over and over and over again. This even pushed me out of the server here. So yea it is something to be upset about....


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chuuch1

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2014, 11:13:59 PM »
Let's all slow down on all the finger-pointing and who-should-have-caught-the-"bug" disputes.

First, let's all not forget that we are enjoying this server for free.  Free.  As in, none of us are paying for this.  Anything you get for free is pretty much off limits to complaining.

Second, let's not forget that while we are enjoying this for free, a bunch of dedicated people are actually running this on their own time.  They have lives, families, jobs, etc.  Their full-time responsibility is NOT catering to us (you know, the folks enjoying this for free?).

Third, while all of this probably should have been communicated to the community before it happened (at least so that players would not feel blindsided), this change is also not anything to have kittens over -- the game and environment have not fundamentally changed, and to the extent players feel cheated out of time and effort (represented by xp), there are potential solutions to mollify the crowd.  I personally like the idea of a trade-in mechanism.

So.... everybody take a deep breath, go to the kitchen, and have a nice warm cup of perspective.  Life isn't as bad as you think it is.  :D

Forgive me in advanceif this sounds a little harsh,

I've played on many servers, DM'd on a few and hosted one myself (as many here probably have as well), and this is the first thing that devs/DMs and some players too, say when you bring up something critical of the work they have done.  "You play for free, we volunteer, we all have lives, etc. etc. etc.  Heck I've even done it myself too!  I've realized that this isn't really a valid rebuttal.   It's like this one phrase absolves them of any wrong-doing or accountability.  While everyone is very appreciative that you donate your free time to the server, people have brought up some legitimate concerns here in a respectable manner.  

A simple, "Hey guys, we'll be discussing this further on the DM/Dev side of things and will keep you posted"  Or a "Hey guys, what do you think the changes should be?"  Somethings along those lines would go a lot further with the playerbase.

I'll shut up now

Tycat

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2014, 11:14:32 PM »
Free or not, this has nothing to do with that. No one is questioning that the dev team give us a server to play on for free, or that they have lives. We all do.

What's just wrong is treating us badly out of the blue. The nerf? PFt whatever, we'll adjust. I don't even think it was that bad that there wasn't advanced warning.

But being belittled, name called, and persecuted for something that wasn't our fault is just bad manners. What about the rule, be excellent to eachother? Calling the player base on a whole cheaters, who didn't report a bug they didn't know about, is far from excellent.

Avatar6666

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2014, 11:16:08 PM »
Free or not, this has nothing to do with that. No one is questioning that the dev team give us a server to play on for free, or that they have lives. We all do.

What's just wrong is treating us badly out of the blue. The nerf? PFt whatever, we'll adjust. I don't even think it was that bad that there wasn't advanced warning.

But being belittled, name called, and persecuted for something that wasn't our fault is just bad manners. What about the rule, be excellent to eachother? Calling the player base on a whole cheaters, who didn't report a bug they didn't know about, is far from excellent.

+1!!


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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2014, 11:18:23 PM »
Sorry, I disagree with you Merry Munchkin, But this is something to get upset about. People took there own time here and because of that they gained xp, that xp was used to make Enchanted items. Those items were fine until suddenly they weren't. So with the team that runs this  changing things over night, Basically its our server and no matter what input or time you put into this server you don't matter here. I have seen this happen over and over and over again. This even pushed me out of the server here. So yea it is something to be upset about....


Yes, I can see your point -- up to a point.  No one should be blindsided by an unpleasant surprise.  However, when you put in the time to play this game and earn xp for your character, presumably you were doing so because you enjoyed the game, had fun playing with other people, and would have spent this time playing regardless of whether you had an option to "cash out" some xp later for crafting purposes.  The fact that you chose to use xp for crafting purposes doesn't make all that playing time somehow disappear, or that your enjoyment of that time spent playing is somehow diminished.

XP is a consequence of play, which everyone presumably is doing here voluntarily to pass the time and have fun.  The fact that what you chose to "buy" with that xp in crafting is now diminished in your eyes does not make the prior experience of playing and accumulating that xp somehow retroactively unenjoyable.

However, I do recognize that some players may have chosen not to cash out their xp in crafting if they had known what the items would have become, and as a consequence they are potentially further behind in their character level progression than they might have otherwise been.  The solution for this is simple -- let players trade in their crafted items (which presumably they would not have chosen to make in the first place), and provide them an xp "refund" of some sort.

Personally, though, I think the concept of a refund should be tempered by the fact that there is not an xp or gold shortage in the game -- the game generates spawn and loot on an infinite basis.  Kill all you want, it will make more.  The only resource the players actually have to "spend" is their time, which no one can replace anyway.

Consequently, my previous position holds -- this is not anything to break out the torches and pitchforks over.  To the extent that players want recompense for xp they would not have voluntarily cashed out, some sort of corrective action should be relatively easy to do.


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armybrat69

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2014, 11:27:59 PM »
I don't even care about the nerf anymore. What I care about is the way we're being talked to about it.

I have a serious problem with being accused of "convenient ignorance" or not reporting a bug. In the nearly two years I've been on this server, no, the crafting system hasn't made much sense to me. I have consistently struggled to understand it so as I come into more understanding currently, I really don't see how it falls on my lap, or others like me, to know this was a bug. How would we know it was a bug?

I see the Dev team calling us names at that point. Are we power gamers, exploiters, and cheats because we didn't know there was a bug to be reported? Because i sure as hell didn't. And how can this be put on the Player base when DM"s have Player characters too, and didn't seem to report it either? How is this an acceptable response?

I just feel like maybe the tone is out of line.

From everything that I am reading thus far it seems the blame is to be on the players for not knowing what the value of our character's xp should be...uh huh...bug or not fine but you should have given players a heads up regardless. I think Tycat here and many others have a right to be upset.
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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2014, 11:34:11 PM »
 While everyone is very appreciative that you donate your free time to the server, people have brought up some legitimate concerns here in a respectable manner.  



Just a point of clarification, I am not a DM or developer on PoTM.  I am just a player like everyone else.  I also recognize that while every playerbase loves to claim ownership of their PW, in reality we all rely on other people to do all the heavy lifting for us.  We show up to the picnic to eat all the food, and complain about the quality and variety of the menu, but none of us do the cooking or cleaning or grocery shopping.

The concerns of any playerbase are important, but gamers are a society that often acts very entitled to things we don't really contribute to, beyond playing a game.  It is important to raise concerns with changes, and many of the concerns that have been raised are valid, but a lot of what I am reading on the thread is couched in a tone of indignation and entitlement (sort of like a "how dare they change MY game!").  Likewise, I think that the initial tone of a lot of the postings put the developers into a defensive crouch, and changed the tone of their responses.   I think we all need to relax a little bit and have some perspective.


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Tycat

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2014, 11:40:09 PM »
  While everyone is very appreciative that you donate your free time to the server, people have brought up some legitimate concerns here in a respectable manner. 



Just a point of clarification, I am not a DM or developer on PoTM.  I am just a player like everyone else.  I also recognize that while every playerbase loves to claim ownership of their PW, in reality we all rely on other people to do all the heavy lifting for us.  We show up to the picnic to eat all the food, and complain about the quality and variety of the menu, but none of us do the cooking or cleaning or grocery shopping.

The concerns of any playerbase are important, but gamers are a society that often acts very entitled to things we don't really contribute to, beyond playing a game.  It is important to raise concerns with changes, and many of the concerns that have been raised are valid, but a lot of what I am reading on the thread is couched in a tone of indignation and entitlement (sort of like a "how dare they change MY game!").  Likewise, I think that the initial tone of a lot of the postings put the developers into a defensive crouch, and changed the tone of their responses.   I think we all need to relax a little bit and have some perspective.

So because of this, we can all be accused of selectively not reporting a bug we were unaware of, and be talked down to? That's what i am getting out of what you're saying. Because of this, so long as we play here, we are up - free game - for being insulted when we were ignorant of what was up.

I built Two servers in my time with NWN. I hosted three, and Admin'd for three. I have DM'd for four servers and I am going to tell you right now - It isn't acceptable to talk down to your players because when it comes down to it, it's mean. That's right. I said it. It is mean. I have seen similar situations cause players to decline, and servers to die. I would never have talked to my players in this way, and usually didn't even when i found them cheating.  I don't think anyone is upset about the nerf anymore so much as the tone in which it was handled. I personally felt ill being implied as a cheater. Maybe you don't feel the same way, but this argument you're making is irrelevant to the point.
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« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 11:42:00 PM by Tycat »

Avatar6666

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2014, 11:42:28 PM »
  While everyone is very appreciative that you donate your free time to the server, people have brought up some legitimate concerns here in a respectable manner. 



Just a point of clarification, I am not a DM or developer on PoTM.  I am just a player like everyone else.  I also recognize that while every playerbase loves to claim ownership of their PW, in reality we all rely on other people to do all the heavy lifting for us.  We show up to the picnic to eat all the food, and complain about the quality and variety of the menu, but none of us do the cooking or cleaning or grocery shopping.

The concerns of any playerbase are important, but gamers are a society that often acts very entitled to things we don't really contribute to, beyond playing a game.  It is important to raise concerns with changes, and many of the concerns that have been raised are valid, but a lot of what I am reading on the thread is couched in a tone of indignation and entitlement (sort of like a "how dare they change MY game!").  Likewise, I think that the initial tone of a lot of the postings put the developers into a defensive crouch, and changed the tone of their responses.   I think we all need to relax a little bit and have some perspective.

So because of this, we can all be accused of selectively not reporting a bug we were unaware of, and be talked down to? That's what i am getting out of what you're saying. Because of this, so long as we play here, we are up - free game - for being insulted when we were ignorant of what was up.

I built Two servers in my time with NWN. I hosted three, and Admin'd for three. I have DM'd for four servers and I am going to tell you right now - It isn't acceptable to talk down to your players because when it comes down to it, it's mean. That's right. I said it. It is mean. I have seen similar situations cause players to decline, and servers to die. I would never have talked to my players in this way, and usually didn't even when i found them cheating.  I don't think anyone is upset about the nerf anymore so much as the tone in which it was handled. I personally felt ill being implied as a cheater. Maybe you don't feel the same way, but this argument you're making is irrelevant to the point.
Server or not.
Rules or not.
We are all people, and negativity is cancerous.

+1!!!!


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No evil shall escape my sight
Let those who worship evil’s might,
Beware my power… Green Lantern’s light!”

FinalHeaven

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2014, 11:43:48 PM »
Constantly saying that people need to relax really doesn't help.  Likewise, it seems to me that the word "complaining" seems to be getting thrown around liberally.

The discussion has been pretty relaxed, and this is a discussion forum.  The legitimacy of the change is just as valid a topic as the actual numerical change it self.  Similarly, the idea that the initial tone of certain posters put the developers into a defensive crouch may very well be valid.  Likely just as valid as posters being put into a defensive crouch by being blindsided with a change that, quite frankly, seems to have a lot of holes in it's logic.

I suspect that if a discussion had been opened prior to the change then some of the holes would have been filled almost immediately.  Instead it wasn't, and so the discussion that does occur is immediately tainted by people feeling cheated.  When you combine that with the somewhat shifty reasoning of the change itself, you've got a powder keg waiting to blow.

Still, I don't think anyone here is actually foaming at the mouth in rage.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 11:47:10 PM by FinalHeaven »