Author Topic: Enchanted gear nerf?  (Read 11356 times)

SingASongOfDeath

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2014, 05:22:18 PM »
I suppose, at this point, I'm grateful to have found another server which avoids these things.


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Merry Munchkin

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2014, 05:23:31 PM »
I can certainly empathize with the bait-and-switch feeling for those who paid full price for something that turned out to be half the value.  Perhaps it would have been nice to have a "trade in" event where players could exchange their old gear for some xp refund.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure if this warrants much rending of hair, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, just because the server perpetually generates an infinite amount of replacement xp and gold, so everything that is spent can be recouped -- it really is all about the investment of time, rather than resources.

It happens automatically on log in. I am very, very bitter. I feel like just a couple of well built people with loud mouths proclaiming things are overpowered just killed it for the rest of us averagely built characters who struggle. And it still doesn't address the fact that the SPAWNS ARE THE PROBLEM

The change may occur automatically, but you could still run a "trade in" event -- just hold a three-day period (or whatever duration people wish) and folks can bring in whatever they crafted that got nerfed, and exchange it (if they want to) for a partial "refund" on xp.  Once the event is over, no further trade ins would be allowed.


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FlyingLotus

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2014, 05:25:18 PM »
I would like to point out, no one forced you all to enchant gear. The high saves were always clearly an oversight giving how broken they can be, but personally? I feel like this is in response to the "roll 1, auto fail' thread as the saves have been brought up in that.

Of course nobody was forced, however the point is that the items we initially paid for with gold and xp are not what we now have.  That is where the frustration is coming from.  There could've been some sort of happy medium to be made where the power level of the items was decreased, but not to the point of making them utterly useless.

Yup. This is a game, no one forces us to do anything. But I don't see why it's unreasonable to expect what you pay for to be what it is and not turn in to something entirely different. Enchanting something, even when it's 2,000 xp instead of oh say 16,000 (like some things), isn't a small investment. There's a lot of time reflected in 2,000 xp. These things could easily have been nerfed without turning them in to almost completely different items. They largely don't even serve the same function, so while there may be some enchanted gear still out there that I'd like, I'll need to figure out what it is and do it all over again.
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Syl

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2014, 05:25:37 PM »
I can relate to frustration but come one folks we're mature here. complaining and whinning about it wont make it any different. So some items got lowered... yes if a lot of us knew what these stats were before we bought them yes none of us would have gotten them.. But the fact is we did.. and to say it was a lot of RP wasted in such... I can't agree there. I've enjoyed Rping ever last bit of getting my enchanted gear. down the the +3 acid boots. lol

and all I have to say when I read this at times and laugh is.


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ShadyWraith

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2014, 05:28:13 PM »
A bit of a heads up might've been nice from staff members.  Nothing like logging in to see that your gear is all ****ed =]

ladylena

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2014, 05:29:17 PM »
I can understand the need to nerf the enchanted items to a degree. But if it was reduced to what I am reading then it seems like an utter waste of xp points. It will make people less likely to even use the system. It could be handled differently, lower the bonuses by half or some such.

With all the changes that are being made, some certainly needed, I've heard it said that people are starting to feel like this server is less geared towards story and becoming more and more a 'hardcore server'.  

I love this server and I really do not want to see it loose its members, and it seems to me like things such as this are going to cause that.

I do understand why it was done, it had to be, the +6 was insane, so it was not balanced, but what I am reading isn't balanced either. It would be good to get some clarification on the exact reason this was done, along with what items are affected and how badly.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2014, 05:29:57 PM »
Perhaps we could stop implying people are "complaining and whining" and accept the fact that people can have discussions on a forum?

These things could easily have been nerfed without turning them in to almost completely different items. They largely don't even serve the same function, so while there may be some enchanted gear still out there that I'd like, I'll need to figure out what it is and do it all over again.

This.  Some of these changes don't make sense.  And I'm not sure how +1 universal saves can possibly be considered a balanced nerf down from +6 reflex.

DM Cataclysm

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2014, 05:33:11 PM »
I'm not debating whether or not some of the items were overpowered, but people have brought up some good points here. Not all of the items that were adjusted down were in the 2,000xp range. Some were in the 7,000-9,000xp range - that represents a lot of time lost on a server that limits XP as we do on PoTM. It's also true that people wouldn't have spent that much XP to create what we see now as the end product.

Most of these items have also been around a LONG time. Some characters have worked toward getting these enchanted items over the entire life of their character, so to have a 'bug' around that long and expect people not to be upset after something they worked 6-8 months to obtain is suddenly yanked and replaced by something much less, isn't realistic. I would also question how long these adjustments have been planned. I assume a little longer than this morning. In cases such as these, it might be helpful to post an update on the forums regarding the upcoming change instead of doing it suddenly and with no warning. That would allow players who are in the process of enchanting these items or purchasing them to make a more informed decision. It would also give players the opportunity to provide some feedback on something that effects them so directly, prior to the change taking place.

I would warn against anyone presenting the 'just deal with it' attitude so much on the forums. I recently brought up a period about a year ago where we saw a sharp decline in the player base. This was shortly after several adjustments to spells and items took place. A lot of players were unhappy with the results and took to the forums, receiving a similar response. Specifically in relation to some of the spell changes - there were some responses from the staff along the lines of 'be happy about this, or it can be made worse.' A lot of veteran players left at the time, feeling like the server was too punishing and that their feedback wasn't being taken seriously or into consideration at all.

Overall, I understand that some changes need to be made from time to time which are going to be viewed as negative - to help maintain balances on the server. I think the problem we've seen with players becoming so angry is with the execution of these changes and the reaction to the feedback. If people feel that most of the changes are negative and they don't have a legitimate place to voice their opinions where they'll be taken seriously, we're going to have another drop in the player base (I've already heard the grumblings).

Badelaire

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2014, 05:34:14 PM »
Who remembers when there was no enchanting system? Oh god the horror, how did we ever manage to level at all without +8 reflex boots when +1ab weapons and saves gear were the stuff of rumours and not found in every garbage pile!? And this is coming from someone who just lost 5 fortitude on the only 2 PC's I have with enchanted boots whose worst save happens to be fortitude. Quite a lot here I know for a fact paid gold for their enchanted gear rather than their own XP or had it handed it to them anyway.

I think the ones with the legitimate "I've been cheated" complaint are those who put the time and effort into getting the reagents, turning them into essences, getting their crafted item of choice made and used their own XP to make it. I am not going to complain about this change as I feel it rounds down the power of PC's a little more to allow them to be affected by such rp devices as madness and horror checks.

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2014, 05:34:21 PM »
I wouldn't mind bonuses to specific saving throws at values like +3 or +4 instead of +6. But that's not my decision, it's one made by the developers. I am just telling you all why enchanted gear and it's overwhelming power was frustrating to me as a DM, something I shared with the developers when they were discussing it.

As for those of you who are talking about taking an extended break because of this, do what you feel is necessary. But I don't think these knee-jerk reactions to the changes are beneficial in the least. If random numbers in a 10-year old video game are somehow upsetting to you, I suggest you take certain things into perspective, instead of flying off the handle and saying PotM's somehow ruined forever.

emptyanima

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2014, 05:39:58 PM »
I can understand the need to nerf the enchanted items to a degree. But if it was reduced to what I am reading then it seems like an utter waste of xp points. It will make people less likely to even use the system. It could be handled differently, lower the bonuses by half or some such.

With all the changes that are being made, some certainly needed, I've heard it said that people are starting to feel like this server is less geared towards story and becoming more and more a 'hardcore server'.  

I love this server and I really do not want to see it loose its members, and it seems to me like things such as this are going to cause that.

I do understand why it was done, it had to be, the +6 was insane, so it was not balanced, but what I am reading isn't balanced either. It would be good to get some clarification on the exact reason this was done, along with what items are affected and how badly.

I agree with all of this. I love this server, I want the staff to be communicative, heck the whole community needs to be communicative, otherwise problems are left to fester and it causes poison in the community. Yes, the server is meant to be hard. It is. Yes, enchanted gear was too much, half the stats. This change is a slap in the face for a lot of people (I have been very lucky in that my gear is almost untouched and still serves the same functions).

People say make 1s a fail? Force people to prepare. That needs good casters and buffers. But other people think that magic is too plentiful and they get mad about that, even though the world is full of hidden magics. Beef up the spawns, more HP, more of them. That will increase the challenge without completely wrecking progress.

Enchanted gear comes at the OOC XP cost, but also with IC weight and gravitas. Getting a bit of enchanted gear is a big moment and can be a big thing in RP.

The server population is reduced at it is. I've noticed far fewer people adventuring because they lack what is needed to face the enemies. As such, the same people are being relied on to carry others through places. Those who buff well and such are being overworked because they are good at it, which I imagine makes them look like OOC-heavy dungeoning powergamers to many, when they are simply picking up the slack!

So yes, I will echo the point I made as have others. The enchanting nerf was too heavy. A change like this needed testing and pre-warning. Please be more careful with changes like this in future, lest alienation, confusion and a feeling of wasted time and energy cause the server population to dwindle further.  

Who remembers when there was no enchanting system? Oh god the horror, how did we ever manage to level at all without +8 reflex boots when +1ab weapons and saves gear were the stuff of rumours and not found in every garbage pile!?

First, not everyone has been playing as long. Secondly, please spare us the hyperbole, there is a problem here, don't gloss over it with sarcasm.

FinalHeaven

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2014, 05:50:56 PM »
If random numbers in a 10-year old video game are somehow upsetting to you, I suggest you take certain things into perspective, instead of flying off the handle and saying PotM's somehow ruined forever.

My mind is actually blown that this is considered an acceptable statement.  Coupled with the stifling ego in the OOC area I'm honestly confused as to why this server even has a discussion forum?

It's a real shame Mika's post seems to be ignored.

emptyanima

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2014, 05:54:43 PM »
question

I have enchanted silk. originally it was

+2 AC
+2 Universal Saving throws
+9 Infleunce
+9 Perform

now it's

+2 AC
+2 Universal Saving throws
+2 Perform
+6 perform
+2 Influence
+6 Influence.

What?

Same, Ren's robes are now +2/+6 for both Perform and Influence.

But I don't think these knee-jerk reactions to the changes are beneficial in the least.
Neither is making large changes without consulting or warning the playerbase.

I'm not debating whether or not some of the items were overpowered, but people have brought up some good points here. Not all of the items that were adjusted down were in the 2,000xp range. Some were in the 7,000-9,000xp range - that represents a lot of time lost on a server that limits XP as we do on PoTM. It's also true that people wouldn't have spent that much XP to create what we see now as the end product.

Most of these items have also been around a LONG time. Some characters have worked toward getting these enchanted items over the entire life of their character, so to have a 'bug' around that long and expect people not to be upset after something they worked 6-8 months to obtain is suddenly yanked and replaced by something much less, isn't realistic. I would also question how long these adjustments have been planned. I assume a little longer than this morning. In cases such as these, it might be helpful to post an update on the forums regarding the upcoming change instead of doing it suddenly and with no warning. That would allow players who are in the process of enchanting these items or purchasing them to make a more informed decision. It would also give players the opportunity to provide some feedback on something that effects them so directly, prior to the change taking place.

I would warn against anyone presenting the 'just deal with it' attitude so much on the forums. I recently brought up a period about a year ago where we saw a sharp decline in the player base. This was shortly after several adjustments to spells and items took place. A lot of players were unhappy with the results and took to the forums, receiving a similar response. Specifically in relation to some of the spell changes - there were some responses from the staff along the lines of 'be happy about this, or it can be made worse.' A lot of veteran players left at the time, feeling like the server was too punishing and that their feedback wasn't being taken seriously or into consideration at all.

Overall, I understand that some changes need to be made from time to time which are going to be viewed as negative - to help maintain balances on the server. I think the problem we've seen with players becoming so angry is with the execution of these changes and the reaction to the feedback. If people feel that most of the changes are negative and they don't have a legitimate place to voice their opinions where they'll be taken seriously, we're going to have another drop in the player base (I've already heard the grumblings).


Mika speaks wise words.

puckwolf

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2014, 05:57:57 PM »
Hey guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but let's please keep everything constructive and civil.  Try to avoid rage posting, baiting and slinging passive aggressive remarks around.   Doing so really serves no purpose other than to rile other folks up and foster negative feelings.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 06:05:05 PM by puckwolf »

ShadyWraith

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2014, 05:58:38 PM »
I wouldn't mind bonuses to specific saving throws at values like +3 or +4 instead of +6. But that's not my decision, it's one made by the developers. I am just telling you all why enchanted gear and it's overwhelming power was frustrating to me as a DM, something I shared with the developers when they were discussing it.

As for those of you who are talking about taking an extended break because of this, do what you feel is necessary. But I don't think these knee-jerk reactions to the changes are beneficial in the least. If random numbers in a 10-year old video game are somehow upsetting to you, I suggest you take certain things into perspective, instead of flying off the handle and saying PotM's somehow ruined forever.

"Random" Numbers....? Have you read ANY of this thread?

DM Cataclysm

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2014, 06:00:25 PM »
It's a real shame Mika's post seems to be ignored.

Thanks for reading it : D I knew I'd lose most people due to the length.

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2014, 06:03:06 PM »
I'm not debating whether or not some of the items were overpowered, but people have brought up some good points here. Not all of the items that were adjusted down were in the 2,000xp range. Some were in the 7,000-9,000xp range - that represents a lot of time lost on a server that limits XP as we do on PoTM. It's also true that people wouldn't have spent that much XP to create what we see now as the end product.

Most of these items have also been around a LONG time. Some characters have worked toward getting these enchanted items over the entire life of their character, so to have a 'bug' around that long and expect people not to be upset after something they worked 6-8 months to obtain is suddenly yanked and replaced by something much less, isn't realistic. I would also question how long these adjustments have been planned. I assume a little longer than this morning. In cases such as these, it might be helpful to post an update on the forums regarding the upcoming change instead of doing it suddenly and with no warning. That would allow players who are in the process of enchanting these items or purchasing them to make a more informed decision. It would also give players the opportunity to provide some feedback on something that effects them so directly, prior to the change taking place.

I would warn against anyone presenting the 'just deal with it' attitude so much on the forums. I recently brought up a period about a year ago where we saw a sharp decline in the player base. This was shortly after several adjustments to spells and items took place. A lot of players were unhappy with the results and took to the forums, receiving a similar response. Specifically in relation to some of the spell changes - there were some responses from the staff along the lines of 'be happy about this, or it can be made worse.' A lot of veteran players left at the time, feeling like the server was too punishing and that their feedback wasn't being taken seriously or into consideration at all.

Overall, I understand that some changes need to be made from time to time which are going to be viewed as negative - to help maintain balances on the server. I think the problem we've seen with players becoming so angry is with the execution of these changes and the reaction to the feedback. If people feel that most of the changes are negative and they don't have a legitimate place to voice their opinions where they'll be taken seriously, we're going to have another drop in the player base (I've already heard the grumblings).

This. People seem to forget something here, I have Run three servers and Built two of them. This is something to take a moment and read.

It's a real shame Mika's post seems to be ignored.

Thanks for reading it : D I knew I'd lose most people due to the length.

It isn't that long. People should read it.

Legion XXI

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2014, 06:03:19 PM »
Hey guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but let's please keep everything constructive and civil.  Try to avoid rage posting, baiting and slinging passive aggressive remarks around.   Doing so really serves no purpose other than to rile other folks up and foster negative feelings.






The puckwolf is a wise creature.


As for my opinion, I'm glad this was done and I feel that while some people might be worried right now, it's going to be better for everyone in the long run.  We could all benefit from taking a deep breath and approaching this with a much more civil tone.  Trust your DM and Dev team, they put a lot of free volunteer hours into making the server a fun and awesome place to play.  We should show respect for that.  They are not trying to ruin anyone's experience here.

FlyingLotus

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2014, 06:04:28 PM »
I agree with Mika about acting like it's just whining for any of us to voice our opinion on the matter. Please don't be so condescending. If you don't care about the changes that's fine, but some people do and one function of the forum is to be able to talk about this sort of thing.

Also, I realize that someone took the time to do all of this. While I may have some opinions contrary to the result, I want to make it clear I do appreciate the work the dev team puts in.

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2014, 06:06:07 PM »
I've read the posts in this topic and I seriously don't understand the uproar. First of all, as Mephisto clarified, it was a bug. It took that long to fix it because no players felt the need to report the fact that they had boots or other items with saves absurdly high so the developers didn't know it occurred until it was reported by DMs following that Autofail topic. The values are what they were supposed to be initially now.

Secondly, this server has existed for about eight years without enchanted gear and people could dungeon. We haven't really tweaked anything else so us going more hardcore is a ridiculous complaint. If anything in the past year or two gear power (looted and crafted) has increased a lot; crafting has made it much easier for people to adventure and this is still the case, even with reduced enchanted gear.

If you're new to this server and all you knew was this system with bugged out enchanting then yes maybe you can feel we're going in some direction but we're not.

I agree that a topic informing the playerbase could have been useful but at the same time, whenever we do create these topics, there's an uproar before the change is even put into effect so I'm not sure what difference it would have made.

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2014, 06:06:22 PM »
Hey guys, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but let's please keep everything constructive and civil.  Try to avoid rage posting, baiting and slinging passive aggressive remarks around.   Doing so really serves no purpose other than to rile other folks up and foster negative feelings.






The puckwolf is a wise creature.


As for my opinion, I'm glad this was done and I feel that while some people might be worried right now, it's going to be better for everyone in the long run.  We could all benefit from taking a deep breath and approaching this with a much more civil tone.  Trust your DM and Dev team, they put a lot of free volunteer hours into making the server a fun and awesome place to play.  We should show respect for that.  They are not trying to ruin anyone's experience here.

+1.

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2014, 06:06:45 PM »
instead of flying off the handle and saying PotM's somehow ruined forever.

Venge is right, there's a thread for that! ;)
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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2014, 06:06:53 PM »
It's a real shame Mika's post seems to be ignored.

Thanks for reading it : D I knew I'd lose most people due to the length.

I read it!.. I just suck at words we all know this

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Roesor Cryso: A slave for the Masters.
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Geiger

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2014, 06:07:43 PM »
Hey guys,

I am going to lock this thread for about an hour or two to let everyone cool down and think of calm, constructive responses. In that time, please do not make new threads, it will be re-opened and I'll let you all know.

Remember the golden rule, 'Be excellent to each-other' and its extension, 'party on dudes'!

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Re: Enchanted gear nerf?
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2014, 06:45:00 PM »
As EO said, this is not a nerf but a bug fix. If you want to blame someone, the most appropriate target would be those that discovered the gross inconsistencies and did not report it but chose to systematically exploit it.

The enchanted items will still be overall superior to anything you might ever hope to find elsewhere on the server. The gap is just more consistent now rather than in favor of the select combinations that were bugged.