Author Topic: Kagonesti Stats  (Read 5339 times)

Paragonville

  • Demiplane Escapee
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1634
  • actly ezlin
Kagonesti Stats
« on: June 03, 2014, 03:56:13 PM »
So, I noticed something I find strange.  

Kagonesti here on PoTM are really nerfed.  Elves naturally receive +2 Dex, -2 Con.  However, here, they aren't given an even hand in their benefits.  If I recall, they should receive +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 INT, -2 CHA.  However, they receive +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha.

Which leaves any Kagonesti here on PoTM two points behind any other elf.  As if they are inherently weaker than them.  When it is only supposed to be a reallocation of benefits due to differences in lifestyle.

Darkelf30420

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 80
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2014, 04:44:12 PM »
Looked that up in my Dragon lance book. The Kagonesti get a +2 dex, -2 int and cha. They are supposed to get a +1 to Knowledge (nature), and Survival. As well as darkvision 30'.

Any other Dragon Lance questions, I have a few of the Core books, including the War of the Lance campaign book.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 04:46:22 PM by Darkelf30420 »

Maelithii

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2014, 04:50:20 PM »
+2 dex/str   -2cha  according to the Chapter 2 Pathfinger conversion - Source Guile's World.
+2 Dex/Wis  -2 Int according to Dragonlance Nexus Lexicon
Isenduril Mel'fesef: "We have nothing but time.."

Paragonville

  • Demiplane Escapee
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1634
  • actly ezlin
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 04:53:50 PM »
Seems there's a lot of different things being said.  As they stand now, though, I don't see much benefit besides the RP, I suppose.

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22404
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 05:21:01 PM »
Quote
Which leaves any Kagonesti here on PoTM two points behind any other elf.  As if they are inherently weaker than them.  When it is only supposed to be a reallocation of benefits due to differences in lifestyle.

There's no rule in DnD that states that subraces are all equivalent in terms of power. Some are weaker and some are stronger (ie: drow elf).

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 05:25:41 PM »
Drow would be  a bad example due to the race has ECL levels to reflect their power. If your just comparing base races with no ecl ..

Honoun

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 865
  • Happy Rainy Days
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 05:33:04 PM »
ECL? :? Acronyms, confusing none gaming gurus since 1980 :P

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 06:06:44 PM »
Effective Character Level. Because Drow are more powerful then standard races, they are considered starting off a higher level. Brand new level 2 drow on this server acts as a level 4 pc in terms of experience gain and growth.

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22404
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 06:53:56 PM »
Drow would be  a bad example due to the race has ECL levels to reflect their power. If your just comparing base races with no ecl ..

Bad example perhaps but it's the same point. DnD subraces are not balanced with each other, especially when you have subraces from different settings. I implemented the subraces based on their 3E statistics; some have ECL because they're drastically better than other subraces. Some will be weaker (I remember a few gnome subraces that are really terrible) but really people should pick a subrace for roleplay purposes not because of the statistics.

Zwickelfaust

  • The Gorefist
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1521
  • Catching natural 20s from monsters since birth.
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 10:13:59 AM »
I agree, on a server based on RP stats lose their relevance. I have dabbled with a few Kagonesti. The fun of playing one outweighs the nerfing of the stats. It shouldn't deter you from playing one. It's an enjoyable experience.
Hjorta the Heartless- Seidr Wight
Allek Mars- Dawnbringer
Asmund Ingvar- Berserker Runemaster

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 10:38:36 AM »
I would agree if it was table top, but with the modification of potm skills and the need to have more for survivability, -2 int should be outweighted with a benefit else where, or the race updated to 3.5 to reflect their true skills as Kagonesti , as they are much stronger or intuitive then their other krynn elven counterparts.

Nor was this thread about the rp of the subrace, but the actual power of it compared to others. Derailing it that its just better to rp is moot.

Maelithii

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2014, 10:46:46 AM »
RP server or not, combat is a huge part of it or there would'nt have a level 20 cap or so many dungeons. Stat nerfs are only a secondary concern when a character is RP first or only (even then they matter to an extent as they represent something). Even then, if Kagonesti are like wild elves, I am going to simply say that it seems illogical to only give a +2 dex and two negative penalties. Wild Elves are the phyiscally challenged as a result of how they live and behave and require stamina, agility and a degree of strength in order to survive as a people and individuals. More so than the other subraces on average. It seems only +2 dex  and then the -2 int/cha is misrepresentative in my opinion regardless of the existance of other nerfed subraces. Even the -2 CHA is questionable. Elves are considered beautiful, period. But only some subraces (to my knowledge) get a CHA bonus such as Drow. Dragonlance lexicon says that Kagonesti are beautiful to non-elves but viewed as exotic beasts by their cousins. If the racial adjustments are altered from the original, then theres no reason to stop there? Remove the cha penalty. A Kagonesti's beauty, leadership potential and charisma is not automatically hampered by their birth. Then again I never liked the way CHA is represented ingame but that aside. They're not uglier than other elves, they're looked down on. They are no less charismatic, charismatic individuals are that which they follow and there are more forms of it than simply being pretty to look at. Finally social graces are entirely situational, depending on the society.

In summary: My opinion is add a str/con bonus to the dex or remove the cha and any inbalance is corrected. Other subraces which are unbalanced does not seem like a valid counter argument as there needs to be some reason that they're inherently weaker than other types of that race. If you use it as an argument, it seems to me that you are saying Wild Elves are inferior (represented by net -2 stats to every other elf and standard nwn race), and I don't think thats true.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 10:48:18 AM by Maelithii »
Isenduril Mel'fesef: "We have nothing but time.."

Kendaric

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 10:58:20 AM »
RP server or not, combat is a huge part of it or there would'nt have a level 20 cap or so many dungeons. Stat nerfs are only a secondary concern when a character is RP first or only (even then they matter to an extent as they represent something). Even then, if Kagonesti are like wild elves, I am going to simply say that it seems illogical to only give a +2 dex and two negative penalties. Wild Elves are the phyiscally challenged as a result of how they live and behave and require stamina, agility and a degree of strength in order to survive as a people and individuals. More so than the other subraces on average. It seems only +2 dex  and then the -2 int/cha is misrepresentative in my opinion regardless of the existance of other nerfed subraces. Even the -2 CHA is questionable. Elves are considered beautiful, period. But only some subraces (to my knowledge) get a CHA bonus such as Drow. Dragonlance lexicon says that Kagonesti are beautiful to non-elves but viewed as exotic beasts by their cousins. If the racial adjustments are altered from the original, then theres no reason to stop there? Remove the cha penalty. A Kagonesti's beauty, leadership potential and charisma is not automatically hampered by their birth. Then again I never liked the way CHA is represented ingame but that aside. They're not uglier than other elves, they're looked down on. They are no less charismatic, charismatic individuals are that which they follow and there are more forms of it than simply being pretty to look at. Finally social graces are entirely situational, depending on the society.

In summary: My opinion is add a str/con bonus to the dex or remove the cha and any inbalance is corrected. Other subraces which are unbalanced does not seem like a valid counter argument as there needs to be some reason that they're inherently weaker than other types of that race. If you use it as an argument, it seems to me that you are saying Wild Elves are inferior (represented by net -2 stats to every other elf and standard nwn race), and I don't think thats true.

CHa doesn't have much to do with whether they appear beautiful or not, CHA represents force of personality, manners, etc. rather than looks. Just checked the D&D 3.5 stats and Kagonesti do indeed get +2 DEX, -2 INT, -2 CHA. They are already hardier than other elves as they don't get a penalty to constitution.
Giving them a +2 STR would also feel weird, why would they have the same bonus/penalties as half-orcs AND a +2 DEX in addition without a further penalty?

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22404
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 11:09:28 AM »
Quote
In summary: My opinion is add a str/con bonus to the dex or remove the cha and any inbalance is corrected. Other subraces which are unbalanced does not seem like a valid counter argument as there needs to be some reason that they're inherently weaker than other types of that race. If you use it as an argument, it seems to me that you are saying Wild Elves are inferior (represented by net -2 stats to every other elf and standard nwn race), and I don't think thats true.

As Kendaric has pointed out (thanks for saving me the trouble to go through the Dragonlance Campaign Setting 3.5), the stats for the Kagonesti are taken straight from the source books, much like all our other subraces.

When I implemented them, my guiding principle was respecting the source books as much as possible (some minor alterations here and there since NwN has some limitations) and when a subrace couldn't be implemented because it was too different then it was left out. The reason I added the 50+ subraces we have was to give people a lot more roleplay options and allow them to come from different worlds and campaign settings, a major feature of Ravenloft as a setting.

Since we confirmed that the stats are correct and representative of the source material then there's no reason to change them.

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2014, 12:22:32 PM »
Should be updated then they get +2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha, instead of making it appear they had poor stats for a base race, compared to others.

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2014, 12:29:19 PM »
The stat line here is again +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?350252-Let-s-Read-Dragonlance-Campaign-Setting.

If you think that's weak, bear in mind that in 3E, physical abilities were generally undervalued versus mental ones; hence why half-orcs have an absolutely crappy stat block.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Feronius

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2082
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2014, 01:18:28 PM »
Since we confirmed that the stats are correct and representative of the source material then there's no reason to change them.

Well, wasn't the source material created for a PnP format? That isn't exactly compareable to an MMO game server.



Anyhow, so elves get +2 Dex and -2 Con, while Kagonesti elves get +2 Dex, -2 Int and -2 Cha. That sounds fair to me.

You're just exchanging a -2 Con for a -2 Int, as well as a -2 Cha penalty (I doubt Kagonesti have bards or sorcerers as a preferred class, so who cares?) because they're not exactly a charismatic subrace.
Or is the problem that they still get the -2 Con penalty on top of that which elves get by default? In that case I would agree giving them a +2 Con bonus to even it out seems fair and more accurate.

But giving them a +2 str doesn't make much sense and seems too much of the good stuff. Toughness is constitution, strength bonuses in races seem to usually equal a larger size. And Kagonesti aren't supposed to be bigger than other elves, are they?

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2014, 01:44:39 PM »
Str dont represent size, but they are idea hunters that work with spears instead of longswords.

as for their caster classes, nearly all arcane Kagonesti been Sorcs , as they revile their cousins, the Silvanesti whos favored class is wizard.

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22404
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2014, 02:01:28 PM »
Str dont represent size, but they are idea hunters that work with spears instead of longswords.

as for their caster classes, nearly all arcane Kagonesti been Sorcs , as they revile their cousins, the Silvanesti whos favored class is wizard.

Kagonesti's favorite class is Ranger actually, not sorcerer. I'm not sure where you get your information from but I would suggest you grab a copy of the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (3.5E, the only one made for 3E editions).

Feronius

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2082
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2014, 03:03:11 PM »
I said strength bonuses are usually given out to larger size subraces, not that the strength stat represents a character's size.
(Half-orcs, Gnolls, Tanarruk, etc. All of those have strength bonuses and are either larger or broader than your average race.)

So yes, a strength bonus often (not necessarily always the case) does seem to be related to the size of a subrace.


Either way, a subrace describes as tougher than your average elf would have an increased constitution, not strength. Else it had said physically stronger than your usual elf.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 03:05:47 PM by Feronius »

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2014, 04:43:01 PM »
Str dont represent size, but they are idea hunters that work with spears instead of longswords.

as for their caster classes, nearly all arcane Kagonesti been Sorcs , as they revile their cousins, the Silvanesti whos favored class is wizard.

Kagonesti's favorite class is Ranger actually, not sorcerer. I'm not sure where you get your information from but I would suggest you grab a copy of the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (3.5E, the only one made for 3E editions).

Excuse me, read carefully. I never said what their favored class was. I know well enough, what my campaign book says. Their arcane classes are few and very rare due to the nature of their culture and how magic works on Krynn.

ThePwush

  • Sigilian Outlander
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1773
  • The mad Red Mink, eh, I mean, Monk ;)
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2014, 10:25:34 PM »
Nevermind.

I've learned best not to comment when a bit under. have a good one!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 10:29:05 PM by ThePwush »
The "Anti-Monk". Crazy is your friend.

Rhetra'Bushion aka Rhetra, Sunshine, Petal, Spazz, "Damn, she's fast," and Her Giddiness.

-Semi-Retired-

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22404
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2014, 11:07:41 PM »
Excuse me, read carefully. I never said what their favored class was. I know well enough, what my campaign book says. Their arcane classes are few and very rare due to the nature of their culture and how magic works on Krynn.

My apologies, for some reason I missed the caster word. And you're right about arcane classes being rare for Kagonesti.

Maelithii

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 71
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2014, 07:53:58 AM »
A Kagonesti's beauty, leadership potential and charisma is not automatically hampered by their birth. Then again I never liked the way CHA is represented ingame but that aside. They're not uglier than other elves, they're looked down on. They are no less charismatic, charismatic individuals are that which they follow and there are more forms of it than simply being pretty to look at. Finally social graces are entirely situational, depending on the society.

In summary: My opinion is add a str/con bonus to the dex or remove the cha and any inbalance is corrected. Other subraces which are unbalanced does not seem like a valid counter argument as there needs to be some reason that they're inherently weaker than other types of that race. If you use it as an argument, it seems to me that you are saying Wild Elves are inferior (represented by net -2 stats to every other elf and standard nwn race), and I don't think thats true.

CHa doesn't have much to do with whether they appear beautiful or not, CHA represents force of personality, manners, etc. rather than looks.

Well aware of that though its a popular misconception to assume high CHA means your great looking (seen alot with Sorcs). I didnt wanna focus on explaining it all simply because it wasnt the point I was attempting to drive home. Its simply that Kagonesti are not inherently lacking in anything associated with charisma except from perhaps a stereotypical 'civilised' view point. And even then thats like saying a tribalistic people are not as charismatic as civilised peoples. Thats opinion entirely and social perceptions on 'manners' etc. Thus I consider it to be a rather lame statistic but then again this is a fairly old game and thats a reflection of my own feelings about it and why if balance was wanted, it'd be the best thing to strip away.

I still dont see why a cha penalty need apply beyond source material, but since its canon and thats what EO wanted, theres no point debating further. Also fair point about the str I didnt think of that. Still standing by con being a good idea to represent the hardships of a nomadic lifestyle but like I said, opinion only.

Edit: Just on sorcs. Druids and sorcs have more place in a culture like that than learned wizards (unless magic in Krynn equalises the difference between innates and learned in some way). Bards too as they are innate casters. So saying CHA is useless to them is wrong as far as im concerned. Source material may say they're not a 'charismatic' subrace but thats something everyone decides for themselves in reality so, yeah.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 08:08:31 AM by Maelithii »
Isenduril Mel'fesef: "We have nothing but time.."

xXCrystal_Rose

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 64
Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2014, 08:53:15 AM »
+2 dex (physical attribute) and -2 int and charisma seems fair. Physical points are worth twice as much according to the books. It is just like half orcs. Even so not all subraces have to be fair or balanced. Look at our little goblin friends for example! They get +2 dex, -2 str, -2 charisma. Does it need to be balanced? No, because they're goblins, and goblins aren't meant to have an equal tradeoff. This is just how they are. Not all races have to be equal and not everything has to be fair.