Author Topic: Lore and character level  (Read 5972 times)

ManticoreRO

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Lore and character level
« on: March 03, 2014, 02:24:48 PM »
  Now for some time I am getting more and more frustrated by the fact that it doesn't really matters how many times your character sees an item, he or she will not know what that is... because of the lore skill check. Now let's be honest. Even a five year old child will remember an item that it is showed to him after seeing it over and over again. What I propose is adding to the lore check the character level. Simple as that. The character will be able to identify common items but probably will fail for rarer ones, and lvl 10+ characters wont need to run around struggling to find someone with lore to identify the three bags of items they gathered. Especially when lore potions are not craftable and i havent seen a lore potion in loot for ages.
  Thoughts?
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Elfric

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 02:28:31 PM »
I've got the same feeling with spells, even when your character is told what that spells is. Really it's just chalking it up to NWN engine not allowing for such. Much like how skills and stats are misrepresented to the player character VS a common person.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 02:30:10 PM by Elfric »

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HellsPanda

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 02:30:35 PM »
The engine has limitations, we have to work with them. One of the solutions is to actually put points in lore if you want to know some basic stuff. And when it comes to magic items, even the ones that do the same will work slightly differently.

The same goes with casting spells, no wizard casts the same spell in the same way.

ManticoreRO

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 02:34:50 PM »
  I do not want to be a little angry bird right now but when an engine lets you add new classes/spells, I am sure it will let you make a simple addition. And when you have 3 skill points per level, you will need 2 levels to be able to identify a common item, meaning 6 usefull skill points.
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FullMoon

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 04:29:10 PM »
  I do not want to be a little angry bird right now but when an engine lets you add new classes/spells, I am sure it will let you make a simple addition. And when you have 3 skill points per level, you will need 2 levels to be able to identify a common item, meaning 6 usefull skill points.

I think you have just proven that those skill points are in fact useful, you just want to spend them on other things. The problem I have with a massive system change is everyone who has taken the time to have lore suddenly loses the advantage of that sacrifice. Lore is also a good rp tool, many a low level bard and mage has made a living telling people what their stuff does.

I do agree you have a valid point on identifying the same items over and over but there is lore gear around and a few classes that are naturals for it so there are plenty of easy ways to work around it.

Squeak

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2014, 04:54:23 PM »
The fact that spending a few points on lore makes it a handy skill, would have this change essentially making it a useless skill.

That being said with the +5 lore rings, torch (ankh) and helmet you can identify just about everything in game without spending a single point if you're willing to track down a few items and switch them on/off when you intend to be identifying things.

If you can't be bothered investing in the skill or in items for such, use it as an excuse to approach people and roleplay, haggle over pricing for such services and the like.

LackofCertainty

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 08:53:38 PM »
The problem is that the game can't represent the million different forms that a magic item can take.  Even though every +1 Longsword looks the same (until our PC's customize them at least) doesn't mean that there's a factory cranking out identical +1 longswords somewhere.  Each one was hand crafted, and so no two +1 Longswords would look exactly the same.  Some might be ornate, some might be simple, and some might even look identical to a normal longsword you could buy in vallaki.  They're all just called +1 longswords because they're enchanted swords with similar capabilities.  (or at least that's always been my take on magic items)

In an ideal world, every item would get a random icon for that item type, but I don't believe the engine allows for that.  Because we can't do that, you just have to deal with the identical looking icons, and not metagame that you know what [item X] is, just because you've seen that particular icon in the loot tables before.

...  with the +5 lore rings, torch (ankh) and helmet you can identify just about everything in game without spending a single point if you're willing to track down a few items and switch them on/off when you intend to be identifying things.

...

This actually bothers me a lot, because it completely invalidated the skill.  No skill should ever be rendered useless/unnecessary by items, because skills represent a much larger character investment than simply acquiring items.  I don't really see it getting changed, but it's just a huge pet peeve for me.

Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 09:02:32 PM »
You have to have more imagination than you are displaying. While the appearances of two magical items appear the same, they are not necessarily similar enough that a 5 year old would identify a rod of the ghost from a rod of lightning. Mechanically speaking two items can be identical but in usage, activation, appearance or flavor they can be different. Thats how I get by the system limitation.


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Mcskinns

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 09:57:31 PM »
I think the worst part of the whole identification system is that the stores are set to charge 100 gold to identify items, and until your hitting higher level dungeons your never going to get 100 coins from the shop after paying to have it ID'd. 

Some place like the Wizards tower, and the University, should have a place where they will ID items for much less(perhaps even 3-4% less than the standard store purchase percents)  This would allow players a chance to sell these items for more than 1gp as an unidentified item, would permit characters to turn a larger profit, would encourage more travel there by parties who do not have the Lore to do it themselves and potentially not the connections IC to have it done so cheaply.  Chances are it would require some scripting, perhaps similar to the fur table in the vistani camp.  Place items on the table and the NPC does a cursory examination and states his price(based on item value), if the player agrees the item gets toggled ID'd and they lose the coin.

Not everyone will want to make such a journey, and its always better to make connections and RP through other PC's, but sometimes you don't see your preferred player on for a time, or simply do not want other players aware of something you believe might be a rare artifact but lack the skill to ID on your own.

just my thoughts



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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 11:43:46 PM »
Yeah, but paying 100 gold to identify is one of D&Ds' classic low level conundrums. Only shame here is that we can not even try out or test an item.

I remember this old article hehe :  Identifying Magic Items


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Mcskinns

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2014, 12:42:22 AM »
Yeah, but paying 100 gold to identify is one of D&Ds' classic low level conundrums. Only shame here is that we can not even try out or test an item.

I remember this old article hehe :  Identifying Magic Items

I see your point, but if we want to help generate that feeling of 'distrust of magic', what sense does it make for a common barovian shopkeep to have the lore to ID items themselves?  Furthermore, they should offer coin purely on item type and level of quality, not based on the inherent magical properties they offer.  In fact, most shops wouldn't purchase an item that displayed magical properties, purely for the distrust they themselves have, or for the fact they can be branded a witch for dealing in such. 

We have limitations in place by the game engine, the time and feasibility for creating custom systems that are 'worth it' and 'non-cumbersome' for the game to handle.  While I can see the simplicity of leaving the cost to ID items as is and letting players find IC ways to figure it out.  There simply are not enough items out there in mid to low level areas that can justify ever spending the coin to ID them.  It could easily be limited to certain shops, with a lower price such that players must seek them out to have them revealed.  High level areas could have similar shops that cost more to reflect the economy of the region.  Players could still travel to the cheaper places, if they felt like carrying the items across the server to do so.




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Squeak

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 07:24:34 AM »

...  with the +5 lore rings, torch (ankh) and helmet you can identify just about everything in game without spending a single point if you're willing to track down a few items and switch them on/off when you intend to be identifying things.

...

This actually bothers me a lot, because it completely invalidated the skill.  No skill should ever be rendered useless/unnecessary by items, because skills represent a much larger character investment than simply acquiring items.  I don't really see it getting changed, but it's just a huge pet peeve for me.

The item's I referred to, the Ankh is a rather expensive and at times difficult item to find, Vistani often sell for over 6500 gp . . .  the helmet is semi rare, but not impossible to come across if you put some work into it, if you were to buy from an NPC merchant I believe it's around 3000-4000 gp, the rings are a lower level piece of loot and I'm afraid I don't really come by them, but as Manitcore hadn't choosen to simply use them instead of suggesting this I'd hazard a guess they're not overly common. . .

In short, to cover all bases with such without spending a single point in lore would cost a tidy investment, sure an investment that would pay for itself in it's usefulness, but item's should be usable in things that aren't merely combat related.

That being said my one character has sufficient lore skill to id most high end gear without the use of such objects even though he likely carries multiples of each in his various bags.  To me the skill points invested were useful in him actually having some degree of knowledge and not having to swap out gear all of the time to find minor objects after running around dungeoning with a group.

All I was doing with my reply was stating that the server really does not require the proposed system added, to give player's a bonus to lore based on their character level just because certain classes lack skill points on level up and they've not invested in more then 11 intelligence.

I should also like to note that 13 lore is enough to identify most objects available in the loot pool (as 13 lore will identify anything upto 6500 gp base value) due to the value cap on lootable items. . . and the few items you can't identify with such are well worth the 100 gold spent identifying them and are generally insanely rare.

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2014, 07:39:17 AM »
I really like the idea of players travelling to places like the wizard's tower and university to get their items identified very inexpensively. It makes alot of thematic sense.

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 08:27:38 AM »
You can buy the +5 rings. They are dirt common.

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 02:02:03 PM »
You can buy the +5 rings. They are dirt common.
Lore is like spot, tbh. People who can do it say how it's too easy, people who can't say how it's too hard.

I really like the idea of players travelling to places like the wizard's tower and university to get their items identified very inexpensively. It makes alot of thematic sense.
This would be cool. So cool I just shivered.

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2014, 04:59:58 PM »
But you can't buy +5 spot rings from two vendors in vallaki alone for about 1-2k a piece lol.

Feronius

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2014, 07:36:31 PM »
I really like the idea of players travelling to places like the wizard's tower and university to get their items identified very inexpensively. It makes alot of thematic sense.

On the one hand this is an incredibly cool idea. On the other hand, this is going to get immensely tedious really fast.
Perhaps as an alternative option though, especially for the extremely rare artifacts you would want an expert to look at.

Kendric98

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2014, 12:04:31 AM »
Lore should be an avalible Feat for wizards and bards only that allows identification of any and all magic items. All others should have to go to the wizards tower for identification..or to a wizard or bard. As for the points invested in the skill return them to the player somehow or allow to remake the chr.

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2014, 12:22:35 AM »
Lore should be an avalible Feat for wizards and bards only that allows identification of any and all magic items. All others should have to go to the wizards tower for identification..or to a wizard or bard. As for the points invested in the skill return them to the player somehow or allow to remake the chr.

Bards allready gain that. It is called bardic knowledge.
And giving the same to the wizards, whereas their lore skill investment should represent the time invested in learning about all those items out there from books and other sources...seems flawed.
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Kendric98

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2014, 05:51:30 AM »
Lore should be an avalible Feat for wizards and bards only that allows identification of any and all magic items. All others should have to go to the wizards tower for identification..or to a wizard or bard. As for the points invested in the skill return them to the player somehow or allow to remake the chr.

Bards allready gain that. It is called bardic knowledge.
And giving the same to the wizards, whereas their lore skill investment should represent the time invested in learning about all those items out there from books and other sources...seems flawed.
Why do bards get it as apprentices before level one ?

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2014, 08:02:39 AM »
Honestly just chipping in with I loath the recent idea's . . . about forcing players to travel long distances ingame to visit an NPC or removing an entire skill which represents knowledge, more then mere item properties to make it so only wizards and bards can do such.

That being said, bards get a bonus lore point every level without any investment.
Wizards generally have insanely high INT allowing them to spend a few points on lore among many other skills, the INT modifier also helps them greatly not to mention fox cunning, identify and legendary lore can all make it so you merely need to spend 0-9 points in lore to identify everything on the server. 

I believe 14 lore allows you to identify items upto a base item cost of 6500gp (considering most item costs are below such with a few rare exceptions) and if said wizard has 20 INT which is very much likely by the point of level 12 they will likely be using fox cunning to increase dc's anyway allowing them 6-7 lore without a single point spent.
Level 14 bard? heh no need for a single point spent.

Lore is a skill that represents your characters knowledge (generally it has many different types, but we work with what we've got. . . ), your intelligence is the ability that represents your ability to learn.  If you're unwilling to invest in both or the many various alternatives already present or even asking another person to identify stuff for you, such is kind of something your character should deal with for not investing any time learning such instead of spending all of their points in tumble or parry to better fight.

I'd say offer alternatives but don't nerf a skill that is already rather fair nor make it useless . . . if the travelling to a wizard tower was merely to allow a player a 10-25 gp per item identified I'd be all for allowing it, so long as the lore skill in it's current use is left be.

Feronius

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2014, 11:36:07 AM »
Also keep in mind that not every rare object per definition has to be magical in origin and nature.
I'd like to think lore does have something to do with folklore and knowledge, not just the recognising magic stuff.

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2014, 11:49:33 AM »
The suggestion was that there be a discount if you get things ID'd at the university, which doesn't force anyone there. You could still have a player ID it or take it to any other NPC and do it at the regular rate.

And lore isn't just a wizard or bard skill. What about the wisdom based classes? From an IC standpoint, lore makes sense for them too. Or rogues. Especially rogues, since they steal things and a lot of objects pass through their hands. Or even the seasoned warrior who's seen a lot of loot in his time and heard a lot of stories.

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2014, 01:12:40 PM »
I think it's a pointless argument since there are combinations of items that will give your character 20 lore.  If you can't be bothered to take the skill ranks or find a couple of items, I am sorry for you, but that doesn't mean the skill should be further marginalized.  It's a skill of convenience, and if you don't have the skill, you don't get the convenience.

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Re: Lore and character level
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2014, 01:48:30 PM »
I think it's a pointless argument since there are combinations of items that will give your character 20 lore.  If you can't be bothered to take the skill ranks or find a couple of items, I am sorry for you, but that doesn't mean the skill should be further marginalized.  It's a skill of convenience, and if you don't have the skill, you don't get the convenience.

Agreed.  There are plenty of ways to boost lore, particularly from equipment and lore potions. Never mind that several classes receive the skill as a class skill (a quick and incomplete look says nine classes get it), and the investment cost is minor to be proficient at the skill. Most of the time, I can ID items just with lore rings and zero skill points invested into the lore skill.

I think creating NPC's to do something that a player could do detracts from the social goals of the server - seeking out other players for collaboration.
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