Atmosphere in gothic horror and monsters

[RedwizardD]

For some time now there have been conversations cropping up through various ooc channels about how the prevalence of monsters (In particular Werewolves and to a lesser extent vampires) is actually adversely impacting the setting. Gothic horror is mean to be one of suspense and social/emotion terror. Used sparingly such monsters can lend to this feeling quite well. If they are a common sight however, they lose their mystery and become more of a nuisance not unlike rats. If every wolf is a were-creature, or that dungeon is always overflowing with vampires it is little wonder that people might disregard that atmospheric fear inherent to the setting both in character and out. This is not to say having them at all is bad. These two kinds of monsters just appear over-used.

One suggestion that has been passed around is altering some dungeons to contain their more mundane counterparts with a boss or two of the type the dungeon currently show cases. An example suggested to me has been to make the majority of the 'werewolf cave' be primarily wolves/large wolves on all spawn difficulties, saving the werewolves of various rankings to be scattered sparsely through out and/or confined the the boss room where they would make sense to be given the story of the dungeon. It adds significant impact if used to spice an encounter instead of consisting entirely of them. In the terg crypts the number of vampires could be downplayed slightly in favor of lesser varieties of undead like barrow wights and ghouls. Even adding a few of those stone hound creatures to the existing vampires patrols would make them seem less monotonious. Another possibility could include giving them a few human thralls.

Another thought is to reduce the number of night spawn werewolves. What if one or two randomly selected wolves on a given map can become a werewolf? If it is not expected for every single wolf to turn into werewolf, it adds an element of terror on the occasion some fellow disregards the warning about traveling at night and DOES get attacked. Personally I think it would be interesting if a single extremely powerful werewolf could spawn at night along the svalich road and then roam its length from the eastern farms to the abandoned inn.

These are just some thoughts that have been kicked around in the past few months, some of which I can agree with. Feel free to add your own ideas or opinions on the subject.

[ladylena]

As an idea to help make 'monsters' scary again, would be maybe revamp the dungeons with human/caliban/etc of varying levels and classes, sort of similar to Port a Lucine, maybe making the bosses actual monsters or something. It does seem like the monsters are so common that they don't prove to be any source of fear amongst the player base.

Of course this is just an idea.

[Elfric]

I do find that fighting excessive amounts of monster, and I mean -monsters- not animal nor people, breaking a DnD horror setting, if not all horror settings.

The reason? Well look at Amnesia: Dark Decent when someone encounters their first creature and does their best to hide from it. The first reaction was brown pants all around, yet as more and more monsters showed up people weren't afraid. Instead they tried as much as possible to break the game by holding props towards them, bunny hopping, and general idiotic stuff because the fear of them was gone. Maybe because they played the game too much, maybe because it's the fact they weren't frighten in the first place. Yet for most, it was simply due to the servants being over used and down right comical appearance [Take a look at the concept art, they're wearing little suites! So adorable.]

Heck one can compare Alien to the sequel, Aliens. Simply by changing a few key elements they become two different Genre of movie. Alien the horror film evolves into Aliens the action thriller. Why? Because the creatures are in massive numbers and are frequently seen compared to the original. The original Alien movie didn't even have a monster until the 40 minute mark.

The less you see of the monster stalking you, the more frighting the experience.

[Badelaire]

look at Amnesia: Dark Decent

The frequency of something and the knowledge of how to counter it does make it less dangerous and impacting, especially when you're armed to the teeth and loaded for Balor.

[Budly]

Well mister hot shot lvl 5 faerunite would not be that well armed or knowledgeable to smack something he only heard of from that drunk man at the inn back home in Adventure Town Nr. 24131 on the road to Thethyr

[Badelaire]

Well mister hot shot lvl 5 faerunite would not be that well armed or knowledgeable to smack something he only heard of from that drunk man at the inn back home in Adventure Town Nr. 24131 on the road to Thethyr

Ahem. Tethyr is a magnet for adventurers because of the vast array of things to fight there, it's a frontier nation under threat and Zarander Star actively seeks the aid of mercenary types to help her people. There was even a 2nd Ed Ravenloft hook that originated from there. As much as you bleat about Faerun, you do realise the Forgotten Realms is steeped in magic and gods that walk the earth right? Someone who chooses the life of an adventurer knows what they're getting into.

[Exordium]

Well mister hot shot lvl 5 faerunite would not be that well armed or knowledgeable to smack something he only heard of from that drunk man at the inn back home in Adventure Town Nr. 24131 on the road to Thethyr

Ahem. Tethyr is a magnet for adventurers because of the vast array of things to fight there, it's a frontier nation under threat and Zarander Star actively seeks the aid of mercenary types to help her people. There was even a 2nd Ed Ravenloft hook that originated from there. As much as you bleat about Faerun, you do realise the Forgotten Realms is steeped in magic and gods that walk the earth right? Someone who chooses the life of an adventurer knows what they're getting into.

Well, it's not necessarily as steeped in magic as may be assumed from the PC games and books. Many of the gods wield +3 weapons and +1 is something quite exquisite for those around level 5 and common shops are not packed with magical items. But true, gods walk the land on occasion and there are several regions that are pretty much infested with every kind of a monster.

Alas, level 5 isn't a novice anymore either. A standard werewolf's CR is 3, so a party of level 5s should be able to plausibly clear large packs of them. A level 5 may also been with a party that killed a vampire, or a succubus, or other such beast(s).

If we're speaking from PnP point of view, then many our monsters are often actually more mundane than what the levels we have would be facing. Regardless, it's a valid point on gothic horror and the effect that the abundance of monsters has. It's a hard balance to find -- There are other things to consider than pure canonical atmosphere. But I'll personally try to take this into account when/if I do dungeon(s) and outdoor areas.

[monsinyana]

i wish there was more effort to make us all play with the same restrictions as the local guarda. then youd see how well balanced and scary the server really is

once you strip away all the gear and knowing if you die, youre permed its an entirely different experience.

[OITF]

I rather think the death system sort of plays a part in diminishing the atmosphere. There seems to be a cultivated idea that death is ultimately not that big a deal, because they can just be dropped off at the nearest temple and ressurected for measly sums (provided the body isn't completely trash-canned.). That and the prevalence of OOC rescues (guilty.) by friends, there isn't really anything that stops people from fearing death except maybe during DM events where you can be perma'd.

That, and the fact that after a certain point, a few werewolves in the Outskirts can safely be pub-stomped. Doesn't really make for a scary atmosphere, though personally I disagree with the stonking huge amount of DR the werewolves seem to have.

[RedwizardD]

You will never be able to enforce fear of death oocly, only make it aggravating and stressful. If you wish to discuss the death system or faerun, please start another topic. This is topic was intended to discuss how everyone feels about the impact of the way monsters are used on the server.

I think Ladylena made a fair point about humanoid/non-monstrous enemies. A part of Ravenloft's theme is morality and the social horrors. There is little conflict of conscience in cutting down scrags  or night-creatures. People do seem to become conflicted if the enemy happens to a human waif.

[Tyras]

As far as actual monsters go.  They are common.  The werewolves in the areas near Vallaki are very common and once one has got a few levels under their belt they are easily managed.

A suggestion would be to make them more rare, more random, and much more powerful.  Don't give them an XP value though or more powerful characters would be tempted to farm them.

Ghosts.  In a place with soo much death, and under horror enducing conditions why are there so few ghosts?  Why do player ghosts not have a fear aura?  Yeah ghostly creatures are a pain, but they are a definite deterrent to evening jaunts and social gatherings in places near graves such as the outskirts with graves behind the Lady's rest and in the cemetary across the road.  Again... not a common thing, but random, and horrifyingly powerful with little to no XP or treasure.

Vampires being the top of the monster food chain are not very fearsome.  I understand the Terg ruins are of a level appropriate to those characters in the area, but it makes me sad that it is a place that, absent DM or MPC intervention, is a loot farm for characters as low as level 8.  Is it possible to have Lyssa abandon the place for story purposes and keep the place a level appropriate dungeon with lesser undead there lurking in the decaying ruins and have vampires be elevated to a status of dread?  A new dungeon perhaps?  One that inspires fear even in the jaded cynical adventurers.  The Von Zarovich family deserves nothing less.

A few observations and suggestions.

[Theorem Of Neutrality]

I think the way the module uses monsters is consistent with the way they're used in Ravenloft PnP, depending upon the DM's style. Our medium has limitations - mainly that we can't always be overseen by a DM who can set the mood and use proper timing and the like. We also have to grapple with the fact that, while PoTM is a gothic horror server, it has elements of action-adventure and high fantasy. You can't escape these influences. The server manages to reconcile these various elements into what I personally feel is a harmonious whole. That's what I've always loved most about it - there is that sense of impending dread, there's a general ambiance of gothic horror with dashes of action here or there.

NwN cannot re-create the sense of helplessness and pure, visceral horror you experience in a survival horror game like Amnesia. It's just not possible - anything you try to do will just be irritating for those seeking to play NwN. So, you have to find a balance.

There was one night where Zivon and a party where getting back to Vallaki from a run through the Werewolf caves - everyone was beaten and bloodied. Well - it just so happened that a horde of dozens of werewolves were waiting for us along the road. That was scary, and entirely the result of the spawn scripts. So, while I agree that frequency and consistency are horror-killers, there isn't always frequency and consistency. A lot of the ideas in this thread are good, but they all face the same problem - they'll quickly suffer from both frequency and consistency.

tl;dr: Not moderated, server has a good compromise between horror and action elements. For the real horror experiences, you need a DM. That's just the limitations of the engine, folks.