How do you play your crisis of Faith?

[MAB77]

I am curious, the "Unspoken Pact" says

When a cleric enters Ravenloft from another world, she immediately feels a hollowness slip into her heart, a void that the strength and compassion of her deity once filled. Although clerics continue to receive the blessings of their divine patrons, they no longer feel their gods at their side. This absence often causes clerics new to the Land of Mists to suffer crises of faith or pass through periods of deep depression.

For natives of the Land of Mists, this remoteness is perfectly normal; they expect the gods to be distant and inscrutable as a matter of common sense. Some clerics in Ravenloft claim to be the direct vessel of their respective deities, but these folk are widely regarded as madmen and false messiahs.

Without the gods' watchful eyes to monitor all that is said and done in their name, many imported religions experience a "theological shift." As godly legends are passed from one mortal to another, religious teachings often adapt to their new homelands, or even evolve to suit the specific needs of powerful clerics. Tales even exist of clerics who betrayed the core beliefs of their faith yet kept their divine powers. As an example, rumors insist that the grand religion of the Shadowlands, dedicated to the neutral good deity Belenus, is actually steeped in evil practices.

So to you all clerics and paladins of outlander gods, I wonder, how do you play out your crisis of Faith and what theological shifts would you suggest to your respective Faiths?

For some it is easy and the path is already traced, Lathender Morninglord became the Ravenloft's Morninglord, Bane became the Lawgiver. But I'd like to hear about other imported religions and how you would suggest to adapt them for the setting.

[Jalthex]

My first divine character on Ravenloft was a crusader from Gothic Earth. His crisis was extreme, since he also couldn't understand those around him (I roleplayed him as not knowing Common, die hard style.) His crisis wasn't long, mostly due to my abandoning the character, but also because he was a paladin and so he would be more vigilant than maybe a cleric of a less dogmatic deity. (God is pretty dogmatic...)

For most of my other characters the crisis brought about depression, like what you quoted. However, I've been most active with my native characters so I haven't really delved that far into the idea. Recently I've had a character slowly convert to the faith of Ezra, but he was only a lay priest so still the effect has been minimized.

I've been toying with the idea of creating a paladin who worships the "Threefold God" (The Eye of Justice heresy that claims Torm as having subsumed the divine essences of both Helm and Tyr,) which would be an interesting faith to morph within Ravenloft, especially given how many current characters would shun such a belief.

[Tyras]

I guess like any other crisis of faith.  Depression, doubt, anger, and a period of introspect before deciding that the beliefs held before becoming distanced or cut off are worthy of being carried on either as a continuing believer of that faith acting alone or in a group of like minded or by finding an alternative, but similar faith, or on the other side, abandoning their beliefs either in a depression induced apathy or a rage fueled rebellion/fall.  A crisis of faith can lead to a stronger believer or a spiteful heretic.  Both are entertaining to play out.  I avoid RL religions in play in respect for the beliefs of those who may hold those faiths as their own and would not see them characatured or somehow lessened by groupng them in with fantasy genre faiths.

[ponygold]

I guess like any other crisis of faith.  Depression, doubt, anger, and a period of introspect before deciding that the beliefs held before becoming distanced or cut off are worthy of being carried on either as a continuing believer of that faith acting alone or in a group of like minded or by finding an alternative, but similar faith, or on the other side, abandoning their beliefs either in a depression induced apathy or a rage fueled rebellion/fall.  A crisis of faith can lead to a stronger believer or a spiteful heretic.

I agree with this.

The biggest thing (that I have found) when playing a PC if faith is to seriously sit down and think "what if I was in his/her shoes". A cleric or paladin should definitely have some sort of internal battle upon entering the Mists... Your entire life is turned upside down in an instant and there is no "god" to turn to anymore; you're completely lost and on your own. It should not be something you casually walk off and/or look over, and whatever path chosen should be something that takes TIME. If you spent 30 years as a priest, it is unlikely you will drop your faith and give up in a few days in Ravenloft.

[swbf2lord]

Though you're only a level 2 cleric entering in so.... -probably- you weren't a priest for 30 years. Probably.

[Tyras]

Though you're only a level 2 cleric entering in so.... -probably- you weren't a priest for 30 years. Probably.

Even non clergy can have a crisis of faith though. 

[swbf2lord]

Though you're only a level 2 cleric entering in so.... -probably- you weren't a priest for 30 years. Probably.

Even non clergy can have a crisis of faith though. 

"If you spent 30 years as a priest, it is unlikely you will drop your faith and give up in a few days in Ravenloft. "

*cough cough*

That was what I was replying to.

[APorg]

Though you're only a level 2 cleric entering in so.... -probably- you weren't a priest for 30 years. Probably.

Starting at middle age (40-50's) isn't against the rules; having an epic background is. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to come through the mists having been a cleric or priest for 30 years -- as long as they don't claim to have been the Supreme Asskicking Pontiff of Awesome from the Planet Stupendous.

[Tyras]

Noted, but there are different places within a church where a priest might not be of the station to perform the blessings, rituals, or miracles depending on how ya want to see the cleric class spells.  A part of a church for a long period of time, but not initiated to the point of learning the spells.  Age or time within a church does not neccessarily equate to level, though it would affect how one would have a crisis of faith.  There's no one right way to play these sorts of things.  

[swbf2lord]

Though you're only a level 2 cleric entering in so.... -probably- you weren't a priest for 30 years. Probably.

Starting at middle age (40-50's) isn't against the rules; having an epic background is. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to come through the mists having been a cleric or priest for 30 years -- as long as they don't claim to have been the Supreme Asskicking Pontiff of Awesome from the Planet Stupendous.

Generally, you're not going to be a level 2 cleric, if you've been in the church for 30 years as a priest. You learn as you go, and certainly you'll learn more than a level 2 would have, which is the issue. Your PC can only come in knowing/having the skills a level 2 PC would have, which I said -probably- (which is the operative word here), the experience of a priest of 30 years exceeds that of a level 2 cleric. This is someone who's been involved in the church since birth, really, coming from a very devoted family. And epic backgrounds, are to me, RPing your character as having greater skills and experience that would fit a level 2 character (within a reasonable margin). This doesn't mean to say that you have to have, say, a young, 15 year old kid, but what he's known in his life, can't be very extreme. Like, a level 2 cleric isn't going to be unflaggingly, and unwaveringly devoted to his deity, because the connection simply isn't that close. A high level, or even mid-level cleric, sure. But we come in at -level 2-.

This is how I've always seen it, anyways.

[Exordium]

It's not really much of a problem to have an older character be a level 2 priest. It'd be a hugely limiting factor if backgrounds where one was 50 years old and had been 30 years in service of his church were forbidden. When it gets awkward is when you've a 18 years old character who was the pack leader of Malarite group in Cormyr and wanted for his crimes all over the Realms, and who was feared even by king Azoun IV himself... And then pops to Ravenloft at the whoppin' level of 2. I see backgrounds like that every so often.

Regardless, in most settings, Forgotten Realms included, level 2 isn't necessarily a novice anymore. Often novices are level 1 or no actual levels in cleric/paladin.

The thought of having an old level 2 village priest who just never advanced further because there was no necessity to, isn't particularly implausible.

For some it is easy and the path is already traced, Lathender Morninglord became the Ravenloft's Morninglord, Bane became the Lawgiver. But I'd like to hear about other imported religions and how you would suggest to adapt them for the setting.

Those wouldn't necessarily be the same gods. I, for one, wouldn't think that Bane and the Lawgiver were one and the same. Too far apart. The church of Lawgiver would most likely be all weiiird to a Banite.

What goes to roleplaying the separation from their gods on my outlander characters -- It depends a lot on the personality of the involved character. Typically their idea of divinity and the meaning of religion change and they start to believe that men choose gods, not the other way around. They may also grow a little more zealous in their will to continue do the god's creed, after they've gotten over the sad fact that they don't feel the deep connection anymore. Be zealous enough, and you wont do wrong even when the god doesn't hold your hand.

[MAB77]

Those wouldn't necessarily be the same gods. I, for one, wouldn't think that Bane and the Lawgiver were one and the same. Too far apart. The church of Lawgiver would most likely be all weiiird to a Banite.

I can certainly understand that point of view, but I disagree. Yes it will seem weird to a Banite at first but more than enough similarities remains. Remember, those crisis of Faith are suggested to introduce a theological shift to better fit the setting. Bane, as the FR conquering tyrant god he is, in a world where no conquests can occur (except during conjonctions) is not working very well.

As such In 2nd edition Ravenloft the theological shift for the church of Bane was that "it preaches that those who rule do so through divine providence. Bane punishes most severely all who would attempt to reach above their station. It should come of no surprise that the doctrine of Bane holds that he is the highest of all gods worshipped in the Demiplane." So you see he is still a tyrant god demanding the obedience of all. The very essence of Bane, even though it is explained differently.

For legal reasons they could not use the name Bane any longer for 3rd edition, but they kept the exact same line of thought for the Lawgiver. I don't find it too hard to imagine that a Banite from Faerun could come to the conclusion that the Lawgiver is the form his god chose to manifest himself in this world. It is the essence, the ideal of what the gods represents that clerics worships. They do not worship a name, a god may have many names.

I also believe Banites players are depriving themselves of a great opportunity to explore the canon lore of Ravenloft and expend from there. For instance you will probably never see a church of Bane added in the mod. A temple to the Lawgiver now... (there is probably even one already in Hazlan).

[Exordium]

A temple to the Lawgiver now... (there is probably even one already in Hazlan).

There are a few churchs of Lawgiver, not only in Hazlan.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to really argue whether it's absolute fact that Bane is - or isn't - the Lawgiver. The point was more that neither is given. There are some quite large differences -- For example, there's a stronger sense of human-centrity in the church of the Lawgiver, with the other races being inherently more sinful. While Bane is lawful, he opposes many other lawful gods strongly. Lawgiver's church doesn't in that same kind of a way. There's no certainty that Lawgiver == Bane, but there's no certainty either that Lawgiver != Bane. I'm sure, though, that at the first sight, the church of Lawgiver would seem unfamiliar to a Banite. How it develops from that, is of course up to the character and the player.

[Paragonville]

Bane and the Lawgiver WERE the same god.  However, after his death, the Dark Powers took over in the Demiplane.  The names are both used in the setting.  Lawgiver is just another name.  They are still called Banites.

Banites would still get their spells in the Demiplane, even if he is actually dead in the current timeline.  Dark Powers, yo.

[MAB77]

There's no certainty that Lawgiver == Bane

Actually, you're wrong. Bluebomber (whom his kinda the highest authority around regarding the in-game lore on the server), commented as follow in several different threads. Therefore, every Banites/Lawgiver followers should acknowledge that they are one and the same god. But this of course does not prevents FR Banites and Ravenloft Banites from accusing each others of heresy.

Bear in mind that the Lawgiver is the FR deity Bane (and is still called Bane by many worshipers in Ravenloft--White Wolf just didn't have the license to use that name in the 3E Ravenloft books). It's a slightly altered version of Bane's religion due to being seperated in the demiplane for a few decades.

As previously mentionned, were I to play a Banite (and I intend too, once Koryan dies) I would rationalize this in-game by believing that the Lawgiver is how Bane chose to manifest himself in this world (Ravenloft). To not conform to his vision would be an heresy which should be harshly purged from Banites holding to tenets from a foreign world.

Thing is, the "Lawgiver" name wasn't used until 3rd edition, and even then it was only because the 3rd edition Ravenloft books were written by a 3rd party under license who believed they were not allowed to use names from other settings (which is why 3e books refer to Soth only as "The Black Rose"). In 2nd edition books he was still called Bane, even though the religion was different. It is supposed to be the same deity, and the name "Bane" is not unfamiliar or unknown. I'm sure that FR Banites and Ravenloft Banites would accuse each other as heretics, though FR Banites would have a distinct disadvantage due to low numbers, no back up, and being unable to directly speak to their god while in the demiplane.

I think it's stated somewhere that to say Bane's true name as a Lawgiver is a heinous act for speaking the name of divinity with a mortal tongue and few FR Banites beyond the clergy actually call him Bane so casually, referring to him as the Dread Lord, Black Hand, Dread Father, Tyrant Lord and more subservient forms of address as would befit servants to a master. I'd need to go drag through resources to clarify that first part.

Again, that was done only in 3rd edition books as an attempt to explain in IC terms the problem with the licensing issue. I find it rather silly (as is the "don't call Soth by his real name thing") and tend to ignore it since we're not under the same license issues.

[...] Native worshippers don't know him as Bane, they know him as The Lawgiver. It is said any who heard his true name would be struck dead. Only those really in the know of how the dimension works probably know him as "Bane".  [...]

That's actually not accurate. As I said earlier, the publishers of the 3rd edition books couldn't use the name Bane. In all 2nd edition Ravenloft books he's referred to by the name of Bane. As we are not bound by the legal/licensing issues that Arthaus was, I see no reason not to call him Bane.

So, no, there should be no questions whatsoever that Bane and the Lawgiver are one and the same.

But we are diverging from my original question. For instance I would like to see suggestions as to how would outlander churches such as of Torm, Tyr or Takhisis' tenets could shift over time in Ravenloft.

[Exordium]

There's no certainty that Lawgiver == Bane

Bluebomber (whom his kinda the highest authority around regarding the in-game lore on the server), commented as follow in several different threads.

That's not very relevant. This forum section is about Ravenloft specifically, not PoTM.

Therefore, every Banites/Lawgiver followers should acknowledge that they are one and the same god.

No, that's not really plausible. There's no certainty whatsoever given to FR Banites that Ravenloft Lawgiver was their god. They may, though, believe so.

[...] Native worshippers don't know him as Bane, they know him as The Lawgiver. It is said any who heard his true name would be struck dead. Only those really in the know of how the dimension works probably know him as "Bane".  [...]

That's actually not accurate. As I said earlier, the publishers of the 3rd edition books couldn't use the name Bane. In all 2nd edition Ravenloft books he's referred to by the name of Bane. As we are not bound by the legal/licensing issues that Arthaus was, I see no reason not to call him Bane.

So, no, there should be no questions whatsoever that Bane and the Lawgiver are one and the same.

I know the history behind the name and behind the Lawgiver's church's history, but when I say that it's not necessarily true that Lawgiver is the very same as Bane, I mean that it's not known (and that's made quite clear in the sourcebooks) whether it is Bane who gives the Divine powers to the followers of Lawgiver in Ravenloft.

Whether it was decided that on this particular server they are the same gods in current day Ravenloft, does not mean that the PCs were aware of such a decision-- They would not, and it'd be up their character alone to believe one way or the other. It's very much supposed to be that way -- Unknown. And because of the certain largish differences of the churches, I'd find it hard for majority of FR Banites to accept the church of the Lawgiver. They're both very strong about their believes and don't accept deviations easily.

This is, of course, not to say that it was impossible for a FR Banite to turn to the church of the Lawgiver or that it wasn't a source of good RP. It certainly can be!

EDIT, addentum: I think FR Bane's church and Ravenloft Bane's/Lawgiver's church are quite good showcases of how faiths may grow to have distinct differences over time. In a way, Lawgiver's church is much milder in its stances and does not as fiercely oppose almost everyone.

Similar changes could happen to say, a follower of Torm. He may grow less absolute in the Domains of Dread -- Though equally much the opposite could happen. After all, if you smite just to be sure, you'll rarely let evil escape. Gods will take care of the few innocents that go with them!

[Geiger]

I think the name Bane should be avoided from a reverent perspective. Like - only his clerics might say his name as they are the only ones worthy lol.

[LackofCertainty]

To the OP:
I rped out my cleric's crisis of faith by having him believe that the distance from his god was a test.  He tried to act as a paragon of (his god's) virtue.  In his early days, he stuck to his code fervently, but as time went on he started to slip here and there.  Eventually, he was shown how powerless he was to hold to his plan, and he basically had to turn a blind eye to his failings.  Around that point, he realized that he had already abandoned his god in all but name and took the coward's way out.

There's plenty of ways you can go about rp'ing your character's crisis.  The important thing is just to make sure that it has some effect on your character. (even if that effect is just your character trying their best to not think about it)