You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Summoning Spells  (Read 8657 times)

Indigocell

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Summoning Spells
« on: February 14, 2014, 09:27:05 PM »
How do people feel about using the summoning spells on this server? My impression is that they are not worthwhile at all given their relative weakness and their extremely short durations.  I notice that the Planar Binding spells (summon version) have also had their durations limited.

Does anyone have much experience with summons, low level and high, that can shed some light on this for me?  If the summoning spells truly aren't viable, should we change them so they are?

My initial suggestion would be to either buff them a little, or increase their durations.  However, I expect that has already been suggested and shot down before. :(

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, based only on past experiences with other servers.  To be fair though, the spawns on this server are much more challenging from what I remember.  If the summons are still the same as they are in vanilla, than I expect they are quite weak in comparison.

In any case, I don't want any trouble.  I just always thought summoning was one of the coolest parts of being a spellcaster, whether you are a druid, sorcerer, cleric, or wizard, and it's unfortunate how underrepresented it seems to be.

RedwizardD

  • Scrollord
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1001
  • Avoid Attention - Critical Failure
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 09:45:15 PM »
To my understanding the standard summons and binding spells were nerfed on purpose.

Norture

  • Still noobin' it up.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3516
  • ???
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 11:21:15 PM »
The vast, vast majority of them are really horrible. And it's probably not something that's going to be adjusted, it's been brought up in the past.

Sinful_Wishes

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 03:00:07 AM »
I feel like summons are rather balanced for where they are at, except that I think that NWN's default theme is pretty lame for the setting..

Level 1-4, a summon (specifically the dire wolf, or spider) can be a rather decent addition to a part for its temporary battle. 5-6 make for very decent imprompt tanks in bad situations.  7+ are extremely potent.. considering they have DR.


Summons shouldn't really be a replacement to the party experience, just a situational benefit. If a caster could go through an entire dungeon with their summon spells (which in some cases, depending on level and what they're trying to do, they can)   Its not really a balanced gameplay, that player doesn't have any reason to party with other people and promotes soloing

And to note: The longer the summon duration is, the more practical it is to use your buff spells on it.. so thats why its so short. Considering I've seen a certain spell on the server solo-clear dungeons that people consider "hard", after being buffed, definitely a thing to stay away from.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 03:08:50 AM by Sėdhel »
Oswald: I vanted a bag of traps, but all I got vas genitals.
Ophelia: I got Osvald's bag of traps, now I'm forever encumberedt.

Winter83

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 995
  • 100% Ranger
    • The hunter's query
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2014, 03:22:37 AM »
Always handy to summy a dire-teddy for the upcoming battle. Can buy you precious time !


The Perfect Circle: The Hollow : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avgiqNapUx0

Meriana

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2014, 08:06:27 AM »
My main gripe with short summons is that they can barely function in RP. "Behold, my great large.... boar.... oh... gone... well, damn."

The old suggestion about having summons first begin to countdown to their destruction when combat is initiated would neatly solve that, though.

DM Cataclysm

  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1774
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 11:34:21 AM »
This has been brought up before as well, but I think one of the biggest changes I'd like to see is the ability to select the type of elemental that is summoned from the upper level summoning spells. The AI can be a little self-defeating (ie: a water elemental attempts a drown attack and sacrifices half of its HP to try to drown an undead creature that is immune), so it would definitely be good to be able to summon a creature that fits the situation. Otherwise - I've found the summoning spells to be adequately useful in certain scenarios.

BahamutZ3RO

  • Master of Many Alts
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2615
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 01:48:25 PM »
My main gripe with short summons is that they can barely function in RP. "Behold, my great large.... boar.... oh... gone... well, damn."

The old suggestion about having summons first begin to countdown to their destruction when combat is initiated would neatly solve that, though.

That's actually a rather nice, very elegant solution to the problem.
: )




LackofCertainty

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2014, 05:46:03 AM »
How do people feel about using the summoning spells on this server? My impression is that they are not worthwhile at all given their relative weakness and their extremely short durations.  I notice that the Planar Binding spells (summon version) have also had their durations limited.

Does anyone have much experience with summons, low level and high, that can shed some light on this for me?  If the summoning spells truly aren't viable, should we change them so they are?

My initial suggestion would be to either buff them a little, or increase their durations.  However, I expect that has already been suggested and shot down before. :(

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, based only on past experiences with other servers.  To be fair though, the spawns on this server are much more challenging from what I remember.  If the summons are still the same as they are in vanilla, than I expect they are quite weak in comparison.

In any case, I don't want any trouble.  I just always thought summoning was one of the coolest parts of being a spellcaster, whether you are a druid, sorcerer, cleric, or wizard, and it's unfortunate how underrepresented it seems to be.

I've played a conjurer wizard to level 13, and also a cleric to level 13, so my experience is limited to low-mid levels.

Summon spells are quite powerful, as is.  When a wizard heavily invests in summons, they can often (but not always!) substitute the need for tanks entirely. People mainly have a bad impression of summons because the dire badger and the dire boar always waste the time to activate their rage/ferocity after being summoned.  This which means they don't work well for "Oh ****!" moments, and it's not uncommon to see them just stand there and watch you die during especially laggy sessions.  (The best use I found for badgers was actually to summon them as bait to get enemies to group up for an evard's black tentacles spell.)  However, the dire wolf and on are all pretty nasty customers.

Before I get into the normal summons, I need to devote an entire paragraph to the hound archon. The hound archon, summoned by good-aligned planar ally and planar binding, is a god damned monster, with built in ethereal visage, fire shield, a magic weapon for beating DR, good ab/damage and 3 attacks per round.  Just stop and think about that for a moment.  It's a level 6 spell that summons a very strong monster who also casts a level 6 defensive spell, and a level 5 damage sheath spell on itself.  Basically a three for one spell. The only negative(?) it has is that it sometimes wastes time casting lightning bolts, and sometimes those are stupidly aimed so that they hurt your allies.  When I got access to that spell, a couple castings of it was powerful enough to solo entire dungeons intended for parties of characters of that level.  Holy crap, that thing is insane.


When I played my conjurer, I heavily invested in multiple castings of summon monster across 3 or so levels of spells, and used them as disposable meat shields and/or damage sources.  Defensively, consider that many mages use stoneskin on themselves as a precaution.  When you compare it to the 100 damage that stoneskin absorbs, you start to realize that the 54 hp on a dire wolf is pretty nice for a level 3 slot. (especially when it eats a crit that would've one shot your mage through stoneskin)    Also, summons are insanely useful when a fight starts going badly.  A summon can be left to die while you and your party puts some distance between you and your targets.  (and if you're lucky it'll split up the enemies enough that you can fight smaller groups of them at a time)  Offensively, summons can put out far more single target damage over their life than an equal level spell.  Hell, a single power-attack hit from a dire wolf does more single target damage than a level 5 fireball.  And (unlike that fireball) the direwolf will spam those attacks for several round.   Are they ideal in every fight?  No, but that doesn't make them bad.  Saying that would be like claiming that fireballs are useless, because some enemies have high reflex and evasion.

Honestly, the main reason that a lot of people seem to hate the spells is that they expect them to function like they did in base nwn. (as godly replacement tanks)  On this server, one summon monster spell is about as useful as 1 fireball.  Sure, it might win you a fight, but the enemy might also save against it. (or crit it to pieces) When that happens, you better have extra castings prepared, and a solid escape plan in mind.


The only change that I'd like to see for summon spells would be to change the dire boar and dire badger's, rage/ferocity ability to not eat up their whole turn.  Update them to work like the PC versions of rage, where they function like a free action.  If that can't be implemented, I'd rather have those abilities removed entirely, because they just delay the response time on those low level summons.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 06:22:49 AM by LackofCertainty »

Knas

  • Developers
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 8733
  • Worthless phony
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2014, 09:31:34 AM »
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Geiger

  • Guest
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 09:34:15 AM »
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Yeah - if you're wanting to summon an intelligent being for extended conversation it's better done through a DM so you can properly see the consequences of such an event.

Ternce

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
  • Ye be naught but a worm.
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 11:24:10 AM »
On the subject of summon spells, I'd like to see the Summon Dire Badger changed to a rabbit.

Amazing Astoundo could finally get it right!

RedwizardD

  • Scrollord
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1001
  • Avoid Attention - Critical Failure
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014, 11:27:41 AM »
On the subject of summon spells, I'd like to see the Summon Dire Badger changed to a rabbit.

Amazing Astoundo could finally get it right!

Yes!

Bluebomber4evr

  • Head DM, Developer and Ravenloft Trivia Guru/Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 20622
    • http://www.nwnravenloft.com
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2014, 11:48:34 AM »
On the subject of summon spells, I'd like to see the Summon Dire Badger changed to a rabbit.

Amazing Astoundo could finally get it right!
Are you going to make a decent rabbit model? Because right now there aren't any.

Bluebomber4evr: The Justice, not you, since 2002

Tyras

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2014, 12:55:37 PM »
On the subject of summon spells, I'd like to see the Summon Dire Badger changed to a rabbit.

Amazing Astoundo could finally get it right!
Are you going to make a decent rabbit model? Because right now there aren't any.

It has to have sharp pointy teeth.

Meriana

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2014, 07:33:58 PM »
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

Badelaire

  • Guest
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2014, 08:18:16 PM »
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 08:25:11 PM by Badelaire »

Knas

  • Developers
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 8733
  • Worthless phony
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2014, 02:59:05 AM »
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.

Yes, the summons with higher INT makes my previous statement especially true

Meriana

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2014, 07:09:29 AM »
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.

I am very aware :D Summoning things that should not be summoned is a very seperate issue from the absurd attempts at trying to roleplay with what should logically be summonable or makeable, however. Try to be a necromancer and have undead guardian? Nope, unsummoned before battle lol. And those would be quuuuite undead.  Make an illusion shadow fiend, which liiikely being an illusion would behave exactly like caster wants? NAUP NAUP. Spend time petting a summoned animal? NOPE NOPE.

Can't the atmosphere-breaking summons - mostly elementals, celestials and fiends - just be removed if they are so disruptive? Another possibility of course is that some knowing mage is actively trying to summon from within the demiplane. Which is extra plausible with all the cruel mages who might not have done so so far ;)

Or those INT summons could have a chance of staying around and attacking caster after their time is out. Yay! Take that you silly mages!

There's a very cool @summon command. I want to use it, but don't have the time.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 07:12:22 AM by Meriana »

BahamutZ3RO

  • Master of Many Alts
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2615
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2014, 12:34:54 PM »
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.

There's a very cool @summon command. I want to use it, but don't have the time.

So much this. I have so many cool summons at my disposal and none of them last long enough for meaningful RP!
: )




queenofspades

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2014, 03:14:19 PM »
I'd really like it if summon durations were raised but there were some saves made to keep controll after a certain duration DC modified by the focuses you have and casting stat, if you fail.... They go hostile. Spells like protection from alignment could help like focuses too.
Currently Playing
Filipa Florea
Gwendolyn Blackmore
Ylndar Lharithlyn
Erik Mihaly
Chloe Labelle

RedwizardD

  • Scrollord
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1001
  • Avoid Attention - Critical Failure
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2014, 04:21:10 PM »
About the RP comment on summons: I feel the current way the summons work is the best solution overall. Summons are quite stupid on a server where you can't RP with them. They're just static mindless guardians, and overall it's usually quite immersion breaking seeing people walking around with their mindless drone summons on their tail.

Summons aren't just static mindless guardians, a bunch of them have pretty high int.

The point being made is that these highly intelligent entities just stand there like drones. In Ravenloft anything you summon is as trapped as you are on the demi-plane and there's a high chance it'll turn on you as the summoner for doing this (celestials and other good creatures included). There's a huge aspect to conjuring in Ravenloft as a setting and no Hound Archon is going to stand there and hit things for you in silence as you refer to it as your loyal doggy.

Quote
Ravenloft is cut off from the rest of the multiverse, which creates a problem for wizards who attempt to summon planar creatures. In general, a creature still responds to the summoning, though it is rarely what the wizard intended and often unfriendly, especially when the creature attempts to return home and discovers that it cannot depart from the Demiplane.

There's a very cool @summon command. I want to use it, but don't have the time.

So much this. I have so many cool summons at my disposal and none of them last long enough for meaningful RP!

That one of yours lasted a whole thirty seconds or so? Makes any meaningful exchange rather difficult.

swbf2lord

  • Guest
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2014, 05:03:36 PM »
Trying raising the amount of rounds/level, and that should be a good compromise.

Amon-Si

  • Inventor of the cat
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2418
  • Freelance troublemaker
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2014, 05:06:06 PM »
It's hard to terrorize by proxy when your summons go kaputski before anyone can even kill them.

BahamutZ3RO

  • Master of Many Alts
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2615
Re: Summoning Spells
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2014, 05:27:37 PM »
Trying raising the amount of rounds/level, and that should be a good compromise.

And giving summons via feat a proper 24 hour duration!
: )