Author Topic: Kagonesti Stats  (Read 5369 times)

Lucadia

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Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2014, 09:34:23 AM »
Goblins are not typically player characters for chosing in any game. They are also considered 1/2 CR rating  . Like fighting a house cat, not another elf.

Physical points are also not worth twice mental attributes .

xXCrystal_Rose

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Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2014, 12:21:08 PM »
In pnp a being of a starting race is worth 0 CR. It is having an adventurer or commoner class level that changes it (this is why they say 'advancement: by class'). If it has a commoner class level however the standard race stays 1/2 CR. See 1st level Human Warrior 1/2 cr in 3.5 monster manual, and compare 1st level human Fighter 1cr in 3.5 players handbook. Goblins do not follow this progression, and they are actually 1/3 CR, but it is not because of their ability traits. It is because the footnote mention states their CR is to be counted as 1/3 of their class, regardless of what class it is. Goblins have an ECL of +0 so if a goblin is a level 1 warrior it is 1/3 CR, but a level 1 fighter it is also 1/3 CR. This demonstrates that the goblin racial rules on CR are not determined by their actual racial power. This racial rule is removed if the goblin is used as a PC which is what the thread is about. Races being used as PC characters, not monsters, so the entire CR consideration holds no value in the discussion. A goblin PC is very comparable to an elf PC. Goblin racial statistics are almost identical to a halfling, excepting the -2 charisma for the roleplay reasons. Not for mechanical balance. Not everything has to be mechanically balanced and this is why the Kagonesti elves just like the half-orc race is not balanced. It is for the same reason as the imbalance in goblins: story.

Also house cats have a CR of 1/4, so actually, two pissed off house cats can theoretically be a match for a typical elven warrior. And that's the numbers for ya.


References:

Elf is also CR 1/2 as 1st level warrior, page 102, and all their subraces, not counting drow.

First level halfling warrior is CR 1/2, monster manual page 149.

Page 109 of the 3.5 Dungeon Masters Guide details that the Warrior class is not as strong as the Fighter class and gives 1/2 CR, explaining why PC standard races are CR 1 at level 1 and not CR 1/2 like npcs of the same race at level 1. That power comes from the class' CR adjustment, not the race's traits. Also referenced is page 127 of the 3.5  dungeon master guide detailing the attribute adjustments for goblin as a PC, and the lack of CR adjustment.

Also somewhere in the DM guide or player's handbook it mentions making your own subraces and that for every bonus to a physical score it needs either an equal penalty to another physical or double that to a mental but I'm a bit distracted now and can't dig it up. Just look at half-orc though. Comparative +2 str, -2 int and cha to the Kagonesti elven example +2 dex, -2 int and charisma.



It's best to keep things on the topic of this thread which is the 'fairness' of Kagonesti stats. It has already been concluded that no they are not fair or balanced compared to some other elven subraces PC templates, yes it is intentional and canon that it is created in such a way, and also that they are not the only race which is an example of such practice of ability scores being unbalanced for the sake of the portrayal of an exotic race when applied as a PC template. Kagonesti elves are working as intended and don't need to be changed any more than half orc needs to be changed because they are intentionally not balanced.



Spoiler: show

This completely off topic CR discussion that the thread was brought to though does show however that standard races when applied to a PC character are all CR 0, which is why they have no ECL modifier. Even an off-balance -2 to a mental does not make it negative, nor does a +2 or even +4 mental in some subraces. There are weird exceptions everywhere such as the way powerful Wood Elf template, because d&d is based around story moreso than mechanics, and mechanic attributes are supposed to be a reflection of the race's story and not a tool for combat efficiency. Adjustments to make it higher are class based or supernaturally based, and lower is due to special ruling, though of note in the example provided the goblin template when applied to a player does not produce a lower ECL but rather is the same as any other standard race because monsters have predetermined scores and players do not. All racial ability discussion is the use of it as a PC template and not as monsters racial properties, because monster racial properties are preset.

Challenge rating of elves or any other race is not the topic however and a derailment of the purpose of the thread, which is that a particular subrace has ability scores similar to that of a half orc which has been shown to be intentional and implemented correctly as per canon, and similar canon examples reinforcing the racial distribution of ability scores when applied as a template for a player character.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 12:32:59 PM by xXCrystal_Rose »

Lucadia

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Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2014, 12:29:23 PM »
Quote
It has already been concluded that no they are not fair or balanced

If you been following along, its concluded they are. They dont have a con penalty. When you log in and choose the sub, the elf gets additonal +2 con. Making them excelent  barbarians . Im also not going read all that, when first thing I spot is dm book says double penalty for mentality scores for a physical score?

Quote
racial rule is removed if the goblin is used as a PC which is what the thread is about
No. Its not. They are not typhical pcs. Which POTM promotes, typhical races that would be found adventuring

xXCrystal_Rose

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Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2014, 12:35:18 PM »
You seem to be misreading and intentionally misrepresenting what the staff and OP are discussing to derail the topic while also contradicting your own statements. Regardless, a DM has spoken and verified that it is correct and the stats do not need to be changed and are intentionally providing a double penalty for single positive.

Lucadia

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Re: Kagonesti Stats
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2014, 04:56:36 PM »
Didn't contradict myself. They are not getting a double negative for an elf either. Glad you mised the stat discussion