[Discussion] Potential PfA change

[Theorem Of Neutrality]

This seems like a really good idea.

I also think aprogressivist's point about buffing the save bonus on Remove Fear is right on the money.

[Bad_Bud]

I'm not a big fan of a +12 or higher bonus.  At that point I'd just stick on fear immunity.  What I'd prefer more is to cause Fear Aura to do nothing if a person has Remove Fear on.  That way the spell Fear is not getting the unnecessary shaft.

[Theorem Of Neutrality]

+12 does seem a bit much - a good median would be 6 or so. That'd be like having a paladin around, more or less.

[Bad_Bud]

+4 from remove fear and +2 from PfE is +6.

[Maric Arnand]

The spell could be altered to have its duration increased with if the change goes into effect, as I doubt they would leave everything as is. Changing the duration to turns/level would make it much more viable. and Clarity items exist in game that don't require one to be a spell caster or have UMD to use.

It was one suggestion though and I'm sure the Dev team will be looking at other options too.

As well as spells like resistance and the +will save items available wont make such a change completely game breaking.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Can someone break down for me what sort of things PfA will no longer protect against after this change? Because reading the article on d20srd.org, it seems like it wouldn't change much at all. It lists two examples in the Charm and Compulsion categories, but doesn't go on to state that spells like Hold Person are also Compulsion. All I can see off the top of my head is the Fear thing, as Aprog said. Now, Fear is already a concern in some major dungeons because it seems that the mummies in Har'Akir that utilize a fear aura are NEUTRAL and therefore can't be blocked with PfA. The worry for me is that short of Mind Blanks, which are very high level spells, there aren't many reliable options to utilize in dungeoning. Clarity's wimpy duration and single-target use means that any low levels encountering a fear aura will have to have it cast on them, possibly even twice in a single (large) fight. That could be anywhere from 3-9 casts of Clarity, which isn't necessarily a viable thing to expect from a group.

[Hatsune]

If we are loosing the Mind-affecting portion of the spell, does that mean the staff will also be implementing the "protection from summoned creatures" portion of the spell? As well as making the spell protect from ALL Compulsions and Charms that give control?, not only those of the affected alignment, as the spell implies there?

Beyond fear, this also opens up the Hold Person spells from the spells protections, so fear isn't the only things needed to worry about.


My only concern is the fact that this will hurt clerics more then mages, as mages still have the option of Lesser Mindblank, while Clarity, as previously stated, has such a short duration, and is meant more as a 'removal', then preemptive protection. Likewise, I can see this really cluttering up a casters buffing spells, given the HUGE number of crappy saves that alot of people have.

[APorg]

I'm not a big fan of a +12 or higher bonus.  At that point I'd just stick on fear immunity.  What I'd prefer more is to cause Fear Aura to do nothing if a person has Remove Fear on.  That way the spell Fear is not getting the unnecessary shaft.

That sounds like a good compromise. If you can selectively make Remove Fear give someone immunity to Fear Aura but just give them +4 versus the Fear spell, that would put Remove Fear firmly in its correct place as a balanced level 1 counter.

[armybrat69]

If we are loosing the Mind-affecting portion of the spell, does that mean the staff will also be implementing the "protection from summoned creatures" portion of the spell? As well as making the spell protect from ALL Compulsions and Charms that give control?, not only those of the affected alignment, as the spell implies there?

Beyond fear, this also opens up the Hold Person spells from the spells protections, so fear isn't the only things needed to worry about.


My only concern is the fact that this will hurt clerics more then mages, as mages still have the option of Lesser Mindblank, while Clarity, as previously stated, has such a short duration, and is meant more as a 'removal', then preemptive protection. Likewise, I can see this really cluttering up a casters buffing spells, given the HUGE number of crappy saves that alot of people have.

+1

[Hatsune]

Can someone break down for me what sort of things PfA will no longer protect against after this change? Because reading the article on d20srd.org, it seems like it wouldn't change much at all. It lists two examples in the Charm and Compulsion categories, but doesn't go on to state that spells like Hold Person are also Compulsion. All I can see off the top of my head is the Fear thing, as Aprog said. Now, Fear is already a concern in some major dungeons because it seems that the mummies in Har'Akir that utilize a fear aura are NEUTRAL and therefore can't be blocked with PfA. The worry for me is that short of Mind Blanks, which are very high level spells, there aren't many reliable options to utilize in dungeoning. Clarity's wimpy duration and single-target use means that any low levels encountering a fear aura will have to have it cast on them, possibly even twice in a single (large) fight. That could be anywhere from 3-9 casts of Clarity, which isn't necessarily a viable thing to expect from a group.

Enchantment

Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.

Charm: A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.

Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject.

Hold Person, Sleep, and similiar effects do not grant 'ongoing control', and so would not be stopped by Protection from Evil. Really the only things blocked would be Charm Person/Monster, and Dominate Person/Monster, and abilities that emulate such spells.

[Ellana Twiggy]

Not to cause any ruffles, but pfa does exactly what it's suppose to do. Hevucas /skeletal priests/ hevuca high priests these all spam hold spells which are fatal if pfe is not applied and low levels aren't going to have any effective protection measures if you casually nerf it because it supposedly aims more towards balance. There's also the fact of fear aura's, unnatural visages/ horrid visages which will cause fear (acts as a mind effect) which pfe also protects against from with ghosts and other undead.

Clarity is great fro running away from things, but not much else.
Lesser Mind blank is great for combat, but the wizard/sorc needs to be able to prepare it for a group and its not a low level spell.
Mind blank is great, if you have a high enough level caster for it.

The only thing the current pfa spell does at current is mostly protect you from fear auras and such, good, evil, neutral if you use both (which doesn't always work). I don't honestly see how this would unbalance anything, unless the goal is to really have a group of adventurers running for their lives as the first sign of anything and being feared to the point of being stupified.

It would make things increasingly harder for everyone, especially new low leveled characters.

Honestly I would think before any more spell changes were implemented the issues with the current ones would be fixed first. Ie, flame weapon not working on all the weapons, gmw and keen edge occasionally causing breakage with damage on certain things, so on and so forth. (unless for some reason I am the only one who has had the experience of being buffed with gmw/keen/ and flame wep and being stuck some how with a lower to hit and only flame wep dmg working)
Or finishing the crafting systems and removing the items which still have templates out there which don't work.  Quarter stave's, whips, platinum, gold, and so on.
There is a great drive to move forward here, and so many great things due to progress that maybe we have all forgotten that in the path left behind there is still rubble from blazing that trail. Heck, if I had the opportunity I would jump on finishing the crafting system. It's progression is pretty straight forward after all and I doubt it is as hard as its been made to seem to work with.

I really think the idea of getting more toward pnp is a great one, but why not fix the broken things before trying to change more?

[BahamutZ3RO]

I'm fine with PfA being modified but Sudhri brings up some good points; the lack of alternatives is a problem and a lot of low level dungeons have enemies that will spam Hold Person. The ML crypts will be a bit of a challenge from here on out.

[APorg]

Did they fix Hold Person to be versus mind-affecting here? According to the NWN wikia, it wasn't originally...

[BahamutZ3RO]

Did they fix Hold Person to be versus mind-affecting here? According to the NWN wikia, it wasn't originally...

I don't know how it works normally but here, it'll give you an "Immune to Mind Affecting" if you've got PfE up and you're safe.

[RedwizardD]

It might be a good idea to look carefully at what imbalances the change would cause and make sure there are methods of addressing it at the same level. Also bear in mind that the existing form was different from pnp to balance something within the game engine itself.

[Mayvind]

Still need protection from evil when i summon my favorite friend the Balor ? Also change the fear effect to reduce fighting capability instead of randon run in corner and beaten to death. % spellfailure and reduce attack base and ac etc..etc..

[Shadowthrone]

Still need protection from evil when i summon my favorite friend the Balor ?

Yes.

 

Also change the fear effect to reduce fighting capability instead of randon run in corner and beaten to death. % spellfailure and reduce attack base and ac etc..etc..

No.

[Bad_Bud]

I'm going to preemptively say no to the protection from summons.  I'm not sure how you would even make that work, and summons are pretty nerfed to hell anyway.

[Anonymoose]

Not to cause any ruffles, but pfa does exactly what it's suppose to do. Hevucas /skeletal priests/ hevuca high priests these all spam hold spells which are fatal if pfe is not applied and low levels aren't going to have any effective protection measures if you casually nerf it because it supposedly aims more towards balance.

In group = Abber Dream Catcher (Quite many charges of Clarity)
Alone = Freedom Potions (Freedom of Movement)

[Hatsune]

So, after gathering a few notes, this is what I see would change, given a complete adjustment to the PnP version of the spell.

We are LOSING protection against these:

1) Fear Spell, Fear Auras
2) Hold Person, Hold Monster, Hold Animal
3) Confusion
4) Sleep
5) Phantasmal Killer, Weird
6) Power Word: Stun
7) Daze
8) Doom, Bane
9) Tasha's Hideous Laughter

We should be gaining complete protection against Charm Person/Monster, and Dominate Person/Monster (Regardless of the casters alignment or 'mode' of the PfA spell).

Also, we should be gaining Protection from Summoned creatures, utilized by Summoning Spells, Planar Allies, Planar Bindings, and Gate, with the 'Opposing alignment' of the mode cast being immune to the effects (I.E. Good creatures are immune to this when protection from evil is cast, Evil summons immune to this when protection from Good is used.) This however would be much harder to impliment, give the mechanical workings of the hostiling system.

[Lucadia]

I cant say your lv 9 mage is going be interested in lesser mind blanking the entire party either, removing their utility for any extended stone/improved invisibility or their own protections. It also throws in the equation that ever pc is going be expected to carry their own abber dream charms, a resource some pcs wont be able to afford or just additional crafting time sink.

[Shadowthrone]

I cant say your lv 9 mage is going be interested in lesser mind blanking the entire party either, removing their utility for any extended stone/improved invisibility or their own protections. It also throws in the equation that ever pc is going be expected to carry their own abber dream charms, a resource some pcs wont be able to afford or just additional crafting time sink.

Why would they even need to lesser mind blank the entire party? If they are playing properly no more then the frontliners will be exposed to fear auras or mind-affecting spells.

[RedwizardD]

So, after gathering a few notes, this is what I see would change, given a complete adjustment to the PnP version of the spell.

We are LOSING protection against these:

1) Fear Spell, Fear Auras
2) Hold Person, Hold Monster, Hold Animal
3) Confusion
4) Sleep
5) Phantasmal Killer, Weird
6) Power Word: Stun
7) Daze
Doom, Bane
9) Tasha's Hideous Laughter

We should be gaining complete protection against Charm Person/Monster, and Dominate Person/Monster (Regardless of the casters alignment or 'mode' of the PfA spell).

Also, we should be gaining Protection from Summoned creatures, utilized by Summoning Spells, Planar Allies, Planar Bindings, and Gate, with the 'Opposing alignment' of the mode cast being immune to the effects (I.E. Good creatures are immune to this when protection from evil is cast, Evil summons immune to this when protection from Good is used.) This however would be much harder to impliment, give the mechanical workings of the hostiling system.

That is a massive imbalance. Will other spells be added/adjusted to compensate? Magic users will need more spell slots to accommodate such spells if that is the case.

[Bad_Bud]

I cant say your lv 9 mage is going be interested in lesser mind blanking the entire party either, removing their utility for any extended stone/improved invisibility or their own protections. It also throws in the equation that ever pc is going be expected to carry their own abber dream charms, a resource some pcs wont be able to afford or just additional crafting time sink.

Can't you make that argument almost anywhere?  If you encounter necromancy you can't say your level 7 cleric is going to death ward the entire party, for instance.  And yes, people do skimp on those spells, but I don't see anyone complaining when they get killed by Destruction just because because PfA didn't protect from that too, and I think that's the main reason for the suggestion in the first place.  I don't understand why mind-effects were ever singled out in the first place.

[Shadowthrone]

That is a massive imbalance. Will other spells be added/adjusted to compensate? Magic users will need more spell slots to accommodate such spells if that is the case.

They are perfectly capable of adjusting with the tools currently available to them.