[Discussion] Potential PfA change

[Shadowthrone]

The Development team is currently discussing the possibility of altering the Protection from Alignment spell as a part of our ongoing spell changes. For reference, the current implimentation of the spell can be seen here.

The reason for this is that the spell effectively counters every mind-affecting spell and effect excepting those used by neutral alignments. This is incredibly powerful for a level 1 spell, especially when the majority of encounters found on PotM are of evil alignment. It should also be noted that we intend to introduce Protection from Law and Protection from Chaos as per the P&P spell which will essentially mean casters can render themselves and allies immune to all mind-affecting effects used by any encounter or PC that is not True Neutral.

We are discussing bringing this spell in line with the P&P version of this spell which can be seen here.

Essentially what this would mean is replacing the total mind immunity with immunities to Charm and Domination effects. The spell would retain its value in many situations but would not be quite so dominating as a level 1 spell.

For reference, some of the alternative methods of combating mind-affecting spells and abilities are Remove Fear, Clarity, Lesser Mind Blank, and Mind Blank.

We have decided to bring the subject forward for discussion by the community as the spell is used a great deal and we do not wish to blindside you with a major game change. This alteration would obviously require players to adapt to relying on new spells and tactics in certain encounters, however I personally believe that it would have a beneficial effect in making the game more interesting to play.

Now, feel free to present your thoughts and feelings on the matter.

[Budly]

I am curious if this is the right way to go.

Im such a player who rather avoid mass death and that especially cause of the games flawed fear maniac for example. Since the server already is nigh impossible to dungeon on without a big party or fully buffed (maybe min maxing help, im not sure) this will just prove to push those high spell slots out to cover even more spells or bring more mages.

Although I clearly do not have all the knowledge needed to judge these maybe to be changes and only speak out of my point of view here. I am not the most valid critic on dungeon mechanics afterall.

[APorg]

Personally I'm for anything that brings the game closer to the books.

The main impact this will have is on Fear, I believe. The issue with Fear, as I understand, is that a passed Fear check is supposed to make you immune to Fear for a while afterwards.

Would it be possible to alter the Fear mechanic so that on a successful Will save, the victim either gets Fear immunity until the next rest, or some great bonus vs. Fear? (e.g. +30)

[Maric Arnand]

Its an intriguing suggestion,  and one I do personally like. Yes this will make the server harder for some, but items like abber dream catchers and potions of courage will no longer be vendor trash.

It will impact sorcerers and bards most though as thier higher level spell slots are usually reserved for direct dammage or disabling spells.

This is a change I endorse.

[Budly]

But why do we want it closer to the books or harder? (Not on topic although)

I understand the idea behind the changes although.

[Shadowthrone]

But why do we want it closer to the books or harder?

Because it's more interesting. Obviously not everyone is going to agree with me, but personally I think the current PfA makes the game too easy to the point where it's simply boring how easy it is to counter mind-affecting spells.

Personally I'm for anything that brings the game closer to the books.

The main impact this will have is on Fear, I believe. The issue with Fear, as I understand, is that a passed Fear check is supposed to make you immune to Fear for a while afterwards.

Would it be possible to alter the Fear mechanic so that on a successful Will save, the victim either gets Fear immunity until the next rest, or some great bonus vs. Fear? (e.g. +30)

In P&P you are immune to a particular fear aura for 24 hours after saving against it. We are aware how very annoying fear auras are in NWN and will be looking into ways to make them fairer and less irritating.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

But why do we want it closer to the books or harder?

Well, I don't think "harder" is necessarily the most precise term - it's more a matter of making it coherent and balanced. The current version of the spell leaves it a very powerful spell even at higher levels - despite it just being a level 1. This means that those who have access to the spell have a significant advantage over those who don't. Additionally, this contributes to make a lot of other spells more redundant (both attack and defence).

[APorg]

Its an intriguing suggestion,  and one I do personally like. Yes this will make the server harder for some, but items like abber dream catchers and potions of courage will no longer be vendor trash.

I think this is a great point. Currently, Potions of Courage are vendor trash; people grind them for herbalism levels but don't bother using them because PfE is a more effective counter to Fear than Remove Fear -- which is clearly absurd.

The problem is that Remove Fear is reactive rather than active, and it only grants +4 against Fear. This would be fine if most people faced only 1 Fear check per aura, as it is supposed to work, but since most encounters tend to spam Fear auras like nobody's business, +4 is as useful as an umbrella in a hurricane.

The spell as it stands is like this:

Spell level: cleric 1
Innate level: 1
School: abjuration
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: short (8 meters)
Area of effect: large (5 meter radius), 1 creature / 4 levels
Duration: 10 turns
Save: harmless
Spell resistance: no
Additional counterspells: fear

Description: All fear effects are removed from allies within the area of effect. The targets also gain a +4 bonus to saving throws against fear spells and effects for the duration of the spell.

I suggest that, to fill the hole left by PfE and account for the spamming effect of Fear auras, the bonus against Fear granted by Remove Fear should be increased; I reckon it should be at least +12.

[Budly]

But it is just like with true seeing, seeing invisable.

The engine cannot portray a "realistic fantasy" version of these spells like fear or stealth.

I understand what you are saying, I do. I do not wish to be old grumpy Budly here. I only think it might be to much for a party if they need to remove higher level slots spent on spells that is needed for the combat aspect of some kind of dungeon. But I prefer you folks will test it out and tweak it accordingly to the measures needed to fix it.

Sadly my inventory on like all my characters is already a mess full of items. I imagine carrying a horde of things to make me even more encumbered, hah!

[Lucadia]

My only concern is the taxing effect it will have on higher level spell slots. Ie, lesser mind blank is fairly high level , when parties could aventure in their level zones with a balanced party will now find it stressed on their local caster if they can no longer provide their protection buffs . This would not be so bad though with less fear spam checks and making some lower level slots in 1 and 2 more utility in use.

[dutchy]

Making things more like pnp is the problem in it's own.
cause this game will never be like pnp so such changes are nothing but limitations, and hope that it could be Something and works like something it could never come close to.

But yes the spell is very strong for it's lvl

[Lucadia]

Also:

This means that those who have access to the spell have a significant advantage over those who don't.

I do not find this true. We  have plenty of items that drop that offer protection from evil or good in the loot tables that anyone has access too. Ones that drop in very common, low level areas.

[Shadowthrone]

Making things more like pnp is the problem in it's own.
cause this game will never be like pnp so such changes are nothing but limitations, and hope that it could be Something and works like something it could never come close to.

But yes the spell is very strong for it's lvl

It isn't about making the game closer to P&P, it's about making the game more interesting to play and maintaining a balance in relation to spell level and effect. When an imbalance is perceived the first place we look for changes is usually P&P and I feel the P&P version of the spell is a much more balanced and interesting implementation of the spell.

[Aahz]

The entire server was designed around this "imbalance", yes?  It has thus far not been causing any hideous game-breaking problems, yes?  I see it as having a slightly unconformable car seat and then trying to adjust it only to discover every other setting is worse and you cannot even manage to set it back as good as it was in the first place. Game mechanic wise I really believe we are past the point of diminishing returns in terms of making changes.

[Reaver]

Personally I like the idea of the change to PfE, and have always thought it somewhat silly a level 1 spell can completely negate several much higher leveled ones.

[Bad_Bud]

The entire server was designed around this "imbalance", yes?  It has thus far not been causing any hideous game-breaking problems, yes?  I see it as having a slightly unconformable car seat and then trying to adjust it only to discover every other setting is worse and you cannot even manage to set it back as good as it was in the first place. Game mechanic wise I really believe we are past the point of diminishing returns in terms of making changes.

I don't think anything was designed around it.  If I was making a dungeon, the last thing I'd put in it is something mind affecting, because I know how pointless it generally is.  Then if you have something like neutral fear auras, no one's dealt with not being immune before and everyone gets destroyed by it.

[Budly]

The entire server was designed around this "imbalance", yes?  It has thus far not been causing any hideous game-breaking problems, yes?  I see it as having a slightly unconformable car seat and then trying to adjust it only to discover every other setting is worse and you cannot even manage to set it back as good as it was in the first place. Game mechanic wise I really believe we are past the point of diminishing returns in terms of making changes.

I don't think anything was designed around it.  If I was making a dungeon, the last thing I'd put in it is something mind affecting, because I know how pointless it generally is.  Then if you have something like neutral fear auras, no one's dealt with not being immune before and everyone gets destroyed by it.

I see this as a newly released hero in a moba or a new area in a MMO. People will get suprised at first but adjust. Why not make more neutral dungeons?

[Maric Arnand]

Clarity  
Spell level: bard 2; cleric 3; sorcerer/wizard 3
Innate level: 2
School: abjuration necromancy
Descriptor: mind-affecting
Components: somatic
Range: medium (20 meters)
Area of effect: single
Duration: 5 rounds + 1 round / level
Save: no
Spell resistance: no
Additional counterspells: charm person

Description: This spell removes the effects of daze, sleep, confusion, stun, and charm, and protects against all mind-affecting effects until it expires. For every effect removed by the spell, the target creature sustains 1 point of negative energy damage.

PfA in its current form it invalidates this spell, and all that follow unless your fighting in Har'Akir vs the Anubis guardians or similar creatures that are neutral.

That to me is unbalanced in the extreme, and the reason I am in favour of this change to the spell.

[Bad_Bud]

Clarity does have use in that it can remove an effect after it happens.  PfA can only prevent an effect from happening.  Actually one place I've used clarity is in the purple mist dungeon on Baratak, but that's only because Trillochs are neutral.

[armybrat69]

Personally I don't see any need to change this spell, has never seen imbalanced when dungeoning. I agree it is vastly different from the PnP spell but NWN has left quite a few spells out of the game that would also have been more useful too. I don't like the idea of now making a new change that will make it harder for lower levels (and clarity's duration is honestly way too short to be a decent spell outside of a remove fear or other mind altering effect) . If you wish to "balance" this spell then I am in agreement with aprogessivist,
something should be done in regards to fer effects if you pass a save you should have some better immunity or at least a bonus to further saving throws for it.

[Lucadia]

I have no interest of losing level 3 spell slots to protect the party when your tanks need protection from elements, greater magic weapon, str, dex, con buffs or it leaves your wizard/sorc even less utility where they was needed more. Protecting five players with lv 3 spells ? they are not going have anything left. Clerc? not so much. Maybe thats the reason why protection from evil was merged with so many effects for nwn is due to spell slot availibility.

[Aahz]

The entire server was designed around this "imbalance", yes?  It has thus far not been causing any hideous game-breaking problems, yes?  I see it as having a slightly unconformable car seat and then trying to adjust it only to discover every other setting is worse and you cannot even manage to set it back as good as it was in the first place. Game mechanic wise I really believe we are past the point of diminishing returns in terms of making changes.

I don't think anything was designed around it.  If I was making a dungeon, the last thing I'd put in it is something mind affecting, because I know how pointless it generally is.  Then if you have something like neutral fear auras, no one's dealt with not being immune before and everyone gets destroyed by it.

Well yes it was. The spell is they way it has been since NWN was released. The server WAS designed with the spell working as it does currently. That is my point here.

[APorg]

Yes, Clarity is too short-duration to be very effective against Fear auras. 5 + 1rounds/level is going to be, what, 8 rounds per level? That won't even cover a particularly long fight.

Remove Fear, on the other hand, lasts 10 turns, which is a decent bash for a single cheap potion. If its +4 bonus weren't so puny in the face of Fear spam, it would be the go-to solution for Fear.

[swbf2lord]

Not to mention, non-casters can't really get a hold of mind blank items, unless they have UMD.

[Lucadia]

I was about to say. Assuming your average spell caster is about 10, clarity would only offer 1 minute of protection for entire dungeon situation where such mind effects was being spammed .