Hit points - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook?

[Maric Arnand]

- snip-
Part of the problem is inherent in NWN's combat mechanics as opposed to PnP D&D, as for example in NWN it's possible to score a critical even if the opponent is hit only on a natural 20 (which isn't the case in D&D 3.0, not sure about 3.5).

This.

not to be negative but these kind of changes are the type that sometimes be the end for a server.

if you change the hp system you have to change others aswell.

why would somebody play if they die from the various spell casting enemies with one hit, and turn into a body?   cause if you lack the hp then you won't have to roll for a possible stabilition.

those two systems are connected.

also you would be creating a HUGE gap between already made characters and new ones, a new character would never win from an old character as again they gain a advantage, so i would be seeing more older characters played then new ones made.

would it not make everybodies lives easyer if it stays untouched or simply the monsters gain the same advantage players have.
then again as players you should have some advantage and the current items would not aid with the changes.

new items to boost hp should be made then, honnestly i think this idea opens up a saspool of unneeded tweaking, best to invest time in more scripting and building, i think the playerbase would rather have that, then months of nagging this isn't fair that's broken, can't we revert back etc etc.

And this.

In my view, upping the HP of creatures some, but not quite to the level of PC's would be better, and perhaps not at the low level dungeons. The crit spam that can happen there is all ready nasty. Especially on some of the stronger critters such as Skeletal Knights.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Again, this is not punishing anything or anyone - I had hoped we could abstain from using such laden terms as it only derails this, and not in a positive direction.

You can't really avoid it though. A lot of places already encourage/favor optimized characters (which is ok, I just avoid those places as I know I can't handle them) and increasing the difficulty overall will only make this more severe for weaker characters/builds as they aren't able to contribute much to a group they travel with and thus will be left out.
Part of the problem is inherent in NWN's combat mechanics as opposed to PnP D&D, as for example in NWN it's possible to score a critical even if the opponent is hit only on a natural 20 (which isn't the case in D&D 3.0, not sure about 3.5).

This is only halfway true. The critical will guarantee a hit, but unless the 'threat roll' can beat the target's AC, it won't actually be a critical.

[Budly]

Again, this is not punishing anything or anyone - I had hoped we could abstain from using such laden terms as it only derails this, and not in a positive direction.

You can't really avoid it though. A lot of places already encourage/favor optimized characters (which is ok, I just avoid those places as I know I can't handle them) and increasing the difficulty overall will only make this more severe for weaker characters/builds as they aren't able to contribute much to a group they travel with and thus will be left out.
Part of the problem is inherent in NWN's combat mechanics as opposed to PnP D&D, as for example in NWN it's possible to score a critical even if the opponent is hit only on a natural 20 (which isn't the case in D&D 3.0, not sure about 3.5).

See this comment. It is what will happen.

If you nerf HP, we need to nerf some spawns aswell who can one hit a mage as it is right now.

Things are perfect the way they are.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

not to be negative but these kind of changes are the type that sometimes be the end for a server.

And staleness is too.

if you change the hp system you have to change others aswell.

Again, that remains entirely up to us.

why would somebody play if they die from the various spell casting enemies with one hit, and turn into a body?   cause if you lack the hp then you won't have to roll for a possible stabilition.

those two systems are connected.

Like death-spells? Or what are you referring to?

also you would be creating a HUGE gap between already made characters and new ones, a new character would never win from an old character as again they gain a advantage, so i would be seeing more older characters played then new ones made.

Naturally, it would be retroactive.

i think the playerbase would rather have that, then months of nagging this isn't fair that's broken, can't we revert back etc etc.

Naggers will nag!

Again, this is not punishing anything or anyone - I had hoped we could abstain from using such laden terms as it only derails this, and not in a positive direction.

You can't really avoid it though. A lot of places already encourage/favor optimized characters (which is ok, I just avoid those places as I know I can't handle them) and increasing the difficulty overall will only make this more severe for weaker characters/builds as they aren't able to contribute much to a group they travel with and thus will be left out.
Part of the problem is inherent in NWN's combat mechanics as opposed to PnP D&D, as for example in NWN it's possible to score a critical even if the opponent is hit only on a natural 20 (which isn't the case in D&D 3.0, not sure about 3.5).

See this comment. It is what will happen.

What comment?

If you nerf HP, we need to nerf some spawns aswell who can one hit a mage as it is right now.

Only in case you consider that to be "wrong" and not "a part of the challenge". Which I think is what it's all about really. If it meant we just had to rebalance everything else, I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

Things are perfect the way they are.

Quite reassuring, and refreshing, to hear you say so, thank you!

[swbf2lord]

Mobs can already demolish my mechanically solid high level bard in a few lucky hits, if I'm not prepared with stoneskin, and empowered endurance. Lowering the hp, we will definitely need to nerf spawns. Though, the best thing would be to -not to it at all-. Hp is already such a limiting factor, for all classes, except hp builds, which, generally are lacking in other areas. They have a lot of hp to absorb hits, but they take a lot of hits, whereas low hp characters have to make up other ways.

Curst Assassins. Those can instantly down a 140hp PC, assuming they land all their hits, and perhaps have a second assassin nearby. I've seen it happen before, even with high AC. We don't need less hp.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Quote from: dutchy on Today at 12:22:20 PM
why would somebody play if they die from the various spell casting enemies with one hit, and turn into a body?   cause if you lack the hp then you won't have to roll for a possible stabilition.

those two systems are connected.


Like death-spells? Or what are you referring to?

I think he's referring to, for instance, the higher difficulty skeletons in the ML Crypts. One critical from those could instantly corpse/impair a low hp person's body if it lands an Imp. Power Attack critical with a greatsword.

[Anonymoose]

While you, the original poster, have pointed out the imbalance between PCs and NPCs I'm more curious about why you feel this needs to be rectified since I found your original post to be vague about the motives behind this motion. Basically I wonder what the desired outcome is from this proposed change because the only speculation I can make is that you're willing to make a change of this magnitude because you feel that players invest too little points in Constitution, which I feel is a game-breaking change for such a minor detail.

[swbf2lord]

Quote from: dutchy on Today at 12:22:20 PM
why would somebody play if they die from the various spell casting enemies with one hit, and turn into a body?   cause if you lack the hp then you won't have to roll for a possible stabilition.

those two systems are connected.


Like death-spells? Or what are you referring to?

I think he's referring to, for instance, the higher difficulty skeletons in the ML Crypts. One critical from those could instantly corpse/impair a low hp person's body if it lands an Imp. Power Attack critical with a greatsword.

Even a person with good CON, as the NCW showed me, can be instantly killed by one at lower levels.

[APorg]

Ah, yeah, I personally like that suggestion. Or combine it with approgressivsts, so it scales a bit with level. One could imagine a system giving max XP at levels 1 to 6, 2/3rds at 7 to 12 and half beyond that.

You know what, forget my idea. It's a bad one because it'll encourage people who multiclass to take high HP classes at low levels and low HP classes at high levels, and if there's one thing I hate it's rules that lead to gimmicky builds.

[BahamutZ3RO]

* Make Barb/Wizard after update

 

I just don't see the necessity behind this. Some things on the server should definitely be looked at, this isn't one of them.

[Lucadia]

Like death-spells? Or what are you referring to?

We are talking about area of effect spells , enemy spell casters. Chain lightening and horrid wilting in perfidus will do 50-100 damage to the entire party if they are caught.

Firestorms from desert trolls can do upward 80 damage when unlucky. its going target a very large area. when you get hit with that by several sell casters at once, your usualy left as a corpse , and in needing of a resurrection.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

While you, the original poster, have pointed out the imbalance between PCs and NPCs I'm more curious about why you feel this needs to be rectified since I found your original post to be vague about the motives behind this motion. Basically I wonder what the desired outcome is from this proposed change because the only speculation I can make is that you're willing to make a change of this magnitude because you feel that players invest too little points in Constitution, which I feel is a game-breaking change for such a minor detail.

If you look through my posts in this topic, I've elaborated some on it already. It's nothing to do with me feeling players investing too little points in constitution.

Ah, yeah, I personally like that suggestion. Or combine it with approgressivsts, so it scales a bit with level. One could imagine a system giving max XP at levels 1 to 6, 2/3rds at 7 to 12 and half beyond that.

You know what, forget my idea. It's a bad one because it'll encourage people who multiclass to take high HP classes at low levels and low HP classes at high levels, and if there's one thing I hate it's rules that lead to gimmicky builds.

Good point, hmm. I think I could come up with some equation that nullified that effect though. But it's a bit early deciding on specifics after all.

Speaking of that, I hope people don't make up their mind too soon - there's plenty of time to reflect on how it may affect gameplay before anyone would start to conclude anything.

We also have to consider the alternative option of solving the imbalance by increasing NPC HP.

[BahamutZ3RO]

We also have to consider the alternative option of solving the imbalance by increasing NPC HP.

I'd like to know which NPCs you feel need a boost in HP. It feels like it takes ages to clear a single wave of just about anything in my CR.

[swbf2lord]

We also have to consider the alternative option of solving the imbalance by increasing NPC HP.

I'd like to know which NPCs you feel need a boost in HP. It feels like it takes ages to clear a single wave of just about anything in my CR.

Yeah, my mind's already been completely made up in this case. And, as the other thread should show, people feel the challenge is "just right" I.e. no change needed, except maybe some more interesting dungeons.

[Lucadia]

We already have dungeons with mobs with hit points that range in the hundreds already. Increase of hp on certain creatues only just increases the time it takes to remove the threat, but the encounter does not increase in difficulty.

[swbf2lord]

We already have dungeons with mobs with hit points that range in the hundreds already. Increase of hp on certain creatues only just increases the time it takes to remove the threat, but the encounter does not increase in difficulty.

Troll Chieftains have a metric ton of hp, as the mob that first comes to mind.

[APorg]

We also have to consider the alternative option of solving the imbalance by increasing NPC HP.

And nerf spells further?

[swbf2lord]

In addition to other issues, you'll also see far more spellcasters. We already have more than enough spellcasters. Few true fighters, rogues, WMs, etc. We need more of the non-magical classes, and this will dissuade people from rolling said classes.

[Budly]

"Only in case you consider that to be "wrong" and not "a part of the challenge". Which I think is what it's all about really. If it meant we just had to rebalance everything else, I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place."

What challenge exactly Sören? More dead people? More raising? I dont see what the problem is. In my opinion its perfect the way it is.

Why do we need a rebalance?

[BahamutZ3RO]

You should also note that if areas/creatures are deemed 'not worth the effort', people will find ways to circumvent them. Like the first area in Perf or the shadows in the Lich Tower.

[dutchy]

Like death-spells? Or what are you referring to?

We are talking about area of effect spells , enemy spell casters. Chain lightening and horrid wilting in perfidus will do 50-100 damage to the entire party if they are caught.

Firestorms from desert trolls can do upward 80 damage when unlucky. its going target a very large area. when you get hit with that by several sell casters at once, your usualy left as a corpse , and in needing of a resurrection.

luca awnsered it for me soren.

Good point, hmm. I think I could come up with some equation that nullified that effect though. But it's a bit early deciding on specifics after all.

Speaking of that, I hope people don't make up their mind too soon - there's plenty of time to reflect on how it may affect gameplay before anyone would start to conclude anything.

We also have to consider the alternative option of solving the imbalance by increasing NPC HP.

Don't wish to nitpick but lines like that appear like the opposite, in one line you say you are thinking ahead so it seems you have made up your mind already while in the other sentence you ask us to not make up our minds.... bit double.

so in all honnesty, you wish to adapt or alter the current system if it where up to you without the playerbases input correct?
and if that is the case it is on us to either sway your mind or to tweak the idea you are having??

[swbf2lord]

This means PCs often have nearly twice the amount of hit points that an NPC of equal level would have.

For me, personally, I often run into scenarios where I'm dealing out a lot more damage to a mob than I'd be able to take.

[BahamutZ3RO]

This means PCs often have nearly twice the amount of hit points that an NPC of equal level would have.

For me, personally, I often run into scenarios where I'm dealing out a lot more damage to a mob than I'd be able to take.

Agreed. For the sake of comparison, what level is a Darkling Swordmaster and what is their hp like?

[Telkar]

To clarify the reasons for my opinion in favor of HP rebalancing a bit:

I don't like when the system setup sways stats into my favor and waters down the challenges. I actually thought the NPCs also had maximum HP to begin with, so  I wasn't aware of this until now. To me, it's not about how challenging things are to me, but to keep the stats fair, so as to not undermine the system. I'm one to dislike a DM doing a "mercy decision" by shirking taking the devastating crit into effect for the convenience of the players and similar things.

[APorg]

I've thought hard and long about this. Here are my current thoughts:

- Lowering HP in general will result in dungeons being more difficult, and the consensus seems to be amongst the player base that the difficulty is alright, or trending towards too hard. If you're going to up Risk, you ought to look at upping Reward, too (more XP, more loot). That would at least compensate for the "fun" balance.

- Complicated averaging formula are likely going to be a bad idea, especially if it leads to influencing people by having them take high HP levels earlier... I don't like such gimmicky builds.

- Ultimately, this might be off-set by having new gear appear that gives bonus HP... I don't know if it'd be useful but it would certainly be an interesting diversification of loot...