Hit points - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Dutchy ought to post more pictures of beer.

And to stay on-thread..  If HP is lowered then it should hopefully come with appropriate changes elsewhere that affect combat.

Yes, it will in the sense of tweaking some creatures, (in most cases just making them follow the standards for DnD closer).

Also, to address the concern some people have that they would have to rebuild their characters, that wouldn't be necessary. We can modify it with NWNx.

[Aahz]

Also, to address the concern some people have that they would have to rebuild their characters, that wouldn't be necessary. We can modify it with NWNx.

Oh thank goodness!  I've lost the notes on when and why I took the feats I did at what level. That would be a nightmare to do over.

[Troglodyte]

With the risk of being unpopular, I gotta say that I'm pretty positive to this. Perhaps with a little modding to avoid the whole "Rolled 1 three lvls in a row, character ruined forever"-situation. Maybe something akin to fighters getting a D5+5, Barbarians getting a D6+6 and Wizzies getting D2+2 and so on and so forth.

[Mayvind]

Geezz Stop trolling let the discussion rest 

[themoob]

Not sure if this has been mentioned... but with the NWN engine you can take advantage of the level-up system to just constantly re-roll until you hit max HP anyway. This was a problem at the last PW server I played/DM'd at, where there would be a bunch of PCs always on max HP because they'd exploit it (and there seemed to be no way of telling if they exploited it or not) compared to PCs who rolled fairly and were thus weaker.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Not sure if this has been mentioned... but with the NWN engine you can take advantage of the level-up system to just constantly re-roll until you hit max HP anyway. This was a problem at the last PW server I played/DM'd at, where there would be a bunch of PCs always on max HP because they'd exploit it (and there seemed to be no way of telling if they exploited it or not) compared to PCs who rolled fairly and were thus weaker.

Yeah, why we wouldn't randomize it but set a firm number preventing any such exploit.

[Aahz]

Not sure if this has been mentioned... but with the NWN engine you can take advantage of the level-up system to just constantly re-roll until you hit max HP anyway. This was a problem at the last PW server I played/DM'd at, where there would be a bunch of PCs always on max HP because they'd exploit it (and there seemed to be no way of telling if they exploited it or not) compared to PCs who rolled fairly and were thus weaker.

Yeah, why we wouldn't randomize it but set a firm number preventing any such exploit.

Wait a second, I am confused     How do you roll hp randomly (which is the whole point here) without randomizing it and using fixed numbers?

[HellsPanda]

Randomising was not Soren's point, but changing the values from Max to something lower to make the server more difficult, is what I have been assuming it was about.

[queenofspades]

Not sure if this has been mentioned... but with the NWN engine you can take advantage of the level-up system to just constantly re-roll until you hit max HP anyway. This was a problem at the last PW server I played/DM'd at, where there would be a bunch of PCs always on max HP because they'd exploit it (and there seemed to be no way of telling if they exploited it or not) compared to PCs who rolled fairly and were thus weaker.

Yeah, why we wouldn't randomize it but set a firm number preventing any such exploit.

Wait a second, I am confused     How do you roll hp randomly (which is the whole point here) without randomizing it and using fixed numbers?

just a note, it is possible to hide the number of hitpoints gained with a question mark at levelup. This way the only way to do such would be with enchanting... and I imagine it would be slow going and quite obvious.

[Mayvind]

pssss.. this topic should stay dead the idea buried do not give this idea the light of day !

[Jadow_Valroth]

Agreed. Server is difficult enough as it is. More so at lower levels. We don't need any further reasons to ward of newbies. IMHO.

[Winter83]

I am in love with the difficult encounters.

Increasing it further though may result in the apperance of more min/maxed builds.
Let's assume the Bandits would have twice as many HP. Then it'd need a more thoroughly though over build to counter this. As their hit rate remains the same.  Likely I'd pick some fighter-caster class for the extra buffs. Roleplay would suffer this with an influx of clerics while other classes slowly losing their usefullness.

If this would occur, I'd also gladly see ordinary armors coming with a damagre redux variety. So the battles would last longer as the armors and shields would eat up more damage (like ranging from 1 to 10) . Instead of the silly "gimme more AC. "   (Always found it silly how the AC itself is working. A heavy armored figure is not more skilled in dodgetry but that armor simply eats up most of the damage)


I still believe if we'd have a similar change increasing the NPC HP would be still a better idea. Long battles rock, where exhaustion comes into play, where you have times to emote the battle properly, or think over combat strategies. Lowering PC HP would just make combat quicker paced. With a higher likelyhood of the PC ending up dead. And in all honesty there's nothing more painful than RP-ing death and respawning constantly.

[Lucadia]

Only thing I disagree here with is the perception of armor ac. Its not representation of dodging an attack. Hugh ac heavy plate shows the metal is causing glancing blows. You would need a armor smirh on a regular basis too keep them in working order. Same as hit points damage reflects taking bruises and scrapes until a single mortal wound or endurance runs out.

[Ercvadasz]

Actually I think that instead of the hit points changeing, perhaps altering the NPM-s and NPC-s saving throws might be something to consider?
Or actually randomizing it. Perhaps that each enemy receives an as to say a set number for his or her or its saves, and then gets based on dc level range a d4,d6,d8,d10 roll to it?
I am not sure if it is possible to do, or would it greatly cost in server resources, it is just an idea.

[Avatar6666]

Only thing I disagree here with is the perception of armor ac. Its not representation of dodging an attack. Hugh ac heavy plate shows the metal is causing glancing blows. You would need a armor smirh on a regular basis too keep them in working order. Same as hit points damage reflects taking bruises and scrapes until a single mortal wound or endurance runs out.

Actually there is a great sight that clears up a lot of misconceptions about Armor. Here is the link. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm

[Lucadia]

Only thing I disagree here with is the perception of armor ac. Its not representation of dodging an attack. Hugh ac heavy plate shows the metal is causing glancing blows. You would need a armor smirh on a regular basis too keep them in working order. Same as hit points damage reflects taking bruises and scrapes until a single mortal wound or endurance runs out.

Actually there is a great sight that clears up a lot of misconceptions about Armor. Here is the link. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm

Not talking about real life armor. I gave explanation wizards gives for meaning of armor class when it comes to dnd.

[Feronius]

When I read the title of this thread, I was expecting to find a "The hitpoints of NPC are too high by comparrison" thread.
(I have no clue if I already posted on this thread, but if I did I will probably be repeating myself a little bit I suppose.)


The main arguement in the original post is that casters are at an unfair disadvantage with the current hit points distribution.
It has always been my impression that casters are generally weaker than melee classes on this server, especially at low levels.

If you try to play a caster class for example you will quickly find out that even your total number and complete arsenal of offensive spells is rarely enough to just deplete the hit points pool of a single monster until you're a much higher level. And those monsters don't exactly have the same problem, since you will die against anything that manages to get in melee range within mere seconds.
Now I know casters are not meant to be tanking, nor playing solo, but even outside of that I never got any indications that monsters lacked hit points. Perhaps this is a different case altogether on higher levels, but below level ten I have always found myself with a shortage of hit points or spell slots over anything else. And that is without taking into the account the number of spell slots you inevitably lose to buff up yourself and party members.


If any change is going to happen, please make it lean towards more hit points overall.
I fully agree with Winter83 that longer fights are preferable, especially on an RP server.



P.S. While I hope this change is not implemented, I would still like to see final boss characters receive more hit points regardless.

[Devolution]

As a new player to this server I can attest that this server is plenty hard as it is. Grouping is not only encouraged it's essentially mandatory to make any sort of forward progression. I've read the sentiment that lowering the PC HP values would mostly just hurt new players and I completely agree. The warriors in the catacombs can already crit for 30+ damage which is going to 1 shot most classes below level 3 instantly and if we were to lower PC HP it would make this an even bigger issue. To succeed with a group of level 3-6 people ranging in numbers from 4-6 you already have to strategize and plan for success and even then most of your party is going to fall at least once or twice.

This is already a challenging server that is completely unforgiving to new players, there is no hand holding, there aren't any easy quests to gain a few "freebie" levels, going out at night is certain death, soloing is impossible. I can't imagine any new players actually staying here if we were to make things even more challenging for them.

If there's a problem with the HP totals on this server I can tell you first hand it's not at the lower levels. I can't speak to what it's like in the higher levels because I'm not even close to that point yet, but I have a feeling if there is actually a problem it's with the high level characters and if we are going to try and balance something we should be more precise with our nerfs and not just do a blanket nerf that is going to hurt people who are already struggling.

[Ternce]

I argue firmly against random hit point rolls.

A fighter's flat 10 HP, a ranger's flat 10, and a barbarian's flat 12 HP are part of their compensation for not being able to cast Greater Magic Weapon and so on.

The classes who have a smaller range of hit points to roll into are hurt far less than the three classes I listed above, as they rely on a high HP total to counterbalance vulnerability to magic spells, and a lower AC score than monks and rogues.

If we were to change to a system of randomized HP, the class that would be hurt the least and benefit from it most is the cleric, which is already very powerful.

The problem with NPC's having low HP can easily be remedied in a number of ways with the tools we have currently.  The DM Buffing Tool allows you to add as much HP as you like to an NPC, and you can also adjust the constitution to whatever you wish the HP total to be.

Furthermore, for randomly spawned NPC's, I feel like the HP value should remain lower than that of a typical adventurer because NPC's are often more numerous, and for a horde of skeletons, we don't want each individual skeleton to feel like a PVP encounter. 

[BahamutZ3RO]

I argue firmly against random hit point rolls.

A fighter's flat 10 HP, a ranger's flat 10, and a barbarian's flat 12 HP are part of their compensation for not being able to cast Greater Magic Weapon and so on.

The classes who have a smaller range of hit points to roll into are hurt far less than the three classes I listed above, as they rely on a high HP total to counterbalance vulnerability to magic spells, and a lower AC score than monks and rogues.

If we were to change to a system of randomized HP, the class that would be hurt the least and benefit from it most is the cleric, which is already very powerful.

The problem with NPC's having low HP can easily be remedied in a number of ways with the tools we have currently.  The DM Buffing Tool allows you to add as much HP as you like to an NPC, and you can also adjust the constitution to whatever you wish the HP total to be.

Furthermore, for randomly spawned NPC's, I feel like the HP value should remain lower than that of a typical adventurer because NPC's are often more numerous, and for a horde of skeletons, we don't want each individual skeleton to feel like a PVP encounter. 

I had a pack of moormen do 113+ dmg in a couple of rounds today, and then some skeletal knights did the same thing later. HP is absolutely needed.

[Jeebs]

I argue firmly against random hit point rolls.

A fighter's flat 10 HP, a ranger's flat 10, and a barbarian's flat 12 HP are part of their compensation for not being able to cast Greater Magic Weapon and so on.

The classes who have a smaller range of hit points to roll into are hurt far less than the three classes I listed above, as they rely on a high HP total to counterbalance vulnerability to magic spells, and a lower AC score than monks and rogues.

If we were to change to a system of randomized HP, the class that would be hurt the least and benefit from it most is the cleric, which is already very powerful.

If by that, you mean going back to the earlier NWN versions where you got a roll instead of automatically being granted the max amount of HP your class gets, all that will do is people will wait to see how many HP they're getting, then cancel and re-level until they get the maximum amount regardless. It's what always happened on any server I played on back then, and I'm fully convinced it's one of the reasons they just started giving out max HP on levels in the first place.

[swbf2lord]

I argue firmly against random hit point rolls.

A fighter's flat 10 HP, a ranger's flat 10, and a barbarian's flat 12 HP are part of their compensation for not being able to cast Greater Magic Weapon and so on.

The classes who have a smaller range of hit points to roll into are hurt far less than the three classes I listed above, as they rely on a high HP total to counterbalance vulnerability to magic spells, and a lower AC score than monks and rogues.

If we were to change to a system of randomized HP, the class that would be hurt the least and benefit from it most is the cleric, which is already very powerful.

If by that, you mean going back to the earlier NWN versions where you got a roll instead of automatically being granted the max amount of HP your class gets, all that will do is people will wait to see how many HP they're getting, then cancel and re-level until they get the maximum amount regardless. It's what always happened on any server I played on back then, and I'm fully convinced it's one of the reasons they just started giving out max HP on levels in the first place.

That's able to be bypassed by hiding the amount of hp gained as shown on the level-up screen.

[Uranos]

I'm sticking to the full HP gang.

The HP is low as it is. No items that boost abilities is making life difficult as it is, potions don't work very long and using constitution ones is risky.

Monsters tend to have a lot of HP either way and one must remember - you are ONE, they are MANY!

[Bad_Bud]

I don't think I would mind giving certain monsters more hitpoints though.