Author Topic: Hit points - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook?  (Read 52945 times)

Soren / Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12979
Hit points - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook?
« on: December 17, 2013, 07:31:18 AM »
This has been on my mind for a while, but since it's likely going to be controversial, I'd rather just leave it up for the community to ponder too, and perhaps we can have a mature and balanced discussion about it.

Right now, we allow all PCs to receive maximum hit points on level up - whereas all NPCs (including all creatures) only get the average. This means PCs often have nearly twice the amount of hit points that an NPC of equal level would have.

The result, beyond the obvious imbalance between PCs and NPCs that this constitute, is that many of the relative balances within the D&D ruleset are warped. Mages become much less vulnerable, constitution as an ability score is made less significant and the same with the toughness feat - not to mention that what causes raw damage (like using weapons) just become much less effective overall compared to magic that has more varied effects.

I wonder if anyone else acknowledge this as being an imbalance though? And in that case, if it's something worth handling, perhaps even some ideas to how?

My own preference is to move PCs closer to NPCs. I don't like the idea of just rolling a dice on level up though, since it makes it way too random, so I'd rather just level it out by some flat modifier. But alternatively, one could also consider simply increasing NPC hit points to match PC progression.

Either way, please don't panic! It's not something that would happen in any near future and not without some significant community support. This isn't in any way meant to suggest that anyone are doing things wrong or otherwise either. I just put my faith in that we as a community are mature enough to be open to the debate, and then we'll see where sensible talk can bring us.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:00:43 PM by Zarathustra217 »

queenofspades

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 07:37:58 AM »
Personaly i like the dice rolling stuff. Adds an element of randomness to the whole deal but i woukd rather it be briken down into smaller dice. Or have both balanced out. Might make noc's a little more respected
Currently Playing
Filipa Florea
Gwendolyn Blackmore
Ylndar Lharithlyn
Erik Mihaly
Chloe Labelle

Soren / Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12979
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 07:41:25 AM »
Personaly i like the dice rolling stuff. Adds an element of randomness to the whole deal but i woukd rather it be briken down into smaller dice. Or have both balanced out. Might make noc's a little more respected

I can see your point - one challenge there is that it can cause people to speculate in de- and re-levelling to get a new dice roll, but with some clever use of NWNx, it might be possible to make sure the first roll is stored permanently.

Troukk

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 07:46:39 AM »
I agree with Soren on this. Right now the value of the toughness feat and constitution points is limited to the fact that what primarily determines your hitpoints is your base class.

Personaly i like the dice rolling stuff. Adds an element of randomness to the whole deal but i woukd rather it be briken down into smaller dice. Or have both balanced out. Might make noc's a little more respected

I can see your point - one challenge there is that it can cause people to speculate in de- and re-levelling to get a new dice roll, but with some clever use of NWNx, it might be possible to make sure the first roll is stored permanently.

If you can't fix the first die roll to be permanent, it's probably best to stay away from randomness, otherwise it will just promote releveling minmaxers.
Not all who wander are lost.

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 07:53:18 AM »
Most of your fundamental points are correct. Note however that it's not wizards who's be hardest hit by this, but high HP types. Assuming you take mean averages, a Wizard goes from 4hp/lvl to 2.5 after level 1, while the Fighter from 10hp/lvl to 5.5. In other words, a level 20 Wizard would lose roughly 29hp while a level 20 fighter would lose 86 and a level 20 barbarian around 105.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

APorg

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Fanatic Xenophile
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 07:54:36 AM »
Personaly i like the dice rolling stuff. Adds an element of randomness to the whole deal but i woukd rather it be briken down into smaller dice. Or have both balanced out. Might make noc's a little more respected

I can see your point - one challenge there is that it can cause people to speculate in de- and re-levelling to get a new dice roll, but with some clever use of NWNx, it might be possible to make sure the first roll is stored permanently.

Personally I hate randomness. I'd much prefer averages.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4952
  • Potm's own forum troll
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 08:17:11 AM »
Logical thinking,
But from the player side you are used to what it is, monsters are not weak people still die plenty of times and that while we pcs are stronger hit points wise.

Locking the rolls would rubb a lot of people the wrong way I think, everyone used to either want max rolls or they rerolled such is the online nwn way :)
Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

BahamutZ3RO

  • Master of Many Alts
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2615
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 08:22:50 AM »
Server's hard enough with everyone getting max hp. :/ I don't really see this as helping any classes. On the contrary, I think it would make PvP combat even faster and more tipped to whoever jumps who first. It would also make PvM MUCH harder in my mind (and not in a good way).
: )




Gilad Abrams

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 08:38:04 AM »
Their are already high damage output builds that can cut down most pcs in a strike or two in pvp. Taking away hp would only widen that gulf. I'd say things are fine as they are. Also the point about pvm is also well taken and true.

Telkar

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 08:51:40 AM »
Hm...Max HP desert trolls. That's going to be tedious. :)

I like the idea of lowering PC hp instead of making NPC hp higher. If that direction were taken, would the PCs' base hp actually have to be halved to match the NPCs? Wouldn't it be a bit higher than that? I don't know how NPCs' hp is calculated here.

Don't like random hp rolls.

Paragonville

  • Demiplane Escapee
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1634
  • actly ezlin
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 08:51:51 AM »
Indeed.  This would only make this server even more crushing.  Already, starting characters get mauled to death by rats or grimishka.  Less HP will only make it worse.

queenofspades

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 08:58:44 AM »
The only way i could see rolls working is if instead of d6 d10 etc. that we get 2 or more dice rolls

So say.

2d2
2d3
2d4
2d5
Perhapse 3d4 for barbarians. Dunno if you  can have odd dice like that

If they are both random it should up the average as it is

This or bringing one party in to line with the other to make things fair.
Currently Playing
Filipa Florea
Gwendolyn Blackmore
Ylndar Lharithlyn
Erik Mihaly
Chloe Labelle

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 09:06:23 AM »
From a tabletop Dnd perspective theres a reason why npcs and monsters have higher constitution scores. They are designed to be challenging for pcs regardless of their die rolls.

But! Also, when it comes to balancing, we are missing the factor as pc on this server, we do not have access to permanent hp bonus such as a tome or items we can equip. Halving player pc hp will also cause pvp imbalances , as most weapons or good ones can easily kill another player in on a lucky critical in just a few swings. We would start to see non criticals perform the say way.

On the other side, if you increase hp on (monsters) you are going find it difficult to please the player base . Everyone that plays the server are not necessary mechanically inclined how to deal with high hp monsters and make combat more tedious.

Also, with how some creatures are, at half hit points on most pcs, you would start to see even the most sturdy of tanks , fall to that unlucky criticals. They are designed to have high hit points to defend the party and the healing time to do mending. Monsters already get free cheats in how many criticals they could roll in a row.

If your speaking of nps such as those in town, the guards, the Vistani, Im all for them  having their hp increased.

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4952
  • Potm's own forum troll
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 09:19:58 AM »
I can give a example I think/hope.
The skeleton knights in the ML crypts for example have a habbit of throwing around Crits like it is nobodies business, now these puppies with a party of 5 all around lvl 5 highest lvl 6.  1 tank 1 bard 1 cleric 1 rogue and 1 don't know what class it was had a hard time keeping them off.

cause they crit for at least 25hp dmg.  Now at those lvls well any lvl without the max hp rolls it would be murder ally.

Of course this is just a example, but the point is, the server is on one side very easy on the other side very hard.

if we also include the systems such as you die you lay there waiting for help chances are you have less hp you get instakilled way more often then how things are now.

honestly I do not see it as broken and what is not broken does not need fixing.

cause balance wise if you change players hit points or npcs hit points you would have so much to rebalance  and a few systems to scrape or redo as well.

cause everything to this point has been made for the server as it is currently.

Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

Budly

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5945
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 09:38:17 AM »
I think it will cause issues if it becomes random.

The server is already rather unforgiving when it comes to combat and setting. Thats what makes it awesome!

But, there is a way I say it can be implemented if it has to. Give players an options of Always get a 2/3 or 2/4 of the die as an option or the option to roll the die. Preferbly, I would say the system we have is the best. Since many spawns already have high HP. Take the alpha deep forest wolves. Their HP is pretty high and will take several 20 hit damage  worth of HP to kill

Soren / Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12979
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 09:39:22 AM »
To highlight the opposite point of view, the amount of HP people have make them feel much too self-confident. Without pointing at anyone in particular, it is rare that you see other tactics deployed than the straight ahead, frontal attack.

If the concern is that it would hurt low levels too much, a feasible option is giving full HP at lower levels but gradually scale it down as you progress. I believe 2nd ed. AD&D had it that way to an extend.

Most of your fundamental points are correct. Note however that it's not wizards who's be hardest hit by this, but high HP types. Assuming you take mean averages, a Wizard goes from 4hp/lvl to 2.5 after level 1, while the Fighter from 10hp/lvl to 5.5. In other words, a level 20 Wizard would lose roughly 29hp while a level 20 fighter would lose 86 and a level 20 barbarian around 105.

Well, it depends how you look at it really. Why I consider it affecting mages more is because it makes them prone to get killed in just a few well placed hits, whereas the same happening to a fighter would still give them some time to chuck down a potion or look for a friendly healer for aid.

BahamutZ3RO

  • Master of Many Alts
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2615
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 09:46:12 AM »
To highlight the opposite point of view, the amount of HP people have make them feel much too self-confident. Without pointing at anyone in particular, it is rare that you see other tactics deployed than the straight ahead, frontal attack.

If the concern is that it would hurt low levels too much, a feasible option is giving full HP at lower levels but gradually scale it down as you progress. I believe 2nd ed. AD&D had it that way to an extend.

Most of your fundamental points are correct. Note however that it's not wizards who's be hardest hit by this, but high HP types. Assuming you take mean averages, a Wizard goes from 4hp/lvl to 2.5 after level 1, while the Fighter from 10hp/lvl to 5.5. In other words, a level 20 Wizard would lose roughly 29hp while a level 20 fighter would lose 86 and a level 20 barbarian around 105.

Well, it depends how you look at it really. Why I consider it affecting mages more is because it makes them prone to get killed in just a few well placed hits, whereas the same happening to a fighter would still give them some time to chuck down a potion or look for a friendly healer for aid.

It isn't just a concern for low levels. Scythe-wielders in the Anubis temple can hit for 80+ damage through a stoneskin. Ebon tigers and Darklings can come out of stealth with a 40-50 dmg sneak attack. Reworking HP is going to mean going through the module with a fine-toothed comb and reworking encounters in nearly every dungeon to make it more forgiving in the sheer damage aspect.
: )




Paragonville

  • Demiplane Escapee
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1634
  • actly ezlin
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 09:49:17 AM »
To highlight the opposite point of view, the amount of HP people have make them feel much too self-confident. Without pointing at anyone in particular, it is rare that you see other tactics deployed than the straight ahead, frontal attack.

If the concern is that it would hurt low levels too much, a feasible option is giving full HP at lower levels but gradually scale it down as you progress. I believe 2nd ed. AD&D had it that way to an extend.

Most of your fundamental points are correct. Note however that it's not wizards who's be hardest hit by this, but high HP types. Assuming you take mean averages, a Wizard goes from 4hp/lvl to 2.5 after level 1, while the Fighter from 10hp/lvl to 5.5. In other words, a level 20 Wizard would lose roughly 29hp while a level 20 fighter would lose 86 and a level 20 barbarian around 105.

Well, it depends how you look at it really. Why I consider it affecting mages more is because it makes them prone to get killed in just a few well placed hits, whereas the same happening to a fighter would still give them some time to chuck down a potion or look for a friendly healer for aid.

It isn't just a concern for low levels. Scythe-wielders in the Anubis temple can hit for 80+ damage through a stoneskin. Ebon tigers and Darklings can come out of stealth with a 40-50 dmg sneak attack. Reworking HP is going to mean going through the module with a fine-toothed comb and reworking encounters in nearly every dungeon to make it more forgiving in the sheer damage aspect.

This.  Just -don't change it-.  If it isn't broken, don't "fix" it.

Troukk

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 09:49:45 AM »
If the concern is that it would hurt low levels too much, a feasible option is giving full HP at lower levels but gradually scale it down as you progress. I believe 2nd ed. AD&D had it that way to an extend.

This sounds pretty cool, even if no changes are done to total HP.
Not all who wander are lost.

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4952
  • Potm's own forum troll
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2013, 09:51:03 AM »
That might be your observation, but I do not share that.
I seen plenty of tackicks used,bottlenecking being the most used and obvious one.

You have to take into account with your reasoning that you know every system,code,critter,area  way better then most of us so your experience if you made a character and played would be totally different then the experience we get.
Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2013, 09:51:38 AM »
Quote
Well, it depends how you look at it really. Why I consider it affecting mages more is because it makes them prone to get killed in just a few well placed hits, whereas the same happening to a fighter would still give them some time to chuck down a potion or look for a friendly healer for aid.

This would cause them less time to seek aid. AS I said, a few well placed hits from a mob can already bring down high hit point tanks. Even less would make it necessary for healers to have "heals" to save them, and not cure criticals over time. Chugging a potion causes additonal attacks .

Is there a problem with self confident characters? All these front line fighters that do really well with their role is often due to party support, the tactics you may not notice, A full set of buffs.
This also comes across as a mentality to punish all groups in favor of attempting to knock the few down  a peg.

also nwn does not have 2.5 rules. It had 3 and 3.5 rules. Pcs and creatures was balanced to that end already. There is limitations at play also. We can not have AI behave just as good as a dm controling the monsters in choosing their tactics. That cr 10 challenge for a group of four 10th level players will be different from this platform then for tabletop.

Soren / Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12979
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2013, 10:01:17 AM »
Let me (again) stress that I'm not pointing fingers at anyone with this, and the suggestions hereof are entirely unwarranted. Nothing here is suggested on the basis of wanting to get at a select few (and punish the rest in the process). Let's all aspire to be amiable in how we discuss this.

also nwn does not have 2.5 rules. It had 3 and 3.5 rules. Pcs and creatures was balanced to that end already. There is limitations at play also. We can not have AI behave just as good as a dm controling the monsters in choosing their tactics. That cr 10 challenge for a group of four 10th level players will be different from this platform then for tabletop.

The point is in large that we don't follow 3 and 3.5 rules by giving everyone max HP at level up.

Budly

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5945
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2013, 10:10:08 AM »
Let me (again) stress that I'm not pointing fingers at anyone with this, and the suggestions hereof are entirely unwarranted. Nothing here is suggested on the basis of wanting to get at a select few (and punish the rest in the process). Let's all aspire to be amiable in how we discuss this.

also nwn does not have 2.5 rules. It had 3 and 3.5 rules. Pcs and creatures was balanced to that end already. There is limitations at play also. We can not have AI behave just as good as a dm controling the monsters in choosing their tactics. That cr 10 challenge for a group of four 10th level players will be different from this platform then for tabletop.

The point is in large that we don't follow 3 and 3.5 rules by giving everyone max HP at level up.

But my friend, the big diffrence is this is online and tweaked :)

Many servers give the full HP and many DMs tweak their campaigns in pen and paper to give full HP or a certain sum, over 50% without rolls.

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4952
  • Potm's own forum troll
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2013, 10:18:29 AM »
Well I wish to know a few things.

1: what do you wish the server to be? Closest thing to pnp or a nwn server?
2: you are this concerned with the imbalance you see and tactics used currently that something this controversial correction is needed?
3: have you played a character the past year from at least 1 to 15ish ?

The last question I will explain, to me and I don't mean to come across crass or grumpy mean attacking etc.  But such changes as these often gives me the idea some of the team excell at what they do but they are a bit out of touch or out of balance with the player experience.

Now this is not a personal attack but a honest thing I sometimes think and with me a few others.

...so much text to explain I'm not hostile -_-  
Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

Lucadia

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1298
  • Feral Mystic
Re: Hit pints - PCs versus NPC - An imbalance we overlook
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:55 AM »
Quote
The point is in large that we don't follow 3 and 3.5 rules by giving everyone max HP at level up.
No, but the monsters are already balanced in 3 and 3.5 rules to deal with max hp pcs. They are balanced to deal with those ungodly +6, +12 con items that are available as well. Dm can choose to allow players to have max hp on level if they wished.

At the current suggestion lead to insufferable amount of deaths for those that play arcane casters. if you average 80-100 hp at lv 20 on a mage, and had only half as the suggestion, the divine portion from a -single- fire storm from our various monster casters would be auto death for such pcs. A lot of spells would just instant kill d4 , d6 and possibly d8 classes, regardless of preparation.