Author Topic: 1650 Gothic earth limit  (Read 10899 times)

slash

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 744
Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2023, 02:02:33 PM »
It isn't just about technology, though. The old medieval social structure went away, along with nearly all of the traditional D&D character classes. Fighters and monks might still be around, but barbarians, paladins and rangers would be relics of the past. The Red Death's corruption of magic made it very dangerous to use at this point, so all magic-using classes (arcane or divine) would be extremely rare/non-existent. In their place came the more generic classes of D20 Modern.

And yet... there're still 21st century ideals in PoTM. Bring back slavery, bring back rasist barovians, bring back bigots who lynch same sex partners.

Eer mah Gerd Immersion broke long ago.


*Edit.

Okay. I'll be productive.

I'm not sure if you're trying to be sarcastic or not. But never the less. Ravenloft is a Fantasy setting. the bigotry and discrimination that takes place in the setting reflects the Gothic Horror setting and serves a purpose for making that Gothic Horror Element.

Hazlan already has slavery, represented by the subjugation of the Rashemi. Barovia is already extremely xenophobic and skeptical of magic. Port-a-Lucine has class struggles and marriage/love influenced by the political and social conventions.

The important distinction with bigotry and discrimination in fantasy settings is that it does not replicate/repeat patterns/behaviours/codes/signals of real life hate speech and discrimination. That's the important line that keeps fantasy social baggage fantasy and character/story focused.

Furthermore, Gothic Horror is kind of like. The best genre for exploring social issues. There's lots of papers already about how monsters in Victorian and Restoration writings emulate queer struggle. Not to mention how Gothic Horror tends to dress up different social issues in the lens of monsters and spooks as creative ways of exploring these issues without actually approaching the difficult subjects in direct case studies.

The whole 'muh immersion' broke is, idk. We're replicating literature genres and stories. Fantasy. Not real-life politics. Making these RL issues replicated IC as some kind of setting flavour would just be bringing modern social politics into a fantasy setting. Which would be more immersion breaking and pretty uncomfy for a lot of people.

I think it's pretty important to point out that Gothic Horror As a Genre is a very specific subset of Western literature that operates from a Judeo-Christian point of view, but uses euphemisms to avoid directly stating the unspeakable of the era. One of the books in question which does have homosexual themes to it would be A Picture of Dorian Gray, for which the explicit homoerotica saw the writer of the era imprisoned, and ruined the main character of the book (as well as his gay lover) as a cautionary tale of morality. While one could explore social issues, it's important to remember that the bedrock of the genre is distinctly geared towards creating tragedy as a result of man's vice and the unyielding social restrictions of their respective eras.

I'm not sure I'd advocate for someone who is close to the wire on the subject IRL to use Ravenloft as a platform for exploring these subjects and especially not more modernized social issues for which there are no references in Gothic Literature for, it seems an issue keyed for disaster.


That being said, I think we could safely argue that for the sake of diversity of setting and roleplay, that the technology and social structure of some of Ravenloft's domains extends beyond 1650, and I think one could safely go as far as the end of the 18th Century, as that's about where Dementlieu seems to lie in terms of the server representation of it, where old aristocratic systems and character archetypes can still exist, but haven't given away to the full industrialization and technologal overlap of the 19th Century. At the end of the 18th ( I.E., 1799) flintlocks, muskets, and literature is still entirely on par with Ravenloft's domains such as Lamordia and Dementlieu.

To be frank, it rankles my feathers a bit when the topic of IC bigotry toward IRL groups is brought up (which is no secret). And to some end, I can see some merit in portraying these issues (with the caveat that, in regards to LGBTQ+ subjects at least, most people today and in particular most non-LGBTQ+ people today do not have any real understanding about how people who fell under these labels were viewed or how these people viewed themselves). However, we should not be afflicting others with these experiences against their wishes.

There is space for marginalized people to share their experiences with others. However, there is not space for people to force those experiences on those people. On a related note, I would also go as far as to caution people who wish to portray a character who falls under a marginalized group which they are not a part of to understand the identities they are portraying as thoroughly as possible (and mind that no matter what, there will always be a gap in experience). I think that everybody here has seen enough minstrel acts and offensive stereotypes as it is.
"My soul is overflowing with obeisant reverence, and Your Most Illustrious Excellency of benignity, to you I most humbly bow." -Francesco Ferdinando Alfieri.

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1980
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2023, 04:11:28 PM »
It isn't just about technology, though. The old medieval social structure went away, along with nearly all of the traditional D&D character classes. Fighters and monks might still be around, but barbarians, paladins and rangers would be relics of the past. The Red Death's corruption of magic made it very dangerous to use at this point, so all magic-using classes (arcane or divine) would be extremely rare/non-existent. In their place came the more generic classes of D20 Modern.

And yet... there're still 21st century ideals in PoTM. Bring back slavery, bring back rasist barovians, bring back bigots who lynch same sex partners.

Eer mah Gerd Immersion broke long ago.


*Edit.

Okay. I'll be productive.

I'm not sure if you're trying to be sarcastic or not. But never the less. Ravenloft is a Fantasy setting. the bigotry and discrimination that takes place in the setting reflects the Gothic Horror setting and serves a purpose for making that Gothic Horror Element.

Hazlan already has slavery, represented by the subjugation of the Rashemi. Barovia is already extremely xenophobic and skeptical of magic. Port-a-Lucine has class struggles and marriage/love influenced by the political and social conventions.

The important distinction with bigotry and discrimination in fantasy settings is that it does not replicate/repeat patterns/behaviours/codes/signals of real life hate speech and discrimination. That's the important line that keeps fantasy social baggage fantasy and character/story focused.

Furthermore, Gothic Horror is kind of like. The best genre for exploring social issues. There's lots of papers already about how monsters in Victorian and Restoration writings emulate queer struggle. Not to mention how Gothic Horror tends to dress up different social issues in the lens of monsters and spooks as creative ways of exploring these issues without actually approaching the difficult subjects in direct case studies.

The whole 'muh immersion' broke is, idk. We're replicating literature genres and stories. Fantasy. Not real-life politics. Making these RL issues replicated IC as some kind of setting flavour would just be bringing modern social politics into a fantasy setting. Which would be more immersion breaking and pretty uncomfy for a lot of people.

I think it's pretty important to point out that Gothic Horror As a Genre is a very specific subset of Western literature that operates from a Judeo-Christian point of view, but uses euphemisms to avoid directly stating the unspeakable of the era. One of the books in question which does have homosexual themes to it would be A Picture of Dorian Gray, for which the explicit homoerotica saw the writer of the era imprisoned, and ruined the main character of the book (as well as his gay lover) as a cautionary tale of morality. While one could explore social issues, it's important to remember that the bedrock of the genre is distinctly geared towards creating tragedy as a result of man's vice and the unyielding social restrictions of their respective eras.

I'm not sure I'd advocate for someone who is close to the wire on the subject IRL to use Ravenloft as a platform for exploring these subjects and especially not more modernized social issues for which there are no references in Gothic Literature for, it seems an issue keyed for disaster.


That being said, I think we could safely argue that for the sake of diversity of setting and roleplay, that the technology and social structure of some of Ravenloft's domains extends beyond 1650, and I think one could safely go as far as the end of the 18th Century, as that's about where Dementlieu seems to lie in terms of the server representation of it, where old aristocratic systems and character archetypes can still exist, but haven't given away to the full industrialization and technologal overlap of the 19th Century. At the end of the 18th ( I.E., 1799) flintlocks, muskets, and literature is still entirely on par with Ravenloft's domains such as Lamordia and Dementlieu.

To be frank, it rankles my feathers a bit when the topic of IC bigotry toward IRL groups is brought up (which is no secret). And to some end, I can see some merit in portraying these issues (with the caveat that, in regards to LGBTQ+ subjects at least, most people today and in particular most non-LGBTQ+ people today do not have any real understanding about how people who fell under these labels were viewed or how these people viewed themselves). However, we should not be afflicting others with these experiences against their wishes.

There is space for marginalized people to share their experiences with others. However, there is not space for people to force those experiences on those people. On a related note, I would also go as far as to caution people who wish to portray a character who falls under a marginalized group which they are not a part of to understand the identities they are portraying as thoroughly as possible (and mind that no matter what, there will always be a gap in experience). I think that everybody here has seen enough minstrel acts and offensive stereotypes as it is.

This is sort of what I meant by:

Quote
I'm not sure I'd advocate for someone who is close to the wire on the subject IRL to use Ravenloft as a platform for exploring these subjects and especially not more modernized social issues for which there are no references in Gothic Literature for, it seems an issue keyed for disaster.

Gothic Literature has, for the most part, nothing to do with LGBTQ+ themes except for in a few cases, and in those literature pieces, they were not validating articles that would leave anyone who was LGBTQ+ feeling good about it. The setting takes what is important to you, and bitterly refuses you it, punishes you for it, and leaves you broken over the breaking wheel for it. It is a tale of tragedy and revenge, not comfort and validation.

If someone isn't emotionally stable and comfortable with having things important to them, personally, attacked or picked apart, especially when it comes to themes regarding sexuality (a classic detail piece of Gothic Horror literature) whether that is the person whom is most important to you being captured and despoiled by their social superiors (Bram Stoker's Dracula) or a tale of vanity and sexual pleasure crossing societal boundaries (A Picture of Dorian Gray), then it is probably important that they try their best to not engage with the subject matter, at all, or take a breather from the game.

Beyond that, then trying to tell other players that they can't play out certain themes on the server because they aren't those themes in real life, and thus won't meet your standards, is entirely against the spirit of the hobby to begin with, and is especially why one must not be so emotionally attached to the roleplay. That's the most important part; You should be able to at any point, put it down and step away and recognize that this is all a fake game.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2023, 04:13:22 PM by BraveSirRobin »

cooachlyfe

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2023, 05:00:38 PM »
Let me play my xenophobic Barovian in peace.

gresty99

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2023, 09:28:26 PM »

If someone isn't emotionally stable and comfortable with having things important to them, personally, attacked or picked apart,

hen it is probably important that they try their best to not engage with the subject matter, at all, or take a breather from the game.

See My Topic Post " "WHAT IS ROLEPLAY?" " for more Information

We Must try to learn how to be who we are

We Must understand of those people who are trying

We Roleplay to learn
We Roleplay to understand

Pav

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1372
  • Heard it all before, pal.
Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2023, 09:45:43 PM »
It isn't just about technology, though. The old medieval social structure went away, along with nearly all of the traditional D&D character classes. Fighters and monks might still be around, but barbarians, paladins and rangers would be relics of the past. The Red Death's corruption of magic made it very dangerous to use at this point, so all magic-using classes (arcane or divine) would be extremely rare/non-existent. In their place came the more generic classes of D20 Modern.

And yet... there're still 21st century ideals in PoTM. Bring back slavery, bring back rasist barovians, bring back bigots who lynch same sex partners.

Eer mah Gerd Immersion broke long ago.


*Edit.

Okay. I'll be productive.

I'm not sure if you're trying to be sarcastic or not. But never the less. Ravenloft is a Fantasy setting. the bigotry and discrimination that takes place in the setting reflects the Gothic Horror setting and serves a purpose for making that Gothic Horror Element.

Hazlan already has slavery, represented by the subjugation of the Rashemi. Barovia is already extremely xenophobic and skeptical of magic. Port-a-Lucine has class struggles and marriage/love influenced by the political and social conventions.

The important distinction with bigotry and discrimination in fantasy settings is that it does not replicate/repeat patterns/behaviours/codes/signals of real life hate speech and discrimination. That's the important line that keeps fantasy social baggage fantasy and character/story focused.

Furthermore, Gothic Horror is kind of like. The best genre for exploring social issues. There's lots of papers already about how monsters in Victorian and Restoration writings emulate queer struggle. Not to mention how Gothic Horror tends to dress up different social issues in the lens of monsters and spooks as creative ways of exploring these issues without actually approaching the difficult subjects in direct case studies.

The whole 'muh immersion' broke is, idk. We're replicating literature genres and stories. Fantasy. Not real-life politics. Making these RL issues replicated IC as some kind of setting flavour would just be bringing modern social politics into a fantasy setting. Which would be more immersion breaking and pretty uncomfy for a lot of people.

I think it's pretty important to point out that Gothic Horror As a Genre is a very specific subset of Western literature that operates from a Judeo-Christian point of view, but uses euphemisms to avoid directly stating the unspeakable of the era. One of the books in question which does have homosexual themes to it would be A Picture of Dorian Gray, for which the explicit homoerotica saw the writer of the era imprisoned, and ruined the main character of the book (as well as his gay lover) as a cautionary tale of morality. While one could explore social issues, it's important to remember that the bedrock of the genre is distinctly geared towards creating tragedy as a result of man's vice and the unyielding social restrictions of their respective eras.

I'm not sure I'd advocate for someone who is close to the wire on the subject IRL to use Ravenloft as a platform for exploring these subjects and especially not more modernized social issues for which there are no references in Gothic Literature for, it seems an issue keyed for disaster.


That being said, I think we could safely argue that for the sake of diversity of setting and roleplay, that the technology and social structure of some of Ravenloft's domains extends beyond 1650, and I think one could safely go as far as the end of the 18th Century, as that's about where Dementlieu seems to lie in terms of the server representation of it, where old aristocratic systems and character archetypes can still exist, but haven't given away to the full industrialization and technologal overlap of the 19th Century. At the end of the 18th ( I.E., 1799) flintlocks, muskets, and literature is still entirely on par with Ravenloft's domains such as Lamordia and Dementlieu.

To be frank, it rankles my feathers a bit when the topic of IC bigotry toward IRL groups is brought up (which is no secret). And to some end, I can see some merit in portraying these issues (with the caveat that, in regards to LGBTQ+ subjects at least, most people today and in particular most non-LGBTQ+ people today do not have any real understanding about how people who fell under these labels were viewed or how these people viewed themselves). However, we should not be afflicting others with these experiences against their wishes.

There is space for marginalized people to share their experiences with others. However, there is not space for people to force those experiences on those people. On a related note, I would also go as far as to caution people who wish to portray a character who falls under a marginalized group which they are not a part of to understand the identities they are portraying as thoroughly as possible (and mind that no matter what, there will always be a gap in experience). I think that everybody here has seen enough minstrel acts and offensive stereotypes as it is.

This is sort of what I meant by:

Quote
I'm not sure I'd advocate for someone who is close to the wire on the subject IRL to use Ravenloft as a platform for exploring these subjects and especially not more modernized social issues for which there are no references in Gothic Literature for, it seems an issue keyed for disaster.

Gothic Literature has, for the most part, nothing to do with LGBTQ+ themes except for in a few cases, and in those literature pieces, they were not validating articles that would leave anyone who was LGBTQ+ feeling good about it. The setting takes what is important to you, and bitterly refuses you it, punishes you for it, and leaves you broken over the breaking wheel for it. It is a tale of tragedy and revenge, not comfort and validation.

If someone isn't emotionally stable and comfortable with having things important to them, personally, attacked or picked apart, especially when it comes to themes regarding sexuality (a classic detail piece of Gothic Horror literature) whether that is the person whom is most important to you being captured and despoiled by their social superiors (Bram Stoker's Dracula) or a tale of vanity and sexual pleasure crossing societal boundaries (A Picture of Dorian Gray), then it is probably important that they try their best to not engage with the subject matter, at all, or take a breather from the game.

Beyond that, then trying to tell other players that they can't play out certain themes on the server because they aren't those themes in real life, and thus won't meet your standards, is entirely against the spirit of the hobby to begin with, and is especially why one must not be so emotionally attached to the roleplay. That's the most important part; You should be able to at any point, put it down and step away and recognize that this is all a fake game.

This is a very ignorant and reductive post.

One of the cornerstones of Gothic Literature is the subject of Gender and Sexuality. Modern Academics in this field continue revisiting and speaking of Queer expression as found in Gothic Literature. We see it in Bram Stoker, we see it in Mary Shelley.

Some articles that might interest you:

Heterosexual Horror: Dracula, the Closet, and the Marriage-Plot
The Queer and the Creepy: Western Fictions of Artificial Life
Queer Gothic: Angela Carter and the lost narratives of sexual subversion

and of course, for a better understanding on why people write on Gothic literature and looking for its queer themes, I always advise reading Jeffrey Jerome Cohen's Monster Culture, to understand what the word "monster" actually means and how it applies to Gothic fiction, and how that in turn may apply to issues of gender and sexuality.

Happy Holidays!

Frankz

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2023, 12:03:56 AM »
Sometimes, objects and events don't need deep interpretations. “Sometimes, a cigar werewolf in London is just a cigar werewolf in London."

William Roberts

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 655
  • Thrown a kettle over a pub...what have you done?
Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2023, 12:07:26 AM »
Why necro an 8 month old thread dog

It's still relevant?

None of the "fresh" discussion really has to do with the OP, so why it's occurring in a 10-year-old thread about a rule that the Devs are unlikely to change is anyone's guess.

Lock the thread?


Beauty like a tightened bow, a kind that is not natural in an age like this.

Cassius

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4415
Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2023, 12:14:26 AM »
Why necro an 8 month old thread dog

It's still relevant?

None of the "fresh" discussion really has to do with the OP, so why it's occurring in a 10-year-old thread about a rule that the Devs are unlikely to change is anyone's guess.

Lock the thread?
Good idea.