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Author Topic: 1650 Gothic earth limit  (Read 11316 times)

HoshaZilo

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1650 Gothic earth limit
« on: December 13, 2013, 02:47:57 PM »
From the FAQ section:


 :?: What is Gothic Earth

 :arrow: Gothic Earth is the name for the masque of the red death setting. It is set in the real world. One can come from any time period before the year 1650.

:?: Why 1650
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 02:50:23 PM by HoshaZilo »

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 03:04:07 PM »
From the FAQ section:


 :?: What is Gothic Earth

 :arrow: Gothic Earth is the name for the masque of the red death setting. It is set in the real world. One can come from any time period before the year 1650.

:?: Why 1650
Because after that was the Industrial Revolution, which gets pretty far away from what would be present in a D&D campaign and the world starts to become more modern. In fact, the earliest setting for D20 Modern is set in the 1660s.

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Ellana Twiggy

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 03:10:55 PM »
I would imagine it to be absolutely hilarious to see a 1920's gangster pop up in ravenloft with none of their stuff, I bet they would last all of thirty min.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 04:42:47 PM »
A modern/Futuristic PoTM server might be amusing to see.

Castle Ravenloft could be something like this:

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 07:41:22 PM »
It isn't just about technology, though. The old medieval social structure went away, along with nearly all of the traditional D&D character classes. Fighters and monks might still be around, but barbarians, paladins and rangers would be relics of the past. The Red Death's corruption of magic made it very dangerous to use at this point, so all magic-using classes (arcane or divine) would be extremely rare/non-existent. In their place came the more generic classes of D20 Modern.

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Norture

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2013, 02:04:42 PM »
How are monks even portrayed in the gothic earth setting, when the D&D monk is far more eastern?

Actually, better question. Could I roll a monk char, but say it's a nun?  :evil:

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2013, 02:10:14 PM »
Only real mentioning of monks for GE...
Quote
Monks
While there were many ecclesiastical monasteries during this time, the monks at these monasteries did not train themselves physically like the ascetics of this classic D&D class. Any monk-class characters from this time period would be from the far east, such as India or China or Japan, though there was virtually no direct contact between East Asia and Europe during this time period.


Nope.avi

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LadyDragn

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2013, 02:10:54 PM »
The Forgotten Realm Monks aren't all Eastern as far as I know. For example the Lathander Monk Order isn't. I think there is a Halfling order of monks as well. I could be wrong heh.

Edit: Also, in legends like Robin Hood, which was a European legend Monks existed, though they were noted as Friars.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 02:13:10 PM by Dawns Justice »

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2013, 02:30:27 PM »
The Forgotten Realm Monks aren't all Eastern as far as I know. For example the Lathander Monk Order isn't. I think there is a Halfling order of monks as well. I could be wrong heh.

Edit: Also, in legends like Robin Hood, which was a European legend Monks existed, though they were noted as Friars.

Most Forgotten Realms monks are of the Monk class, so yes.  They are not all eastern themed either.

See: Order of the Long Death, or that one Halfling order.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2013, 02:43:41 PM »
The Forgotten Realm Monks aren't all Eastern as far as I know. For example the Lathander Monk Order isn't. I think there is a Halfling order of monks as well. I could be wrong heh.

Edit: Also, in legends like Robin Hood, which was a European legend Monks existed, though they were noted as Friars.

Most Forgotten Realms monks are of the Monk class, so yes.  They are not all eastern themed either.

See: Order of the Long Death, or that one Halfling order.
This isn't about the Forgotten Realms, so that's irrelevant. The D&D monk class is based on Buddhist ascetic monks who train their bodies with martial arts such as kung-fu. This is why all monks have a "ki" power (such as ki fist). Ki is an eastern concept ("ki" is the Japanese word for it; it is called "chi" in China and "chakra" in India) of harnessing spiritual energy into physical power. While some other D&D settings like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms have "westernized" the class to make it more accessible, that is not true of the Gothic Earth.

Monks from the Gothic Earth would be Buddhists from India, China, Japan, and other parts of eastern Asia.

Christian monks (like Friar Tuck) have nothing in common with the D&D monk class.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 02:48:11 PM by Bluebomber4evr »

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2013, 02:56:45 PM »
The Forgotten Realm Monks aren't all Eastern as far as I know. For example the Lathander Monk Order isn't. I think there is a Halfling order of monks as well. I could be wrong heh.

Edit: Also, in legends like Robin Hood, which was a European legend Monks existed, though they were noted as Friars.

Most Forgotten Realms monks are of the Monk class, so yes.  They are not all eastern themed either.

See: Order of the Long Death, or that one Halfling order.
This isn't about the Forgotten Realms, so that's irrelevant. The D&D monk class is based on Buddhist ascetic monks who train their bodies with martial arts such as kung-fu. This is why all monks have a "ki" power (such as ki fist). Ki is an eastern concept ("ki" is the Japanese word for it; it is called "chi" in China and "chakra" in India) of harnessing spiritual energy into physical power. While some other D&D settings like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms have "westernized" the class to make it more accessible, that is not true of the Gothic Earth.

Monks from the Gothic Earth would be Buddhists from India, China, Japan, and other parts of eastern Asia.

Christian monks (like Friar Tuck) have nothing in common with the D&D monk class.

Friar Tuck doing kung-fu would have been hilarious. But in all seriousness, they were more the type to cloister in monasteries, studying, praying and copying passages of religious manuscripts. They have more in common with clerics than monks.[1]
 1. In Unearthed Arcane for 3.5 there is a variant "cleric, cloistered' which strongly resembles the western idea of a monk.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 03:00:42 PM by RedwizardD »

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2013, 03:09:50 PM »
If you want to play a Franciscan monk or similar, I'd say the best direction to go for that would be to go for a caster cleric. You'd have to find some sort of explanation as to why you suddenly have divine powers from the Big Man Upstairs, but I don't think it's hard to believe theologians like Thomas Aquinas have cleric levels themselves, with figures like Merlin being real in Gothic Earth.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2013, 03:23:42 PM »
The Forgotten Realm Monks aren't all Eastern as far as I know. For example the Lathander Monk Order isn't. I think there is a Halfling order of monks as well. I could be wrong heh.

Edit: Also, in legends like Robin Hood, which was a European legend Monks existed, though they were noted as Friars.

Most Forgotten Realms monks are of the Monk class, so yes.  They are not all eastern themed either.

See: Order of the Long Death, or that one Halfling order.
This isn't about the Forgotten Realms, so that's irrelevant. The D&D monk class is based on Buddhist ascetic monks who train their bodies with martial arts such as kung-fu. This is why all monks have a "ki" power (such as ki fist). Ki is an eastern concept ("ki" is the Japanese word for it; it is called "chi" in China and "chakra" in India) of harnessing spiritual energy into physical power. While some other D&D settings like Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms have "westernized" the class to make it more accessible, that is not true of the Gothic Earth.

Monks from the Gothic Earth would be Buddhists from India, China, Japan, and other parts of eastern Asia.

Christian monks (like Friar Tuck) have nothing in common with the D&D monk class.

Thanks! I'm glad this was actually addressed and it's not a horrible cultural mish-mash.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2013, 04:05:19 PM »
If you want to play a Franciscan monk or similar, I'd say the best direction to go for that would be to go for a caster cleric. You'd have to find some sort of explanation as to why you suddenly have divine powers from the Big Man Upstairs, but I don't think it's hard to believe theologians like Thomas Aquinas have cleric levels themselves, with figures like Merlin being real in Gothic Earth.
Magic is rarely used by most people living in the Gothic Earth because of the Red Death's corruption, and those that do use it only cast weak spells that have a lesser chance of attracting the Red Death's attention. Most Christian priests would have no knowledge of magic, but they'd have access to it once entering the Demiplane of Dread. They'd probably look upon it as some sort of miracle or gift from God.

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LadyDragn

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2013, 04:35:53 PM »
Friar Tuck doing kung-fu would have been hilarious. But in all seriousness, they were more the type to cloister in monasteries, studying, praying and copying passages of religious manuscripts. They have more in common with clerics than monks.

Haha, in all the films of Robin Hood I've seen, while preferring peace Friar Tuck can pack a punch, or thwak with his staff rather. LOL

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2013, 04:38:46 PM »
Friar Tuck doing kung-fu would have been hilarious. But in all seriousness, they were more the type to cloister in monasteries, studying, praying and copying passages of religious manuscripts. They have more in common with clerics than monks.

Haha, in all the films of Robin Hood I've seen, while preferring peace Friar Tuck can pack a punch, or thwak with his staff rather. LOL
That doesn't come close to making him a D&D monk, though.

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LadyDragn

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2013, 04:42:10 PM »
Oh. I completely agree Blue. Apologies for derailing a bit, I just got a chuckle out of RedWizards post.

And yes, thank you for clearing everything up with the info for monks.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2013, 05:41:38 PM »
As far as the west and monks are concerned, a distinction we need to make here.

A monk is an individual who lives cloistered away from society in an organized house under a religious order. They wouldn't be wandering the country-side or have much exposure to the outside world. Some examples that exist today would be the Carthusian order or the Order of St. Benedict.

A friar would be what we're talking about if we mean someone who has a public ministry. Teaching, preaching, working inside a public Church etc. Some examples that exist today would be the Franciscan Friars or the Dominican Friars.

So, if you are rolling a wandering preacher from Europe you would be a friar and not a monk.
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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2013, 07:02:36 PM »
Play a dude from the Indo-Greek kingdom of Baktria and say you've been chatting to the Chinese.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2013, 07:55:48 AM »
If you want to play a Franciscan monk or similar, I'd say the best direction to go for that would be to go for a caster cleric. You'd have to find some sort of explanation as to why you suddenly have divine powers from the Big Man Upstairs, but I don't think it's hard to believe theologians like Thomas Aquinas have cleric levels themselves, with figures like Merlin being real in Gothic Earth.
Magic is rarely used by most people living in the Gothic Earth because of the Red Death's corruption, and those that do use it only cast weak spells that have a lesser chance of attracting the Red Death's attention. Most Christian priests would have no knowledge of magic, but they'd have access to it once entering the Demiplane of Dread. They'd probably look upon it as some sort of miracle or gift from God.

That would be pretty damn interesting to make a monk (Cleric) who believe God took him to the Core and now given him powers to heal the wounds of the dying. A bit like Jesus, a new prophet in a new world in need of help.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2013, 08:01:58 AM »
If you want to play a Franciscan monk or similar, I'd say the best direction to go for that would be to go for a caster cleric. You'd have to find some sort of explanation as to why you suddenly have divine powers from the Big Man Upstairs, but I don't think it's hard to believe theologians like Thomas Aquinas have cleric levels themselves, with figures like Merlin being real in Gothic Earth.
Magic is rarely used by most people living in the Gothic Earth because of the Red Death's corruption, and those that do use it only cast weak spells that have a lesser chance of attracting the Red Death's attention. Most Christian priests would have no knowledge of magic, but they'd have access to it once entering the Demiplane of Dread. They'd probably look upon it as some sort of miracle or gift from God.

That would be pretty damn interesting to make a monk (Cleric) who believe God took him to the Core and now given him powers to heal the wounds of the dying. A bit like Jesus, a new prophet in a new world in need of help.

But you can't. Monk's can't cross class with anything unless its an prestige class. And even then most of the prestige classes aren't really useful for monks rp wise or combat wise unless perhaps you are making a shadow dancer or assassin I imagine. It would be nice to see a modified form of harper one day, but any type of altered prestige class or any new class in general would require a ton of effort and new haks.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2013, 08:40:27 AM »
That would be pretty damn interesting to make a monk (Cleric) who believe God took him to the Core and now given him powers to heal the wounds of the dying. A bit like Jesus, a new prophet in a new world in need of help.

But you can't. Monk's can't cross class with anything unless its an prestige class. And even then most of the prestige classes aren't really useful for monks rp wise or combat wise unless perhaps you are making a shadow dancer or assassin I imagine. It would be nice to see a modified form of harper one day, but any type of altered prestige class or any new class in general would require a ton of effort and new haks.
[/quote]

I don't think that's what Budly wants. He's talking about a monk as a monastic cleric (-> friar), rather than the actual D&D monk class.

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2013, 12:31:04 PM »
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMonksKnowKungFu

You do have Hospitallers, Templars and Sohei as examples of warrior-monks that aren't the typical DnD Shaolin cliché but I'd see them more fitting for multi-class rogues, fighters, blackgaurds, paladins, divine champions and weapon masters than the monk class mechanically.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 12:32:39 PM by Badelaire »

Feronius

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2013, 12:49:12 PM »
Actually, if your western monk concept goes on some kind of pilgrimage (let's say for example, you make it a personal goal to visit all the shrines on the server) you would still be a western type monk, but at the same time you would be traveling all the time much like an adventurer would. In most cases those pilgrims will probably not be carrying any weaponry (or any other possessions for that matter) with them. So if they were somehow forced to fight, hand-to-hand combat or using their walking stick to defend themselves  sound like very viable options and I can imagine them learning some basic self-defense before they venture out into the world. They will not be trained to the extend of a true martial artist, but enough to fend off a cutthroat or highwayman surely.

The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, for example, has a traveling monk as a pre-set choice. Their monks bridge the gap between eastern and western culture quite well.
And I'm not sure, but I think Friar Tuck was (in some stories at least) a traveling monk on a pilgrimage of sorts. Although his martial prowess is definitely not asian.



That said, the cleric class will probably still be a better match for your concept. Or if you do end up rolling with the monk class, you should make sure to at least avoid the more kung fu inspired abilities. Which puts you at such a huge disadvantage, in regards to combat mechanics, that in the end you would have been better off picking a cleric or fighter class anyway.
The one upside would be the ability to use monk only gear, which does have very fitting stats for an unarmed fighter and not all of it is necessarily restricted to the eastern culture. (Praying beads come to mind.)

So in conclusion, if you plan to roll a friar or pilgrim type of monk, you are better off going with a different class than monk.
(Unless you are willing to seriously restrict your combat effectiveness and refrain from using a lot of items, feats and abilities.)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 12:56:29 PM by Feronius »

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Re: 1650 Gothic earth limit
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2013, 01:00:38 PM »
Base monks using weapons that they do not gain "supreme advantage" in are both fine, and viable. A very good build you will hardly see can be monk/wm, even. Another variant of that is monk/champion of torm.

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