Stacking Spells/Ability Score Caps - How could (or should/or can) this change?

[Geiger]

What would you guys think of a system like this:

  All ability score spells (and abilities) do not stack with one another, only override if higher.

So, for example, a cleric could cast empowered bull strength, aura of vitality, and divine power. The roll the cleric gets on his empowered bulls strength is a +7, this overrides both the +6 from the divine power, and the +4 the aura of vitality.

So at the end of it, the caster will only have the +7 from the bulls strength, he'll have the AB from the divine power, and +4 dex, +4 con from the Aura.

  All of the 'animal name + ability score raise' spells are 'stabilized' in 3.5 fashion.

IE, Bulls Strength will provide an instant +4 bonus, rather than a roll, but under this system (it wouldn't override, or stack with anything else).

Discuss, be civil, and be excellent to one another!

[BahamutZ3RO]

Iirc Bulls and Divine Power will only stack if the Divine Power is cast first, making it impractical to abuse - you'll only end up with the higher of the two after your first cast of Divine Power wears off. Aura of Vitality's buff seems like a way of buffing Druids moreso than War Clerics and in that spirit I don't agree with hurting the stacking there.

Ain't broke, why fix?

[Lucadia]

Theres already limitation of +12 to stats total from buffs, you also get sudden request of a lot rebuilds/remakes/relevels etc. Ill also point out in your typhical dnd game pcs would have access to items they can keep equipped at all times adding to their stats. Due the nature of the server and power of such items that we can't have them, theres nothing wrong with have temporary buffs.

[Bad_Bud]

There are also things like this which do not exist in this game, which come frighteningly close to +12.  I think the general balance of ability buff stacking is fine, not to mention changing it would be an incredible amount of work.

If different caster types have access to different ability bonus spells (which would stack), they will all find each other more useful, which would encourage party play, so that's not a bad thing.

[Dhark]

With the generous amount of feats the server dishes out most casters will have "Empowered" by the time they have access to the animal named ability buffers, added to which there are a great many extra slot items out there; most can easily afford and extra spell devoted to their buff of choice and fairly reliably max out the spells result.

With this in mind I don't think there is a need for stacking ability modifiers, as it will only be used by loners to increase their power in bulldozing dungeons &/or to emulate the other classes and detract from the game's goal of team play.

I like Bud's idea of certain classes having the ability to stack certain modifiers, but I can't see it going toward promoting group play, beside which it might be awfully complicated to implement.

[BahamutZ3RO]

With the generous amount of feats the server dishes out most casters will have "Empowered" by the time they have access to the animal named ability buffers, added to which there are a great many extra slot items out there; most can easily afford and extra spell devoted to their buff of choice and fairly reliably max out the spells result.

Might just have been me but as a Wizard I would never have wasted a fourth circle spell slot on the off-chance of getting someone an extra +1 str/dmg.

Literally the only person who could abuse this stat-stacking thing is a level 13+ Cleric with War domain and it's not really worth the headache for them. To take advantage of the Divine Power str gain (which has now been nerfed, I believe?), they have to cast Divine Power - a spell that lasts rounds, not turns - then cast Bull's Strength, and then cast Aura of Vitality. That's not terribly practical, given that you generally want to pop Divine Power right before a fight so you know it isn't going to wear off in the middle of it. Standing around for two more casts while proccing Attacks of Opportunity against a horde of enemies isn't fun. At level 13, your Divine Power should last about 78 seconds, and once it wears out your strength is going to default to whatever is higher - your Bull's or your next Divine Power cast.

I don't see this as substantially increasing the power of anyone to solo a dungeon and/or emulate other classes - as I said, the only people with access to Aura of Vitality are Druids (who sorely need some love on this server) and Clerics with the War domain - for both, I think the real viability for this spell is for your group, think places like Perfidus where the fighter needs to be up front. The only people with access to Divine Power are Clerics, and its' short duration and intended use as a quick pre-fight buff make it less than ideal for abuse in stat-stacking. And most casters get access to the various stat buff spells, so they're hardly going to be able to emulate other classes.

[Lucadia]

to which there are a great many extra slot items out there;

This is quite misleading. I dont know where your parties are like, but all the ones at the Mist camp are usualy 1-2 caster and a lot of melee. being able to buff them is a good thing. Your going have a wizard or any other caster stressed out trying buff all the front liners with empowered spells.

Only clerics and druids have access to the aura of vitality that is stacking with the other buffs and its a circle 7th spell. Being +4, if they did -not- stack, there would be no reason for anyone cast it when empowered 4th level slots will do the job better.

With this in mind I don't think there is a need for stacking ability modifiers, as it will only be used by loners to increase their power in bulldozing dungeons

They was already capable of doing it before the change, its not going stop them if it was changed. Anyone readily prepared to seek what gear they want and play smartly can accomplish this.

[Bad_Bud]

First thing: Divine Power is stronger, not weaker, than before.  Divine Power now gives a +6 strength bonus regardless of your current strength score, regardless of whether or not you cast bull's strength before or after.  This gives Divine Power some of its utility back.  We removed the bonus attack per round from Divine Power several years ago due to certain engine limitations (it was way overpowered), and I think a static +6 strength bonus helps make up for that loss.  It also makes the spell more useful for clerics that aren't "power-clerics."  Besides, this is closer to the way it's implemented in 3.5 and it makes sense to me.

Second thing: Aura of Vitality is only available to clerics of the War domain.  A true power cleric is a cleric of both War and Strength.  A level 18 cleric of War and Strength can use their domain powers to hit the +12 strength cap without casting ANY spells.  The change to Divine Power doesn't change this.  The change to Aura of Vitality doesn't change this.

Really nothing is different for powerhouse characters.  It's the weaker, supporting characters that benefit from these recent changes.

With the generous amount of feats the server dishes out most casters will have "Empowered" by the time they have access to the animal named ability buffers, added to which there are a great many extra slot items out there; most can easily afford and extra spell devoted to their buff of choice and fairly reliably max out the spells result.

With this in mind I don't think there is a need for stacking ability modifiers, as it will only be used by loners to increase their power in bulldozing dungeons &/or to emulate the other classes and detract from the game's goal of team play.

I like Bud's idea of certain classes having the ability to stack certain modifiers, but I can't see it going toward promoting group play, beside which it might be awfully complicated to implement.

This is not an idea I was giving.  I'm saying this is how it already functions.  A great party has a mage and a cleric, not just one or the other.  Now Druids are simply invited to the mix.  Not allowing ability bonus stacking would simply put the druids back where they were.

[APorg]

This is not an idea I was giving.  I'm saying this is how it already functions.  A great party has a mage and a cleric, not just one or the other.  Now Druids are simply invited to the mix.  Not allowing ability bonus stacking would simply put the druids back where they were.

What I don't like about this is the implication that an ideal party consists of a cleric, a druid and a mage. But somehow people are turning away druids because they're satisfied with clerics and mages.

When has that ever been true? Remember, Druids are the cheapest way to get +5 nat AC. (For some, the only way.)

None of the casters have a problem being invited to groups.

[BahamutZ3RO]

This is not an idea I was giving.  I'm saying this is how it already functions.  A great party has a mage and a cleric, not just one or the other.  Now Druids are simply invited to the mix.  Not allowing ability bonus stacking would simply put the druids back where they were.

What I don't like about this is the implication that an ideal party consists of a cleric, a druid and a mage. But somehow people are turning away druids because they're satisfied with clerics and mages.

When has that ever been true? Remember, Druids are the cheapest way to get +5 nat AC. (For some, the only way.)

None of the casters have a problem being invited to groups.

I think what he's getting at is that nobody was going to go off to a high-level dungeon with only a Druid as a support caster. They'd be expecting a Mage and/or a Cleric as well.

[Crimson Shuriken]

I can not think of any particular combination that is overpowered, honestly. I like the current status quo. Aura of Vitality is a great spell, and having a druid for a big battle such as with Tannar'ri is a rare and epic feeling moment of right personnel and right place.

[Ellana Twiggy]

This is not an idea I was giving.  I'm saying this is how it already functions.  A great party has a mage and a cleric, not just one or the other.  Now Druids are simply invited to the mix.  Not allowing ability bonus stacking would simply put the druids back where they were.

What I don't like about this is the implication that an ideal party consists of a cleric, a druid and a mage. But somehow people are turning away druids because they're satisfied with clerics and mages.

When has that ever been true? Remember, Druids are the cheapest way to get +5 nat AC. (For some, the only way.)

None of the casters have a problem being invited to groups.

I would gladly take a druid into any adventuring party i was in. Well, so long as it was a druid that doesn't dry every time I kill an animal and skin it and take the meat. I love how owls insight stacks on top of owls wisdom, and only druids can give it.  As well as bark skin.  Sadly though, I have not really seen many druids about. I know of maybe one or two, maybe three at the most. And out of those sud would probably only really travel with one, and that's luca.

[HoshaZilo]

Literally the only person who could abuse this stat-stacking thing is a level 13+ Cleric with War domain and it's not really worth the headache for them. To take advantage of the Divine Power str gain (which has now been nerfed, I believe?), they have to cast Divine Power -

Well, considering clerics of war usually go with 13 STR (or higher), for the divine might/shield Divine power change was actually a buff... because seeing as most of us can do math 13+6 = 19  which is greater than 18... I believe it was used to create some diversity in clerical play, and limit the party support style clerics from grabbing divine might to just pop open chests and such.

[Lucadia]

Literally the only person who could abuse this stat-stacking thing is a level 13+ Cleric with War domain and it's not really worth the headache for them. To take advantage of the Divine Power str gain (which has now been nerfed, I believe?), they have to cast Divine Power -

Well, considering clerics of war usually go with 13 STR (or higher), for the divine might/shield Divine power change was actually a buff... because seeing as most of us can do math 13+6 = 19  which is greater than 18... I believe it was used to create some diversity in clerical play, and limit the party support style clerics from grabbing divine might to just pop open chests and such.

talking about lv 13th level cleric for the aura of vitality buff. Also even if the strength went to 19, instead of 18 (with divine power), this is not going add to any bonus to cracking a chest the brute force method as to gain a bonus, you need an even stat.

[Troukk]

I think spell stacking works just fine as it is.

[OnceOpenNowClosed]

As a cleric, I usually spend my time invisible and helping my party with healing and support from either an invisible state or with some archery support. These changes don't really effect how I play my character, I think they just benefit the druid class which with it's lack of spell-list and spell slots as well as item support and animal companion viability being shut down; I think the nature-lovers really needed this.

[swbf2lord]

They do benefit the cleric class. Significantly. Aura of Vitality? Want a level 13+ cleric to go with me all the time now. :p.

Not to mention, the other spell changes.

[BahamutZ3RO]

They do benefit the cleric class. Significantly. Aura of Vitality? Want a level 13+ cleric to go with me all the time now. :p.

Not to mention, the other spell changes.

Once again, Aura of Vitality is only available to a Cleric with the War domain.

[swbf2lord]

They do benefit the cleric class. Significantly. Aura of Vitality? Want a level 13+ cleric to go with me all the time now. :p.

Not to mention, the other spell changes.

Once again, Aura of Vitality is only available to a Cleric with the War domain.

True. Most clerics I know have the War domain, hence my.. forgetfulness.