Uneffective spells against undead now?

[Ellana Twiggy]

Acid fog
Blindness/deafness
Cloudkill
Dirge
Drown
Flesh to stone
Great thunderclap (this spell actually has 3 components, each requiring one of the 3 saves)
Healing sting
Horrid wilting
Implosion
Infestation of maggots
Mass blindness/deafness
Ray of enfeeblement
Stinking cloud

So, acid fog. . .right, because undead are immune to acid dmg now. . .along with several being immune/resistant to fire?
You can't blind something that see's now because its undead? They all have tremor sense now? Or blind sight?
Healing sting. . .just. . wow. . .

I think the majority of this list makes a great deal of sense, but some of it makes none at all.  Horrid wilting use to heal undead, not hurt them, even pc vamps, I know I've seen it happen before, but now I am guessing it wont do anything, not even heal regular undead. Ray of enfeeblement was the same way, a healing thing instead of a draining, at least the last time I saw it used on undead it was.  Implosion is a gimmie, it's only suppose to work on living things anyway, at least as I recall. Infestation of maggots. . .wouldn't want rotten ghouls or zombies or such becoming skeletons to kill you, which I think might be highly amusing. I could picture a juju/maddened corpse having infestation cast on it and it turning into a skeletal knight, I do not see it having any effect on anything that regenerates, like a vampire. Great Thunderclap. . .not quite sure why undead might be immune to this.
Flesh to stone, this was hashed out and argued about on the forums already. So I wont list my thoughts.
Stinking cloud, undead should be immune to poisons and diseases.
Drown, of course you can't drown a corpse.
Healing sting. . .ah. . not sure why this wouldn't be a thorn in all undead's side, it should be.

Thoughts?

[Avatar6666]

Yea I do not get why undead are immune to Acid Fog and healing sting? Why would they be immune to acid or healing?

[Bluebomber4evr]

Those spells all require Fortitude saves in order to work, and undead are supposed to be immune to any effect that requires a Fort save:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType

Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

[Bluebomber4evr]

In the case of acid fog, the spell still does acid damage, but the undead are not slowed (which is the effect that requires the Fort save)

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Acid_fog

Creatures inside the cloud must make a fortitude save or have their movement reduced by 50%.

[queenofspades]

So will undead still be knocked prone by failing the reflex save of Great Thunderclap?

[Bluebomber4evr]

So will undead still be knocked prone by failing the reflex save of Great Thunderclap?

They should be, they're just immune to the Fort save effect

[Bluebomber4evr]

If you're going to complain about healing sting, you should probably understand how the spell works first:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Healing_sting

You inflict 1d6 points of damage, +1 per caster level, to the living creature touched and gain an equal amount of hit points. You may not gain more hit points than your maximum with the healing sting.

There's no reason why this should work on undead.

[Avatar6666]

If you're going to complain about healing sting, you should probably understand how the spell works first:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Healing_sting

You inflict 1d6 points of damage, +1 per caster level, to the living creature touched and gain an equal amount of hit points. You may not gain more hit points than your maximum with the healing sting.

There's no reason why this should work on undead.

I could see it damaging the undead but the caster would not get the healing. Since there not living.

[OnceOpenNowClosed]

Not to stir the pot in discussions against the grain of change. As these changes are nice to have, but Acid Fog seems to me like it would effect objects. Acid is well. . . acid. So the undead trait of being immune to fortitude effects "(unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." It seems to me, logically that a fog of acid would disintegrate objects in it's vicinity. That's really the only arguable pseudo-error I see. Acid, as is demonstrable effects the flesh and bones, and though the scalding pain would be missing, a fog of acid would leave your zombie or skeleton a little worse for wear as it is made of organic matter. It is pretty hard for a skeleton to chase you if it's missing it's arms. . full of holes. . or headless.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Not to stir the pot in discussions against the grain of change. As these changes are nice to have, but Acid Fog seems to me like it would effect objects. Acid is well. . . acid. So the undead trait of being immune to fortitude effects "(unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." It seems to me, logically that a fog of acid would disintegrate objects in it's vicinity. That's really the only arguable pseudo-error I see. Acid, as is demonstrable effects the flesh and bones, and though the scalding pain would be missing, a fog of acid would leave your zombie or skeleton a little worse for wear as it is made of organic matter. It is pretty hard for a skeleton to chase you if it's missing it's arms. . full of holes. . or headless.

Please read the thread before posting. I've already addressed that:

In the case of acid fog, the spell still does acid damage, but the undead are not slowed (which is the effect that requires the Fort save)

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Acid_fog

Creatures inside the cloud must make a fortitude save or have their movement reduced by 50%.

(Also, the argument about "corpses" isn't particularly valid as "undead" also encompasses things that have no physical form such as ghosts, spectres, wraiths, allips, apparitions, and shadows to name a few. And those that do have a physical form aren't alive and do not feel pain)

[OnceOpenNowClosed]

My apologies, I formulate my replies rather slowly and I posted it ignoring the red writing -_-".

[Norture]

Re healing sting:
Just because it's a necromancy spell doesn't mean it does negative energy damage, it's a life drain. The damage comes from it draining life and giving it to you. That's why it wouldn't work on undead, there is no life to drain. You can't drain negative energy from them to heal yourself, although it would be pretty awesome if the spell was edited to work that way-- If you use it on an undead, it'll drain negative energy and harm you for the amount drained.

Not to stir the pot in discussions against the grain of change. As these changes are nice to have, but Acid Fog seems to me like it would effect objects. Acid is well. . . acid. So the undead trait of being immune to fortitude effects "(unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." It seems to me, logically that a fog of acid would disintegrate objects in it's vicinity. That's really the only arguable pseudo-error I see. Acid, as is demonstrable effects the flesh and bones, and though the scalding pain would be missing, a fog of acid would leave your zombie or skeleton a little worse for wear as it is made of organic matter. It is pretty hard for a skeleton to chase you if it's missing it's arms. . full of holes. . or headless.

Blue just addressed this. Acid fog still does damage, but it does not slow undead. The slowing is a fort save and that is what was changed. The damage is not.

[Ellana Twiggy]

If you're going to complain about healing sting, you should probably understand how the spell works first:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Healing_sting

You inflict 1d6 points of damage, +1 per caster level, to the living creature touched and gain an equal amount of hit points. You may not gain more hit points than your maximum with the healing sting.

There's no reason why this should work on undead.

I could see it damaging the undead but the caster would not get the healing. Since there not living.

That's what I was thinking, I have always been under the impression that any type of healing would work similar to harming when it comes to undead. But if it works like a draining spell, like vamperic touch, then seeing it harm the caster would be rather neat and a good life lesson.

Thank you for explaining the rest, it makes vastly more sense now.

Not to stir the pot in discussions against the grain of change. As these changes are nice to have, but Acid Fog seems to me like it would effect objects. Acid is well. . . acid. So the undead trait of being immune to fortitude effects "(unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." It seems to me, logically that a fog of acid would disintegrate objects in it's vicinity. That's really the only arguable pseudo-error I see. Acid, as is demonstrable effects the flesh and bones, and though the scalding pain would be missing, a fog of acid would leave your zombie or skeleton a little worse for wear as it is made of organic matter. It is pretty hard for a skeleton to chase you if it's missing it's arms. . full of holes. . or headless.

Please read the thread before posting. I've already addressed that:

In the case of acid fog, the spell still does acid damage, but the undead are not slowed (which is the effect that requires the Fort save)

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Acid_fog

Creatures inside the cloud must make a fortitude save or have their movement reduced by 50%.

And the movement makes sense, so, I think its all pretty kosher.  

[armybrat69]

Re healing sting:
Just because it's a necromancy spell doesn't mean it does negative energy damage, it's a life drain. The damage comes from it draining life and giving it to you. That's why it wouldn't work on undead, there is no life to drain. You can't drain negative energy from them to heal yourself, although it would be pretty awesome if the spell was edited to work that way-- If you use it on an undead, it'll drain negative energy and harm you for the amount drained.

+1 Now this is an idea for sure. Healing sting is quite a misleading name for the spell IMO. It makes sense that since you are draining the life out of something you would just end up hurting yourself instead if doing it on undead.

[Tyras]

So with the spell changes being made to more accurately reflect the nature of the undead, is sunburst going to be made to function as the spell description states and vampires are destroyed on a failed reflex save?

[Bluebomber4evr]

So with the spell changes being made to more reflect the nature of the undead, is sunburst going to be made to function as the spell description states and vampires are destroyed on a failed reflex save?

That was the plan as well, but I don't know if Soren was able to do that as well. As soon as I can confirm he has, I will make an update to the spell change thread.

[Norture]

That's really good to hear.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Yeah the main problem with the sunburst as Bioware made it is that the way it checks to see if something is a vampire or not is if it is using the default Bioware vampire model. Anything that didn't have that model wouldn't count as a vampire This was problematic not just with MPC vampires, but also many of our custom NPC vampires (like Strahd! ). The plan was to update the spell to have additional checks for the subrace field and the variables applied to player skins that make them MPC vampires.

[Avatar6666]

Yeah the main problem with the sunburst as Bioware made it is that the way it checks to see if something is a vampire or not is if it is using the default Bioware vampire model. Anything that didn't have that model wouldn't count as a vampire This was problematic not just with MPC vampires, but also many of our custom NPC vampires (like Strahd! ). The plan was to update the spell to have additional checks for the subrace field and the variables applied to player skins that make them MPC vampires.

That sounds really cool Idea...

[Badelaire]

Does cloudkill only damage with acid on a failed fort check?

[RedwizardD]

Yeah the main problem with the sunburst as Bioware made it is that the way it checks to see if something is a vampire or not is if it is using the default Bioware vampire model. Anything that didn't have that model wouldn't count as a vampire This was problematic not just with MPC vampires, but also many of our custom NPC vampires (like Strahd! ). The plan was to update the spell to have additional checks for the subrace field and the variables applied to player skins that make them MPC vampires.

Good luck! It would be exciting to see this work.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Does cloudkill only damage with acid on a failed fort check?

According to this: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Cloudkill

...yes.

But that's how Bioware made it I'm not sure how this particular spell was altered. Soren asked me to list all the spells that have Fort saves so he could look into them and alter them to not affect undead if they didn't already account for that. It may be that he didn't do anything to cloudkill since it didn't affect them at all as it was(it's death magic, which undead were already immune to). Hopefully Soren will clarify when he has the time.

[Crimson Shuriken]

  Very cool changes!

Only one that is not quite right is implosion though, at least as I know the real spell. It affects all corporeal creatures equally, only gaseous and incorporeal creatures should be immune.
That is ultimately only a minor nitpick. I don't often find it arise that I implode a mummy or skeleton  

edit/nevermind: Fortitude saves without any fortitude save or even CON ability score hehe

[Badelaire]

Does cloudkill only damage with acid on a failed fort check?

According to this: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Cloudkill

...yes.

But that's how Bioware made it I'm not sure how this particular spell was altered. Soren asked me to list all the spells that have Fort saves so he could look into them and alter them to not affect undead if they didn't already account for that. It may be that he didn't do anything to cloudkill since it didn't affect them at all as it was(it's death magic, which undead were already immune to). Hopefully Soren will clarify when he has the time.

I checked that NWN wiki entry before and it was confusing the crap out of me. The way it words it, makes it look like fort checks roll against all its effects. Went IG to test the spell. When you enter the cloudkill it'll slow you down without making you roll a save (tested with a 7HD PC) like acid fog does and the only save rolled in the spell's duration is vs death if you're  4-6HD. Now I'm less confused. If I'm reading the notes right then undead should be immune to that movement decrease.

[Bad_Bud]

It says a fortitude save to avoid the movement speed decrease is only made if the target has less than 7 hit dice.  Otherwise there is no save, and they are always slowed.

I'd like to add that the PnP version of Acid Fog does not have a save.  I think the spell should be changed such that there is no fortitude save versus the slow.  Acid Fog is crap.  It also reduces vision and attack rolls, but I'm not sure how practical those are.  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidFog.htm

The same vision and attack roll decreases apply for incendiary cloud, another garbage nwn spell.