Enchanting Restrictions

[Onkel Bob]

Hello!


I do not know if this is the right place to start this discussion, and when I searched for anything like it I did not find anything at all. If this suggestion has already been forwarded then forgive me for bringing it up again, and if you would be so kind as to find it and link it as a reply I'd be really happy. This is merely a suggestion and a curious thought I've had for a couple of days. If this happens to be in the wrong thread, forgive me. If so I'll gladly move it.

Enchanting is a pretty big deal, right? You make an immensely powerful item at the cost of a lot of experience points at a very high level. This is nothing anyone can do in a single weekend, and it's something that you want to do very carefully and get perfectly right. Now the cost for this high reward is a real pain in the arse and some people would gladly avoid paying the price and still get an awesome weapon (I will mainly be discussing weapons.). They may have a friend who can log in on an old, closed character and have them sacrifice that xp they need. This is indeed exploiting, and I don't know if it has been fixed and unless it has, it's quite a bother to keep track of such activities. Some people may get away with it and that's not good. Unless they feel bad about it they won't get a punishment for doing that. This may not be a problem anymore, but the point that I will speak about soon will cover this bit as well.

Another problem is griefing. This is something that could occur, sadly, and it may even make people ragequit. This is also not allowed but it can still happen. In the worst case you may have drawn your new enchanted weapon and shield before being killed by someone. You drop your two immensely powerful things that you've spent ages on saving xp and money to create and this random guy picks it all up, along with your gold, distributes it in some strange way or dissappears with it before a DM can do something. This would also be a pain in the butt.

Now if say a lawful good paladin enchants his greataxe and uses it till he reaches level 20. He wants to retire but thinks that he wants to support a friend who's having some trouble keeping himself alive first. He gives his axe to his friend, who plays a Chaotic Evil Caliban Barbarian, and he can use it without a problem. This would again be an exploit unless there is a hellova lot of RP involved, but it can occur, and people can get away with it.

Now, this is what I imagine happens when you enchant a sword, for example. You bind a part of your soul to that sword, a part of -you- truly becomes a part of the sword. Someone might even roleplay forgetting some memories, and in most cases you loose some battleprowess, meaning a level. Now let's say that the character who did this was a Chaotic Good elven Ranger, do you think his -soul- would at some point work as efficiently with a Lawful Evil gnome Assassin as it would with himself? I can't imagine that, truly I cannot with my current perception on enchanting.

Now, my suggestion is quite simple, but I don't even know if it is possible to implement it. Still I am going to say it  so that people may agree or disagree. My goal is to make a discussion after all.

Make restrictions on the items that have been enchanted, determined by the character who's sacrificing his soul to enchant something. A Chaotic Evil Human Cleric's sword should be usable only by Chaotic Evil human Clerics possibly even more specifically, so it is usable just by that character. This would completely remove exploting and you wouldn't have to fear that your nemesis will some day grief you and use your own sword against you. You might even keep it as a ghost when you die. And if you have been killed and the other player wants to take the sword you can give it to him as a ghost, as long as it is roleplaying, intriguing, inspiring adventure and conflict and most important of all that no one gets really upset. Should you wish to give the sword to someone, you would be forced to get the help from a DM first in order for the other person to be able to use it. This system would be safe, controlled and logical. Of course there's a problem with the UMD skill, but surely there's a way to prevent that as well if it's worthwhile to think about this system in the first place.

Thank you for reading. I'd be really happy to see people's views on my crazy thoughts.

[dark_majico]

My suggestion would be to try enchanting out first so you understand what is involved and what you can/can't do.

[APorg]

They may have a friend who can log in on an old, closed character and have them sacrifice that xp they need. This is indeed exploiting, and I don't know if it has been fixed and unless it has, it's quite a bother to keep track of such activities. Some people may get away with it and that's not good. Unless they feel bad about it they won't get a punishment for doing that. This may not be a problem anymore, but the point that I will speak about soon will cover this bit as well.

It's worth noting that the consequences for this type of exploit are severe indeed and in the past have usually resulted at least in the loss of enchanted equipment.

In the worst case you may have drawn your new enchanted weapon and shield before being killed by someone. You drop your two immensely powerful things that you've spent ages on saving xp and money to create and this random guy picks it all up, along with your gold, distributes it in some strange way or dissappears with it before a DM can do something. This would also be a pain in the butt.

Actually this is not against the rules. If your character is killed, the killer can take your weapon/shield -- even if it is enchanted. Most people will be considerate enough not to do this lightly since it is indeed an expensive and personal cost; but it is not forbidden.

Now if say a lawful good paladin enchants his greataxe and uses it till he reaches level 20. He wants to retire but thinks that he wants to support a friend who's having some trouble keeping himself alive first. He gives his axe to his friend, who plays a Chaotic Evil Caliban Barbarian, and he can use it without a problem. This would again be an exploit unless there is a hellova lot of RP involved, but it can occur, and people can get away with it.

This is against the rules[1] and again the penalties for being caught are probably not worth the risk.

Now, my suggestion is quite simple, but I don't even know if it is possible to implement it. Still I am going to say it  so that people may agree or disagree. My goal is to make a discussion after all.

I suspect that the problem is that making enchanted items alignment-restricted is that it would require 9 copies of each enchanted item template. That's a lot of palette space...

1.	See the rule: "- Don't hand out items/gold based on OOC things. Don't give out items because of OOC based friendships. Don't give away items because you are abandoning your character." http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2863.0

[Bluebomber4evr]

er, aprog, our crafting systems don't take palette space beyond the initial item templates (sword, boots, armor, etc.). Once you start crafting/enchanting the item properties are added dynamically. This was done specifically to save on palette space.

[APorg]

er, aprog, our crafting systems don't take palette space beyond the initial item templates (sword, boots, armor, etc.). Once you start crafting/enchanting the item properties are added dynamically. This was done specifically to save on palette space.

Oh, that's good to know! So then adding alignment restrictions based on the enchantment target may be quite feasible then.

[Troukk]

Such a new system may be troublesome for 3 reasons:

- Character alignment changes with a character's actions.

- Enchanted equipment is often used as a trophy and/or spoils of war.

- Sometimes people will use enchanted equipment as something to trade in exchange for something they want.

[Ellana Twiggy]

What Troukk says is very true, on very rare occasions even sudhri will enchant a pair of boots and perhaps sell them or auction them at an absurd amount of coin. It would make it a real pain if such ended up only being able to be used by a ln monk human.
I would say,
a. if you get something enchanted once you reach the level to do so, then don't go waiving it around every where where some one might try an gank you for it. Though, honestly I don't think any one here would do that.
b. if some one kills you for such a valuable item, why don't you recruit some friends and either a put a bounty on them or hunt them down and get it back.
c. you really should be able to hold onto your enchanted gear by the level it takes for you to get them, even after a level loss. By the time you are level 14/15 which ever it is, you should be a pretty good force to be reckoned with, no matter the class.

Weapons and armor, I am not really opposed to, the amount of xp/part of your soul used to make those is actually quite considerable. Perhaps a racial or alignment restriction pulled from the creating char would not be out of the question. Racial and class would be the most likely I think though, as Troukk says, your alignment can change over time with actions. It also depends on the time and resources it would take to adjust the scripting for that, and given that I imagine there are many things on the plate from the mist ways, to new lands, to a weaving system, it would most likely not be seen for a while if it were deemed necessary.
If the devs wanted to get really creative they could make your armor and weapon an annoying talking version of yourself, which I would find highly amusing.  I bet a talking sudhri weapon would drive anyone insane.

[Bluebomber4evr]

er, aprog, our crafting systems don't take palette space beyond the initial item templates (sword, boots, armor, etc.). Once you start crafting/enchanting the item properties are added dynamically. This was done specifically to save on palette space.

Oh, that's good to know! So then adding alignment restrictions based on the enchantment target may be quite feasible then.

It is IF it's one of the item properties that can be added dynamically. Not all of the properties can be added that way.

[Onkel Bob]

My suggestion would be to try enchanting out first so you understand what is involved and what you can/can't do.

That's a merciless suggestion. How did you know I have not enchanted anything myself? Anyhow, if I got something wrong, I'd be happy if someone corrected me. I'd truly be a waste of time if I was rambling about something that I don't even know anything about, right? That's problably the case...

Such a new system may be troublesome for 3 reasons:

- Character alignment changes with a character's actions.

- Enchanted equipment is often used as a trophy and/or spoils of war.

- Sometimes people will use enchanted equipment as something to trade in exchange for something they want.

Character alignment may change, yes. However it is a very slow process and most characters stay in the same alignment throughout their life, I am sure. But maybe it would be possible to change the properties of an item so that they may match the changes your character goes through? The alignment restriction is something that I just thought of, maybe it's a clumsy way of doing it for various reasons. I am not an expert on the system and I trust that you understand it better than I do. My suggestion did not lay in the way of doing it but in the actually idea of restrictions on items. If there's no worthwhile way of making it possible at all then I guess we can forget it, but I'm still interested in hearing people's opinions.

As for trophies and spoils of war, that would still be possible. Only that you'd need to speak with the other player before you run off with anything, and with a DM before you can use it. Correct me if I am wrong (again) but aren't people supposed to have a DM supervising a PvP event with a deadly outcome anyway? We return to the mechanical issue which would be that changing an items properties like that would be impossible to do while IG. In that case, I suppose there's nothing to do about it. Still, I am pretty sure that the defeated player would appreciate a more controlled way of loosing his items. Especially if he was ambushed unexpectedly or griefed, which is still possible even if you are high level.

Using enchanted items for trade would obviously become a problem. Still I believe that enchanted items are so immensely valuable that it wouldn't actually be a problem as bad as you may think. For example if you have a level 18 character who for some reason needs a lot of gold for his plot. You could simply enchant something and sell it at a ridiculous price and you'd have all the money you need. Most people can't even afford to buy it from you because it's on an entirely different level than the average loot when it comes to value. That may be just me though, and if you disagree I understand that. The best thing would obviously be that the person who has enchanted the sword could put and remove restrictions himself, however that would make the mechanical part even more complicated.


As an answer to Aprog I can only say that this system would make it harder for people to exploit in one way or another. Exploiting is still exploiting and punishable in any case, however as it is now people could get away with it, even if most people get caught. Was it about a year ago that someone logged in with a premade character somehow, killed some people, took their stuff and left and it couldn't be helped? Sadly I don't remember what the incident was called and I don't know if it's possible that could happen anymore. But this could be a kind of safety measure.

[APorg]

I think it'd be interesting if adding an alignment restriction to your equipment were an option. But if it became compulsory, then I think the cons would outweigh the pros.

[Onkel Bob]

I think it'd be interesting if adding an alignment restriction to your equipment were an option. But if it became compulsory, then I think the cons would outweigh the pros.

Yes, that would be very nice. Good idea!

[Lucadia]

Not in the rules at all. you manage to take item from somebody , w hich likely their enchanted weapon. you not going be required to give it back. other gear likely wont be taken unless you manage pick pocket it. Theres no punishment for taking items other then the character consequences.

Enchanting process requires lv 14. theres not exactly an easy way to exploit and unless your the enchanter yourself making the items, theres going be witness about item being made as well.

and no iv had several pcs that had alignment drift over a year being in several zones. Im not going be thrilled if you take my weapon and tell me has a alignment restriction.

[Troukk]

My suggestion would be to try enchanting out first so you understand what is involved and what you can/can't do.

That's a merciless suggestion. How did you know I have not enchanted anything myself? Anyhow, if I got something wrong, I'd be happy if someone corrected me. I'd truly be a waste of time if I was rambling about something that I don't even know anything about, right? That's problably the case...

Such a new system may be troublesome for 3 reasons:

- Character alignment changes with a character's actions.

- Enchanted equipment is often used as a trophy and/or spoils of war.

- Sometimes people will use enchanted equipment as something to trade in exchange for something they want.

Character alignment may change, yes. However it is a very slow process and most characters stay in the same alignment throughout their life, I am sure. But maybe it would be possible to change the properties of an item so that they may match the changes your character goes through? The alignment restriction is something that I just thought of, maybe it's a clumsy way of doing it for various reasons. I am not an expert on the system and I trust that you understand it better than I do. My suggestion did not lay in the way of doing it but in the actually idea of restrictions on items. If there's no worthwhile way of making it possible at all then I guess we can forget it, but I'm still interested in hearing people's opinions.

As for trophies and spoils of war, that would still be possible. Only that you'd need to speak with the other player before you run off with anything, and with a DM before you can use it. Correct me if I am wrong (again) but aren't people supposed to have a DM supervising a PvP event with a deadly outcome anyway? We return to the mechanical issue which would be that changing an items properties like that would be impossible to do while IG. In that case, I suppose there's nothing to do about it. Still, I am pretty sure that the defeated player would appreciate a more controlled way of loosing his items. Especially if he was ambushed unexpectedly or griefed, which is still possible even if you are high level.

Using enchanted items for trade would obviously become a problem. Still I believe that enchanted items are so immensely valuable that it wouldn't actually be a problem as bad as you may think. For example if you have a level 18 character who for some reason needs a lot of gold for his plot. You could simply enchant something and sell it at a ridiculous price and you'd have all the money you need. Most people can't even afford to buy it from you because it's on an entirely different level than the average loot when it comes to value. That may be just me though, and if you disagree I understand that. The best thing would obviously be that the person who has enchanted the sword could put and remove restrictions himself, however that would make the mechanical part even more complicated.


As an answer to Aprog I can only say that this system would make it harder for people to exploit in one way or another. Exploiting is still exploiting and punishable in any case, however as it is now people could get away with it, even if most people get caught. Was it about a year ago that someone logged in with a premade character somehow, killed some people, took their stuff and left and it couldn't be helped? Sadly I don't remember what the incident was called and I don't know if it's possible that could happen anymore. But this could be a kind of safety measure.

I'm not making this up. Those 3 situations actually happen:

- My main character's weapon is an enchanted greataxe, which he got as a spoil of war.

- My main character's boots are enchanted steel plated boots which were traded in for information. (he didn't even take the exp hit. Complete boots for information)

- Alignment changes are more common than you think, especially in a morally oriented setting like Ravenloft.


I'm not saying your concerns are wrong. I'm just saying that in this case the cure may be worse than the disease. 

[Onkel Bob]

I'm not saying your concerns are wrong. I'm just saying that in this case the cure may be worse than the disease. 

I can see your point, but I am not suggesting a cure for a disease. Just discussing a possible, and problably not even necesseary, improvement. So that people may have a better play experience. I am not saying that you have done anything wrong or that anyone got sad in any of these cases you just explained. But I know that in similar scenarios griefing or exploiting occurs and that it could be avoided by means like this. Now aprog actually suggested that it maybe should be an option when enchanting, which is a great idea. Then the people who feel confident enough may roll on as usual while others may take a more careful approach.

[RedwizardD]

The proposed change does not seem terribly productive in terms of generating a better experience. A starting enchanter for instance could not sell his 'practice' products to many people if he elected to be exp donor, and all of his items ended up bound to his current alignment specifically.

 In pnp it is the creator of a magic item himself who is donating most of the exp to create a given item. Those with the skill to do so often create on commission for other people.

Now if at was an option to choose the alignment restriction rather than locking it to the donor, that might be more helpful. Many existing items found in the loot tables are locked by alignment in a broader sense. It seems plausible to give the option for a selectable, sweeping alignment restriction (Any lawful, Any Neutral, Any Good, ect) or no restrictions rather then to lock it to the current alignment of person who provides the exp.

[High_Priestess_of_Tinsel]

I share Bob's perception of enchanting. I see it as putting a part of your own life force/soul/being, whatever you'd like to call it, into an something to give yourself a greater affinity with it so it serves your purposes better. It's no small thing to give up a portion of yourself, a very character affecting thing to do, which is represented by the XP loss.

I think it'd be interesting if adding an alignment restriction to your equipment were an option. But if it became compulsory, then I think the cons would outweigh the pros.

I like this idea a lot. I think if it is possible, alignment restrictions as an option would be nice. Then those who wish to sell their souls for profit can continue to do so, while those who wish to have an item intimately bound to themselves can have a greater IG experience doing that, with IG consequences. Also, for those who would capture an unwilling victim and have their essence used, it would be a nice repercussion for their new soul infused item to reflect what they did to have it made. 

[Reigh]

Alignment change is completely feasible because you can make alignment specific or non-specific such as this great ax that he talks about, paladin who is good -and put his own soul into making the weapon- would be apart of him literally /putting your soul into the item/ "Use Exp to enchant weapon is most definitely useing your soul to make the weapon" So it would only be "cheesing" if his attributes and alignment would not also be in effect.
  The owners weapon would be apart of him if he did enchant it and to my reasoning he should not be allowed to give it away so one other good suggestion would be to curse the item.
  I am sure i will get a response to this that is highly disagreeing, but indeed it can be done and if said weapon was to be given away, there should be a dm interaction that would need to take place.
  Q: Will not that give DM's more hasstle?
  A: Not likely, a formal request would lighten the dm's workload to fit their needs.

[Onkel Bob]

Alignment change is completely feasible because you can make alignment specific or non-specific such as this great ax that he talks about, paladin who is good -and put his own soul into making the weapon- would be apart of him literally /putting your soul into the item/ "Use Exp to enchant weapon is most definitely useing your soul to make the weapon" So it would only be "cheesing" if his attributes and alignment would not also be in effect.
  The owners weapon would be apart of him if he did enchant it and to my reasoning he should not be allowed to give it away so one other good suggestion would be to curse the item.
  I am sure i will get a response to this that is highly disagreeing, but indeed it can be done and if said weapon was to be given away, there should be a dm interaction that would need to take place.
  Q: Will not that give DM's more hasstle?
  A: Not likely, a formal request would lighten the dm's workload to fit their needs.

Indeed, it would be very logical and could be explained very easily in character. Ways to bypass it would of course exist, I mean it is a magical world. It may start a few new plots to "curse" an enchanted item so that someone else may use it. I think it's very lame when anyone can use a weapon who someone else has put his own soul into, especially if that someone would not want you to use that weapon. If you want to sell your own soul to someone else specifically then fine, I suppose that option should still be available. But your own weapon is something very personal and very powerful. Something that you want to use yourself. If someone kills you and takes your weapon, at least have them put some effort into for example cursing it, before they can use it. It would intrigue people and force them to roleplay.

I am still not sure if this is even possible for the DMs to implement this as an option when enchanting weapons. I like how the suggestion has developed by this discussion and I'm pleased that people have shared their views. If people have any more thoughts I'd be happy to hear them.

[Budly]

I always felt this enchantment thing felt very MMORPG:y and wondered why its even on the server.

Is there a need to have it?

[Bluebomber4evr]

I always felt this enchantment thing felt very MMORPG:y and wondered why its even on the server.

Is there a need to have it?

Is there a need for your constant negativity on every damn topic?  This server isn't here to suit your likes alone. We have an enchanting system because it's an integral part of D&D, and Ravenloft is a D&D setting. While we're open to constructive criticism on how to alter/change/fix the system, but griping because it's mere existence doesn't suit your particular elitist tastes is unacceptable.

[Budly]

I always felt this enchantment thing felt very MMORPG:y and wondered why its even on the server.

Is there a need to have it?

Is there a need for your constant negativity on every damn topic?  This server isn't here to suit your likes alone. We have an enchanting system because it's an integral part of D&D, and Ravenloft is a D&D setting. While we're open to constructive criticism on how to alter/change/fix the system, but griping because it's mere existence doesn't suit your particular elitist tastes is unacceptable.

Never proclaim my opinion is end all. Why are you always so hostile when I write something? I just wondered why its needed with the big loot list we got these days. Its in DnD I do not buy since this game is not carbon copy of DnD.

[Onkel Bob]

Never proclaim my opinion is end all. Why are you always so hostile when I write something? I just wondered why its needed with the big loot list we got these days. Its in DnD I do not buy since this game is not carbon copy of DnD.

Enchanted equipment may hold much more sentimental value that the normal loot you may find in a dungeon. There's a depth to these items that I think should be more obvious. It is something that could encourage more roleplaying than it does at the moment. The fact that these items are very powerful is a vital ingredient for making them as valuable as they are. The fact that someone else may want your item, that is basically part of you, because it is so powerful creates a lot of tension. And this tension could create a lot of very interesting interraction between players.

[Bluebomber4evr]

I always felt this enchantment thing felt very MMORPG:y and wondered why its even on the server.

Is there a need to have it?

Is there a need for your constant negativity on every damn topic?  This server isn't here to suit your likes alone. We have an enchanting system because it's an integral part of D&D, and Ravenloft is a D&D setting. While we're open to constructive criticism on how to alter/change/fix the system, but griping because it's mere existence doesn't suit your particular elitist tastes is unacceptable.

Never proclaim my opinion is end all. Why are you always so hostile when I write something? I just wondered why its needed with the big loot list we got these days. Its in DnD I do not buy since this game is not carbon copy of DnD.

Because I'm tired of your constant negativity. Your post contributed nothing of value to the discussion other than the same old griping and sense of entitlement. Saying "this is lame and we don't need it" is not constructive in any way. Moreover, we don't need to justify the system's "need" to you. A lot of people requested that we make an enchantment system and we wanted to have one anyway. It's as simple as that.

If you want to provide actual constructive feedback, then great. It's always useful to hear new ideas on how we can do things better. But if you want to complain and rant then don't bother posting.

[High_Priestess_of_Tinsel]

Another cool aspect of item enhancement could be to have an item blessed. Say instead of a magical essence and an enchanting machine, you get some trophy from slaying some abominable undead or evil creature to bring it to an NPC priest. In return for your deeds and gods fearing nature (perhaps you have RP'd an interesting religious conversion, or you've been a devotee of the Morning Lord for a lengthy amount of time) your item is blessed by the priest. It would take the same toll on XP as enchanting, a tribute to the deity, perhaps, or giving up your soul to better serve a God. But it could be another nice way to enhance importance of enchanted weaponry and the RP that could be involved in getting one.

[Juice]

I always felt this enchantment thing felt very MMORPG:y and wondered why its even on the server.

Is there a need to have it?

Is there a need for your constant negativity on every damn topic?  This server isn't here to suit your likes alone. We have an enchanting system because it's an integral part of D&D, and Ravenloft is a D&D setting. While we're open to constructive criticism on how to alter/change/fix the system, but griping because it's mere existence doesn't suit your particular elitist tastes is unacceptable.

Never proclaim my opinion is end all. Why are you always so hostile when I write something? I just wondered why its needed with the big loot list we got these days. Its in DnD I do not buy since this game is not carbon copy of DnD.

Because I'm tired of your constant negativity. Your post contributed nothing of value to the discussion other than the same old griping and sense of entitlement. Saying "this is lame and we don't need it" is not constructive in any way. Moreover, we don't need to justify the system's "need" to you. A lot of people requested that we make an enchantment system and we wanted to have one anyway. It's as simple as that.

If you want to provide actual constructive feedback, then great. It's always useful to hear new ideas on how we can do things better. But if you want to complain and rant then don't bother posting.

On a more serious note Im liking the idea if the alignment restriction placed in enchanted items (including weapons, shields and armor) It is a piece of your soul and experience form a IC perspective going into the item, If a paladin enchants his stuff while he is LG then falls he can no longer use the enchanted gear, Which i think is pretty dam cool, You need to redeem yourself be who you once were to take up your sword again. Sounds like some pretty awesome RP and redemption quests to me.