Author Topic: Knock Down  (Read 26446 times)

APorg

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2013, 12:23:35 PM »
If it were up to me, I'd make timestop deactivate on a player if he gets attacked. That way it can still be useful as a defensive spell (caster using it to buy time to buff) but can't be used as an "I win" button.

That actually might be possible, I think Time Stop gets recorded at the individual character level as a "freeze" buff...
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2013, 12:52:57 PM »
Dwarf Fortress rules apply: losing is fun. I am a particularly jaded player, coming from a place with 100% permadeath and little care given to how well it's done IC or how the victim feels, so I know how hard it is to put faith in the other party. I've found that the people here are generally more lenient and willing to meet you halfway.

Now, that being said there are the occasional jerks who would rather flex their coded muscle than RP. I've found the best approach to these types is to ignore them. I killed one, once, after he started numerous confrontations and blatant attacks. The thing is, corpsing him wasn't the solution. He got back up and kept throwing himself at me with every chance (and every char) he could get. These things happen and you realize pretty quickly that RP is really the only solution.
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Tyras

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2013, 12:58:17 PM »
Sorry if you knock down is to powerful but so is all the instant death spells out there. So in the end its a game we play with rules set by the DM's and enforced by the CC. If you can not follow the server rules then leave.

Where at any point did I ever even hint at not following the rules?  My issue here is that KD spam to my character is a death sentence, but the attitude on the server is "meh suck it up".  On the other side of the coin, if I were to use save versus death spells or spells that would take away another players ability to play their character I am somehow a bad guy, or lame or whathave you when all of them save for timestop are more easily countered. That KD (coming from a character within a relative level range of the wizard) is not countered due to the way the combat system has AB making a mockery of AC with all but the most hamfisted builds and equipment loadouts.

Where in there is the message that I refuse to or have an issue playing by the server rules?  I'm talking about what I see as an imbalance both in the mechanics of the combat system and in the attitude of the community here.  Your take what's given to you or leave mentality flies in the face of a forum where conversation is supposed to be encouraged rather than attacked.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 01:00:26 PM by Tyras »

Avatar6666

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2013, 12:59:42 PM »
Sorry if you knock down is to powerful but so is all the instant death spells out there. So in the end its a game we play with rules set by the DM's and enforced by the CC. If you can not follow the server rules then leave.

Where at any point did I ever even hint at not following the rules?  My issue here is that KD spam to my character is a death sentence, but the attitude on the server is "meh suck it up".  On the other side of the coin, if I were to use save versus death spells or spells that would take away another players ability to play their character I am somehow a bad guy, or lame or whathave you when all of them save for timestop are more easily countered that KD (coming from a character within a relative level range of the wizard) is not countered due to the way the combat system has AB making a mockery of AC with all but the most hamfisted builds and equipment loadouts.

Where in there is the message that I refuse to or have an issue playing by the server rules?  I'm talking about what I see as an imbalance both in the mechanics of the combat system and in the attitude of the community here.  Your take what's given to you or leave mentality flies in the face of a forum where conversation is supposed to be encouraged rather than attacked.

I was not responding to your post, but in general.


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Tyras

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2013, 01:01:48 PM »
In general, I haven't seen any posts where people are talking about not following server rules.  So the comment remains confusing and discouraging.

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2013, 01:03:11 PM »

I believe I said its a game with rules...and it is a game...get over it or move on, I am so tired of the 15 page discussions on the forum about absolutely nothing. DM's would adjust the game if they wish, however I don't see a problem with knockdown.  My last word on this subject.


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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2013, 01:04:10 PM »
Sorry if you knock down is to powerful but so is all the instant death spells out there. So in the end its a game we play with rules set by the DM's and enforced by the CC. If you can not follow the server rules then leave.

Where at any point did I ever even hint at not following the rules?  My issue here is that KD spam to my character is a death sentence, but the attitude on the server is "meh suck it up".  On the other side of the coin, if I were to use save versus death spells or spells that would take away another players ability to play their character I am somehow a bad guy, or lame or whathave you when all of them save for timestop are more easily countered that KD (coming from a character within a relative level range of the wizard) is not countered due to the way the combat system has AB making a mockery of AC with all but the most hamfisted builds and equipment loadouts.

Where in there is the message that I refuse to or have an issue playing by the server rules?  I'm talking about what I see as an imbalance both in the mechanics of the combat system and in the attitude of the community here.  Your take what's given to you or leave mentality flies in the face of a forum where conversation is supposed to be encouraged rather than attacked.

It's a two-way street, KD spammers are viewed in the same light as anyone using any other cheap combo. The point that people are trying to get across to you, is that the majority of player conflict does not revolve around coded combat.
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OITF

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2013, 01:14:14 PM »
Dwarf Fortress rules apply: losing is fun. I am a particularly jaded player, coming from a place with 100% permadeath and little care given to how well it's done IC or how the victim feels, so I know how hard it is to put faith in the other party. I've found that the people here are generally more lenient and willing to meet you halfway.

Now, that being said there are the occasional jerks who would rather flex their coded muscle than RP. I've found the best approach to these types is to ignore them. I killed one, once, after he started numerous confrontations and blatant attacks. The thing is, corpsing him wasn't the solution. He got back up and kept throwing himself at me with every chance (and every char) he could get. These things happen and you realize pretty quickly that RP is really the only solution.

It's a shame that, unlike in Dwarf Fortress, I can't beat you by throwing your friend at your chest so hard, that he lodges into a wound and kills you both.

But by God do I love DF's combat.

Sorry, bit off-topic. Besides that, taunt and knockdown are probably the only ways melee classes stand a chance against a caster class, because one unlucky save means your death. I'm not advocating its usage every round, but a fighter will want to keep his opponent from acting by beating him to the ground. 

There's always going to be an element of 'I want to win' when it comes to PvP, and there's no changing that because as much as 'losing is fun' is a great attitude to have, it can suck.
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LordRottenCorpse

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2013, 01:20:24 PM »
Knockdown is just fine! POTM is awesome , have faith in the staff !
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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2013, 01:27:02 PM »
If you're within reach of a melee character's weapons because you fancied getting into a slanging match or whatever with one then more fool you. A wizard is supposed to have all that intelligence for a very good reason and it's not just to cast a few spells about. These kinds of threads literally always come about as a result of someone getting the short end of the stick in PvP via a method that rendered them helpless. If it's not KD it's time stop it's death attack or certain equipment or death spells or people being able to crit well over a character's HP limit or any other number of things. Attitudes are as much the fault of poor PvP experiences as clicking on buttons constantly till the red thing highlighted is dead but very little will change otherwise.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 01:28:36 PM by Badelaire »

Reaver

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2013, 03:26:14 PM »
Personally, so long as there is sufficient RP beforehand, and it makes sense IC, I see no reason people should not use anything and everything in their arsenal's to kill me.  If a mages most formidable tactic is to stop time and slam me with unsavable spells, I think it would seem a bit silly not to.  On the same token if someone wishes to spam KD on me, good for him, he's being realistic and trying to survive.  If you got in a fight in real life would you not fight to the best of your ability, and even more so if the fight was life and death? I do not care about tactics used against me in pvp.. All I care about is things breaking server rules because of the mechanical limitations of nwn; such as transition hopping. This of course is assuming players are mature and have sufficient IC reasoning for beginning pvp, and give a fair chance to solve conflict in other manners.

On a side note I still do not think it is quite comparing apples to apples using KD in comparison with Time Stop and IGMS.  There are ways to defend against knockdown, it is not this instant win button people keep referring to it as, spammed or not.  If you know you cannot defend against it, then it is likely you should do what you can not to put yourself in the position to be subjected to it, much the same as a fighter with horrible saves from lack of gear should go ticking off a mage who loves FoD.

To be clear, this post contains absolutely no hostility, simply my opinions!  :)

Ercvadasz

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2013, 06:22:25 PM »
If you're within reach of a melee character's weapons because you fancied getting into a slanging match or whatever with one then more fool you. A wizard is supposed to have all that intelligence for a very good reason and it's not just to cast a few spells about. These kinds of threads literally always come about as a result of someone getting the short end of the stick in PvP via a method that rendered them helpless. If it's not KD it's time stop it's death attack or certain equipment or death spells or people being able to crit well over a character's HP limit or any other number of things. Attitudes are as much the fault of poor PvP experiences as clicking on buttons constantly till the red thing highlighted is dead but very little will change otherwise.

Actually quite many a times these two types are one and the same.

Also Appro what you post about the PVP is nice and all that, but actually usually the way it is:if it is not banned/prohibited or it is tolerated allthough not encouraged: then there are players who will do that, and perhaps often. I am fairly sure quite a number of the players could name a few notorious gankers, no rp killers, etc, and not just the famous AMPC slayers.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 06:40:19 PM by Ercvadasz »
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Marsi

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2013, 12:44:53 AM »
If there is some mutual co-ordination and trust going on between myself and the significant other: subdual, mid-battle emotes, etc - sure, why not? It makes for the coolest thing ever. Have you ever seen two high AC, low AB characters fight? It's epic.

My favorite instances of PvP are the ones that don't end in death - the ones that are managed well enough that RP can continue directly afterward. Two sworn enemies duke it out on a lonely hill, and one of them is knocked down at [near death]. Rather than lay the final blow, the victor's player has his character collapse also, and the both of them, disabled by their wounds, begrudgingly reconcile and help each other return to the safety of home. That'd be sooo cool.
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Exordium

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2013, 01:42:52 AM »
When some of you guys feel that PvP happens unfairly, lacks any fun or is simply not interesting to you, you can in most cases just avoid it. It's true that certain, specific character concepts may be impossible to do without the PvP component, but there are plenty others which can be done. With l337 experience in competitive arena and action servers (like, 7 years ago, thankfully) and after way too much practical experiments and number crunching, I'd be tempted to say that NWN is, and will be, full of PvP tactics that, when executed correctly, will bring victory with little variance or chance for the opponent. That's how it is and it would be very hard to change - but then, with such a complex and diverse amount of build configurations, almost any game will end up with skills and builds that outshine the others.

There's nothing wrong in avoiding PvP and simply saying no to it when you feel that it'd just bring more harm than good, as long as you're ready to compromise in your RP. I've happily been doing just that for years now, mostly since NWN PvP just isn't my thing in the end. And despite having a tendency for the openly protagonist, I haven't had PvP forced on me more than, at most, thrice in six-or-so years.

Additionally, there actually should be a system in place that reduces KD spamming by quite bit. Have a goodish AC (Improved Expertise it if you suspect enemy is going to KD) and what discipline gear is available and you should stand a chance to block it, too. :)

If it were up to me, I'd make timestop deactivate on a player if he gets attacked. That way it can still be useful as a defensive spell (caster using it to buy time to buff) but can't be used as an "I win" button.

That actually might be possible, I think Time Stop gets recorded at the individual character level as a "freeze" buff...

Possible changes to Time Stop have been discussed. ;) I couldn't, though, say if anything will be implemented and if was, in what timetable.

So in the end its a game we play with rules set by the DM's and enforced by the CC.

Rules are created by the developer team and enforced by the DM team. CC can not enforce rules. A bit in the reminiscence of the tripartite system.

Addendum: A new topic should probably be made for any further discussion on the details of what is desirable for PvP mindset.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 02:29:22 AM by Exordium »

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2013, 09:03:22 AM »
I don't have any qualms about KD, yeah it was a stupid thing to put in NWN but since it is in then I think its more unfair to tell people they are cheesy for using it.
Whenever I do think about a pvp character, I just cross class, skill focus and wear the gear and by mid levels that eliminates the REALLY silly scenarios.
I think the responsibility is on the potential victim to take precautions, up to and including avoidance. That goes for all potential deaths to me really.


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ThePwush

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2013, 10:50:10 AM »
Just proves the point....

If there is an advantage, someone will use it.

If there is a 'cheese' advantage, someone will abuse it.

No matter what it is, what class skill it belongs to.
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Smitehammer

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2013, 02:18:55 PM »
It would be nice if knockdown were based off strength instead of discipline.  Since that's not the case, all classes could at least have the opportunity to invest in discipline as a class skill.  As discipline doesn't exist in pen and paper, I think it should be treated as 'lore', and offered to every class equally.
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Gilad Abrams

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2013, 03:04:45 PM »
By that logic so should spell craft since it's as close to an equivalent as exists in the game as far as protection against spells go.

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2013, 08:47:16 PM »
Sure, why not?  Then you could have a monkish order focused on killing mages, or mage-killer fighters like the Templars of Dragonage.
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swbf2lord

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2013, 09:55:31 PM »
I don't know why you'd give wizards and other classes discipline as a class skill, though. What reason would they have it, from a role-play standpoint?

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2013, 10:22:13 PM »
I don't know why you'd give wizards and other classes discipline as a class skill, though. What reason would they have it, from a role-play standpoint?

To me discipline is combat training. Any wizard that was trained to fight with his spells has a good RP reason to take it IMHO.
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swbf2lord

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2013, 12:15:04 AM »
I don't know why you'd give wizards and other classes discipline as a class skill, though. What reason would they have it, from a role-play standpoint?

To me discipline is combat training. Any wizard that was trained to fight with his spells has a good RP reason to take it IMHO.

In the way it's used in the server.. to resist things like knock down, I'd say it was melee combat training. Few wizards have that, so they wouldn't be the norm, needing discipline as a class feat. Just my opinion of course.

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2013, 12:29:23 AM »
Sure, why not?  Then you could have a monkish order focused on killing mages, or mage-killer fighters like the Templars of Dragonage.

I already do :P
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Smitehammer

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2013, 06:00:26 AM »
Any dwarf wizard would take it just to keep from falling on their ass all day.  Don't forget that there are builds for melee wizards/sorcerers, as well.  Not to mention that druids and clerics are often intended to fight in melee and lack access to discipline as a class skill.

Again, remember - in Pen and Paper, such things as knockdown are countered by strength directly, not 'discipline'.  Good luck knocking down that bear-form druid in pen and paper.  Giving access to discipline across the board is only fair.  And I would extend that courtesy to spellcraft, as well.  One does not need to cast spells to be familiar with them.  That's why Pat Robertson's so good at spotting demons!
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OITF

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Re: Knock Down
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2013, 03:48:38 PM »
Any dwarf wizard would take it just to keep from falling on their ass all day.  Don't forget that there are builds for melee wizards/sorcerers, as well.  Not to mention that druids and clerics are often intended to fight in melee and lack access to discipline as a class skill.

Again, remember - in Pen and Paper, such things as knockdown are countered by strength directly, not 'discipline'.  Good luck knocking down that bear-form druid in pen and paper.  Giving access to discipline across the board is only fair.  And I would extend that courtesy to spellcraft, as well.  One does not need to cast spells to be familiar with them.  That's why Pat Robertson's so good at spotting demons!

Ignoring the fact that fighters get sod all by way of skill points, and wizards get a metric shit ton, that sounds like a quick way to widening the power gap between melee classes and casters.
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