Knock Down

[Lucadia]

I was going off number crunching. Theres few items with dicipline unless your lv 14 + pc is wililng to get the enchanted gear for it. lv 14 is a high target for most of the player base when your likely to encounter pvp way before then. Only one skill focus. ab can get higher then the skill.

[APorg]

I really dont see anything about how my perspective effects the rules here.

There's nothing directly against the rules in this, but again, the first two paragraphs discuss an ideal of PVP that tries to encourage co-operation over competition. I find it slightly incongruous when people read this and then decide, "well, the rules don't strictly forbid me from these cheap shots, so what the heck, anything goes!"

Especially when things like Prestige Classes and HIPS, etc., are effectively controlled.

As for the strong culture that "culture" is there because someone is at an unfair advantage and the defeated think that they shouldnt have died going up against the superior opposition.

You can not ignore the fact that the DM/Dev/admin team does care about balance. There's a whole bunch of stuff that you can't get on this server -- including simply things like Greater Skill Focuses; there's also a near-complete lack of Ability-raising equipment -- again, explicitly, for reasons of balance. Spells have been altered -- for reasons of balance.

You may or may not agree that Knockdown is imbalanced -- that's your opinion. You may or may not agree that balance even matters in the end -- that's also your opinion. But automatically equating any grumblings about something being over- or underpowered as the whining of sore losers, as you are doing, is merely disrespectful and discourteous.

[Anonymoose]

KD is fine the way it is, It has its own checks and opposed rolls pre programmed into it.
We do not need to change anything.

Less focus on trying to make something that has resistances and checks easier to defend against and think about the things that dont make checks or have opposed rolls.
Every class, every skill, every feat, every choice you make for building your pc has its Advantages and Disadvantages. The mentality im seeing her is not about KD its about people using it in PVP against other players.
Which means the problem isnt the mechanics its the player not accepting that their PC loses fights from time to time.

Im sure alot of thought went into creating NWN and how everything works.

The thing is, the mechanics of this game has already been altered and whilst those changes weren't necessary they were still made and to -some- extent I understand why. Spells has been nerfed a great deal on this server to be more D&D:ish and that in turn has weakened spellcasters a great deal so whatever thought that you claim went into the creation of NWN and how everything works has already been distinguished. The constant spell scrutinizing and changing has given spellcasters the short end of the stick and non-caster classes has become stronger with it and even received buffs that even outshine a caster.

With your own argument one could say that all this effort that the POTM team put into balancing the spells was useless and a waste of time because it isn't the mechanics fault it is us players who choose to use them. Sometimes it is necessary to enforce changes because common sense is not common sense to everyone, we all come from different places and it is not common sense for everyone that locking someone in a constant loop of knockdown is wrong. I'm all for having Knockdown removed or restricted to PVE.

[LivingWasteland]

NWN and PnP are two entirely different beasts and the two will never get much closer than they are now.

PnP was not made for 'balance'. The classes were not made to be, or ever be close, to 'balanced'. Because it was not intended for PvP to be a big thing. Classes in PnP are based ENTIRELY around what they bring to a PARTY of COOPERATIVE individuals. Not who can kick who's butt around the block in the most 'balanced' way.

In PnP one PC doesn't take on an entire encounter alone, let alone solo dungeons. (At least that's not the intent. It's a party-based game). Nor, in PnP, is there upwards a dozen or more 'encounters' per dungeon.

NWN is a video game. It has to use video game mechanics. Everything moves at a much faster pace. There's a lot more monsters per dungeon. There are larger spawns of things that can completely decimate certain classes, because NWN was made with the ability to solo in mind as well. Doubt anyone at Bioware expected NWN's multiplayer to be as popular as it became, that it's still being played so avidly long after they stopped supporting it.

So with keeping an ability to hold your own against most spawns, different ways were programmed in to give classes that big weaknesses the ability to handle most situations, Knockdown being one of them.

Now then, let's take a look at PotM.

There's a lot more risk in death (Sorry, in PnP the odds that someone is going to nick your weapons and money are -extremely- low, because again...COOPERATIVE. That, and it's monitored heavily by a DM and 'most' DM's are pretty lenient with death in a PnP game.). There's a higher chance for PvP. There's corpse hiding, removing someone from play for extended periods of time and basically denying another player the right to play their PC because your PC doesn't like them. Despite the rules encouraging cooperation with PvP instead of competition, I'm sure at least 80% of the people that involve themselves in PvP care a hell of a lot more about their own PC's than they do the ones trying to kill them, and will act accordingly. (Personally, I think the 'reasons' most people PvP for is insane. Murder and violence seems to be the only action taken against anyone ever for every reason. 'You took my sweet roll! *Stabs in the face*'.)


All in all, comparing NWN to PnP is apples and oranges. Two completely different things, but they're both fruit. When I boot up my launcher, I don't see 'Dungeons and Dragons' anywhere on it. The only thing I see even hinting that it might be like D&D is the Wizards logo. NWN is not PnP. It is a video game based on PnP roots.


Knockdown can be countered in various ways. Timestop, Missle Storm, ect, cannot. Sneaks can also be countered, though that seems to be the easiest done by casters.

Conclusion? Casters caught unaware are the easiest to kill. But when one is ready and expecting a fight, they'll win. Always.

[APorg]

The differences with NWN/PotM and PnP have less to do with format and more to do with scale. They're not equivalent -- but they are most certainly comparable given that the rule set of one inspired the other.

I think your point about the design of the PnP rules comes to the wrong conclusions. NWN's rules were designed primarily with single player in mind and were thus primarily balanced with that consideration -- it's why Wizard familiars are so powerful, etc., as they were expected to be the "tank" in a party of two or three.

Conversely, PnP rules are written with the idea that the rules for classes and builds that the PCs are created from, may also in turn build the NPCs that they face (sure, for most mooks a DM'll use NPC classes, but major NPCs will usually use the PC classes). Clearly, conflict balance, and balance by party level, is a central consideration and objective of PnP rules. (How well they succeeded at that, with linear fighters and quadratic casters, is another debate.)

So rather than come to the conclusion that these two things are different beasts and never the twain should mix, I would argue that it's very clear that the PnP rules are superior to the NWN rules for an environment like PotM in almost every single way imaginable, because if there's one set of rules that was not designed with large-scale conflict or aggressive competitive play in mind, it's definitely NWN. And again -- I feel like a broken disk for keeping bringing this up, but it's a valid comparison -- just look at NWN2 and the lessons they learned in game design there if you really feel like challenging this point.

As for what it says when you boot up the game -- honestly, I only re-bought NWN in the first place so I could play on a Ravenloft DnD server. I think all the chances made here have, by and large, been great improvements on the original. I only wish we could go further.

[Juice]

knock down is not superior opposition. Its not a feat in pnp because its unbalanced . Just a feat that was added for nwn for the player to have advantage against monsters in the original game. You said it yourself. Unfair advantage. Even if you have discipline, theres a good chance you cant defend against it if somebody wants to put you down.

Blue has already stated that Trip in PnP Is basicly Knockdown here.

The differences with NWN/PotM and PnP have less to do with format and more to do with scale. They're not equivalent -- but they are most certainly comparable given that the rule set of one inspired the other.

And yet post after post You compare NWN to PnP or NWN2 To PnP.
Lets get this straight Just because KD isnt in NWN2 doesnt mean it should be altered here. NWN2 Has Heaps of different changes and maybe because of those changes the thought it best to remove KD.
PnP is another compeletly different system With its own editions that add, remove, power and nerf different elements from their previous edition.

NWN is its own system with its own set of changes and its fine the way it is.

Also you want this server to be more like PnP how about give Blue, Soren, and Axel along with the dev team, more credit. They would have tried to keep this server as close to pnp as possible hence why like Trip, Knock Down is something anyone can do. You are complaining about something that not just the developers of NWN thought very hard about  but also what this servers development team thought very hard about as well.

If you think you can do better no one is stopping you from making your own server, If you dont like how NWN does it no one is stopping you from playing NWN2 or PnP, If you think PnP is better than NWN go play PnP.

And Im goin to come right back to this statement: Its not that Games Fault, Its player Mentality.

[APorg]

NWN is its own system with its own set of changes and its fine the way it is.

Also you want this server to be more like PnP how about give Blue, Soren, and Axel along with the dev team, more credit. They would have tried to keep this server as close to pnp as possible hence why like Trip, Knock Down is something anyone can do.

You are contradicting yourself now. How can I accept your word that NWN is fine the way it is and shouldn't be changed -- when at the same time you want me to give more credit for the many changes that the Dev team have made?

You're not making any sense. But my point is simple and clear: I love the changes that the Devs have made and I wish they could go further.

[Dumas]

I don't know about you all, but I've never been knocked down spammed by anyone except npcs. If a player started to do that constantly against me in PvP, I would just stop RPing with them. It's unsporting to spam knock down, same as it's unsporting to spam disarm, or constantly use strength sapping attacks or spells, or constantly trying to turn characters to stone or what have you.

These things are how this particular game is played, and are not breaking the rules. But if they are viewed as unsporting when chaining them together constantly, well... Avoid playing with the players that do that. But, by and large, I don't think we have too many players that use the gameplay mechanics like this.

[Amon-Si]

Spam.
If you wouldn't want to eat it, don't force it on others.

[Juice]

NWN is its own system with its own set of changes and its fine the way it is.

Also you want this server to be more like PnP how about give Blue, Soren, and Axel along with the dev team, more credit. They would have tried to keep this server as close to pnp as possible hence why like Trip, Knock Down is something anyone can do.

You are contradicting yourself now. How can I accept your word that NWN is fine the way it is and shouldn't be changed -- when at the same time you want me to give more credit for the many changes that the Dev team have made?

You're not making any sense. But my point is simple and clear: I love the changes that the Devs have made and I wish they could go further.

Your not understanding what im saying is the problem. Let me break it down for you.

NWN is its own system with its own set of changes and its fine the way it is.

^ this is what we call a statement about the NWN base game its self then we have a break in paragraphs as we start a new statement on a new point.

NWN is its own system with its own set of changes and its fine the way it is.

Also you want this server to be more like PnP how about give Blue, Soren, and Axel along with the dev team, more credit. They would have tried to keep this server as close to pnp as possible hence why like Trip, Knock Down is something anyone can do.

^This statement talks about the changes already made by the above people in order to work the base game so it fits with what they would like the server to have.

Again appro your trying to say that two different things are/ should be the same as something else, Even after the changes made.

[APorg]

Why is it that when a Dev makes NWN more like PnP, you praise this; but when I suggest doing more of the same thing you say it's catering to bad player mentality? You're not arguing the point, you're arguing me.

[Juice]

Why is it that when a Dev makes NWN more like PnP, you praise this; but when I suggest doing more of the same thing you say it's catering to bad player mentality? You're not arguing the point, you're arguing me.

Because your Not understanding again.
Blue has already said the PnP Special attack called Trip is basically Knockdown on this server.
Your not trying to make it more like PnP your actually trying to make it more like NWN2 it seems.

[Delete Me]

Prettttty sure this could use a lock on it, and they key to be thrown away....

...



forrrevvverrr

[Juice]

Prettttty sure this could use a lock on it, and they key to be thrown away....

...



forrrevvverrr

Agreed Im pretty much done here.

[Anonymoose]

Why is it that when a Dev makes NWN more like PnP, you praise this; but when I suggest doing more of the same thing you say it's catering to bad player mentality? You're not arguing the point, you're arguing me.

Because your Not understanding again.
Blue has already said the PnP Special attack called Trip is basically Knockdown on this server.
Your not trying to make it more like PnP your actually trying to make it more like NWN2 it seems.

Did he say that word for word? Source please.

[Juice]

Trip is not a feat in PnP, it is just a special type of attack that any character (PC or NPC) can perform.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.
Being Tripped (Prone)

A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.
Tripping a Mounted Opponent

You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.
Tripping with a Weapon

Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

There you go. Not alot of differences between Trip and Knockdown. which is why i said Basically
Main difference is the Checks, Instead of Str Vs Dex we have Attack Vs Dis From memory.

[Avatar6666]

Exactly...so why are we arguing in the first place...Lets just play the game. If someone spams knockdown on you ...use a time stop...or some other way to stop it. It is just a game guys...

[Bluebomber4evr]

I didn't say that, but Bioware did implement the Knockdown feat and Discipline skill to approximate the PnP Trip special attack. According to the folks at Bioware, that was as close as they could get with the engine.

Like I said earlier, the script for Knockdown is hardcoded and can't be changed. Our options are limited to:

1. Remove the feat entirely
2. Remove Knockdown and try to make a replacement work-around feat that may not work reliably, if at all
3. Leave it alone and live with it as it is.

Of those, option #3 seems the most viable

With that, I'm going to lock the thread as some of you are taking things to a personal level.