Knock Down

[Tyras]

What are your thoughts on the Knock Down special attack?

Having limitied PvP experience with both melee classes and non melee classes the impression that I get is it needs to be toned down either by mechanic or by offering more ways to guard against it for those classes that are cross classed in the discipline skill by adding in gear with enough discipline on it to be comparative ratio wise to resist/save/immunity gear at a given level range with class limitations on class use so as not to break the special attack with melee classes with discipline as a class skill.  There is a great deal of equipment out there to increase the saves of a character which is a much tighter system of challenge and resist than the skill based system where certain classes have access to the skill required to resist a knockdown attack and others are hamstrung, never being able to effectively resist special attacks as any class could be with the right equipment be able to resist or save versus a spell.

With little to no gear out there to give the same degree of protection against special attacks as there is save and resist gear out there is, in my opinion, an imbalance in the game where spamming knockdowns against non melee character is far more effective than what might be used against a melee character with save/resist/immunity gear or spell buffs.

That's my take on it.  What's yours?

[Reaver]

Well, even my melee character often finds herself unable to resist such special attacks, there is gear that boosts discipline, but not quite to the point of effectiveness for pvp at least.  And using such gear often adds in the need to replace saving throw gear for it. For PvE not near as much discipline is needed generally and she can resist most of the special attacks there.  In general a good rule of thumb is if your discipline is less than 10 under your AC there's little point of bothering with it at all, because if they roll high enough to bypass your AC, then there is little chance of resisting the special attack anyway, the only real exception being when 20s are required to hit.  

All that said, I really do not see an issue with the current system. Melee classes CAN get enough discipline to resist special attacks a good bit of the time, and well, non melee classes? That's one of there weaknesses, every class has its problems, and every class has its strengths.  

Edit: I need spell check....

[Ellana Twiggy]

Well, there is gear out there that adds exponentially to your discipline, where, even a char which only gets 3 to four points for skills per level can maintain their footing quite easily in cases of say, knock down, shaking mountains, and so forth. Having some pvp experience and knowing the limitations of a level 20 char, plus the gear which I have seen, I don't think that one would have any issues making a char, with or with out gear that can stay on their feet if that is the goal of said char. Balance is quite simple, everything has a weakness.
For most melee classes its usually will or reflex, for most ranged its usually discipline, fortitude. Etc and so on. If you are a range char and you fall on your rump and you don't want to then find the gear or spend the xp to get the gear that is enchanted and boost your discipline or spend the skill points. Will one thing possibly be sacrificed for that goal of staying on your feet, probably.  As a melee char you really shouldn't have any issue putting points into disc, I would imagine such would rather be something most would do as they would want to use their greatest assets of knocking down their enemy and thrashing them silly while on the ground before they can get a spell off or any other thing which might impair ones life.
If you're talking about bolt attacks, discipline seems to have no bearing on them, its whether they hit or they don't, in which case you might want to be worried more about ac or using something as simple as a freedom spell or potion. Everyone can get/make potions, so its more about the planning when it comes to that.
I think asking for an immunity to discipline is rather like saying a vampire, a fleshy undead, cannot be turned into a statue with flesh to stone. It makes no real sense on a level 20 server.
Of course, the real trick might be trying to figure out what the weakness is of the char you are trying to pvp, one of my chars has quite a few despite looking very strong in most area's. From piercing to a low to hit, it makes the char quite vulnerable in combat with out the magic of her friends. Travel with people who balance you out, figure out what you want your strength's and weakness's to be and then find your own balance some how.

[APorg]

KD spam is cheesy and unfair, but so is a lot of crap in NWN's design, unfortunately. To me it's a sign that the gloves have come off in a PVP and anything goes.

[APorg]

I think asking for an immunity to discipline is rather like saying a vampire, a fleshy undead, cannot be turned into a statue with flesh to stone. It makes no real sense on a level 20 server.

Funny fact: I have seen a piece of DM gear that gave immunity to knockdown (a heavy martial weapon, not particularly useful to the kind of characters who don't have Discipline). And the vampire stone flesh thing is a settled debate, bringing it up doesn't help anything.

[Tyras]

Well, there is gear out there that adds exponentially to your discipline, where, even a char which only gets 3 to four points for skills per level can maintain their footing quite easily in cases of say, knock down, shaking mountains, and so forth. Having some pvp experience and knowing the limitations of a level 20 char, plus the gear which I have seen, I don't think that one would have any issues making a char, with or with out gear that can stay on their feet if that is the goal of said char. Balance is quite simple, everything has a weakness.
For most melee classes its usually will or reflex, for most ranged its usually discipline, fortitude. Etc and so on. If you are a range char and you fall on your rump and you don't want to then find the gear or spend the xp to get the gear that is enchanted and boost your discipline or spend the skill points. Will one thing possibly be sacrificed for that goal of staying on your feet, probably.  As a melee char you really shouldn't have any issue putting points into disc, I would imagine such would rather be something most would do as they would want to use their greatest assets of knocking down their enemy and thrashing them silly while on the ground before they can get a spell off or any other thing which might impair ones life.
If you're talking about bolt attacks, discipline seems to have no bearing on them, its whether they hit or they don't, in which case you might want to be worried more about ac or using something as simple as a freedom spell or potion. Everyone can get/make potions, so its more about the planning when it comes to that.
I think asking for an immunity to discipline is rather like saying a vampire, a fleshy undead, cannot be turned into a statue with flesh to stone. It makes no real sense on a level 20 server.
Of course, the real trick might be trying to figure out what the weakness is of the char you are trying to pvp, one of my chars has quite a few despite looking very strong in most area's. From piercing to a low to hit, it makes the char quite vulnerable in combat with out the magic of her friends. Travel with people who balance you out, figure out what you want your strength's and weakness's to be and then find your own balance some how.

I don't think anyone is asking for immunity to discipline.  I'm certainly not.  I am saying that in a PvP scenario where both parties are on equal footing, a duel between two characters of the same levels as an example, a melee character is much better suited to deal with a non melee character by use of the knockdown special attack than a non melee character.  Yes there are those spells that can end things pretty quickly like Flesh to Stone or Finger of Death, or the power word spells.  The problem with that is, there are many more ways a character can guard against them with save/resist/ or immunity gear or consumables than a non melee character can guard against knockdown.  That and try using those spells in combat, the community will tear you up because of the taboo associated with those spells.  That stigma does not seem to be attached to knockdown spam with the exception of a few people.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Knockdown's not that big a deal. If you're melee, that's life. If you're a caster, there are numerous ways to defend yourself and if you're a flanker, you shouldn't have been caught!

[Badelaire]

That's like saying it's not fair when someone uses finger of death, evards, acid sheathe and starts punching you unarmed to provoke attacks of opportunity, implodes you, power words, missle storms, energy bursts, blinds you with sunburst or word of faith, sneak attacks, crippling strikes or any other number of advantages different classes have over others.

[Avatar6666]

That's like saying it's not fair when someone uses finger of death, evards, acid sheathe and starts punching you unarmed to provoke attacks of opportunity, implodes you, power words, missle storms, energy bursts, blinds you with sunburst or word of faith, sneak attacks, crippling strikes or any other number of advantages different classes have over others.

+1

[greeneggs]

I play a cleric but her discipline is pretty good and she does have the knock down feat.  It helps alot in combat especially when she is one on one, player versus environment.  However when she is fighting people...which only happened a few nights ago on fight night it was very effective.  But I agree, it should not be constantly  overused.  But I also think that if your character has a skill and the level, they should use it.  But differentiating between skills could be better.  Such as using improved expertise or parry mode.

[Tyras]

Fun fact:  Protection from Alignment, a second level spell on a commonly found consumable negates mind affecting spells of all levels including power words for the given alignment used against.

Maybe we can get some item that makes one's boots grip the ground better. Who knows.  What I do know is all the spells in the game don't matter if you're knocked down the entire time.  Unless there is some cast while on your butt feat that I am unaware of.  That attack nullifies a character's ability to be played, and there are so few ways for a non melee character to guard against it when compared to what is available to characters to ward against a wide variety of spells.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Fun fact:  Protection from Alignment, a second level spell on a commonly found consumable negates mind affecting spells of all levels including power words for the given alignment used against.

Maybe we can get some item that makes one's boots grip the ground better. Who knows.  What I do know is all the spells in the game don't matter if you're knocked down the entire time.  Unless there is some cast while on your butt feat that I am unaware of.  That attack nullifies a character's ability to be played, and there are so few ways for a non melee character to guards against it when compared to what is available to characters to ward against a wide variety of spells.

I think you're expecting too much. Knockdown is what it is. Discipline items won't really change the outcome for anything that doesn't have it as a class skill and an immunity item would be an atrocity. In the end, an unprepared mage will die. A fighter trying to kd spam a prepared mage is going to have a bad time.

[APorg]

That's like saying it's not fair when someone uses finger of death, evards, acid sheathe and starts punching you unarmed to provoke attacks of opportunity, implodes you, power words, missle storms, energy bursts, blinds you with sunburst or word of faith, sneak attacks, crippling strikes or any other number of advantages different classes have over others.

Knock Down isn't in base DnD as implemented in NWN; and its equivalents of Trip, Bull Rush, etc., are far less effective than Knock Down is in NWN.

I mean, there's a reason it got nerfed in NWN2.

It's like using Time Stop and missile-spamming someone to death. Yes, it's technically legitimate in the NWN engine. It's still lame for abusing an auto-win button.

[Snowflame]

Fun fact:  Protection from Alignment, a second level spell on a commonly found consumable negates mind affecting spells of all levels including power words for the given alignment used against.

Maybe we can get some item that makes one's boots grip the ground better. Who knows.  What I do know is all the spells in the game don't matter if you're knocked down the entire time.  Unless there is some cast while on your butt feat that I am unaware of.  That attack nullifies a character's ability to be played, and there are so few ways for a non melee character to guards against it when compared to what is available to characters to ward against a wide variety of spells.

I think you're expecting too much. Knockdown is what it is. Discipline items won't really change the outcome for anything that doesn't have it as a class skill and an immunity item would be an atrocity. In the end, an unprepared mage will die. A fighter trying to kd spam a prepared mage is going to have a bad time.

Agreed, there is also other defenses against KD including: AB debuffing spells/Abilities, AC increasing spells & Abilities, and Discipline can actually help some if you do have some ranks in it. not to mention discipline items aren't too hard to get ahold of enchanted boots can net you about +9 DIscipline with +1 AC and really nice saves and no Arcane Spell Failure (When there probably should be considering all other crafted armored items get it including helmets.). So I personally don't think it's all that bad in my oppinion when you build against it. and normal plated also grants discipline.

[swbf2lord]

That's like saying it's not fair when someone uses finger of death, evards, acid sheathe and starts punching you unarmed to provoke attacks of opportunity, implodes you, power words, missle storms, energy bursts, blinds you with sunburst or word of faith, sneak attacks, crippling strikes or any other number of advantages different classes have over others.

+2

[OITF]

Pretty much equivalent to using Hold Person/Monster straight out of invis.

[Ercvadasz]

I think asking for an immunity to discipline is rather like saying a vampire, a fleshy undead, cannot be turned into a statue with flesh to stone. It makes no real sense on a level 20 server.

And the vampire stone flesh thing is a settled debate, bringing it up doesn't help anything.

He was not around for a while it is why he has no knowledge of it.

About KD spam, actually even if someone spams it they still get -5 to the ab. Which means you allready sacrifice something for its usefullness, whereas a mage just says ZAP, and that is that for you.

[RedwizardD]

Werewolves and other monsters seem to absolutely adore knockdown.

[APorg]

About KD spam, actually even if someone spams it they still get -5 to the ab. Which means you allready sacrifice something for its usefullness, whereas a mage just says ZAP, and that is that for you.

You mean the -4 that can be overcome by purchasing a feat?

Anyway, my point isn't that KD should be changed. My point is that KD spam is one of the many tactics that is cheap and forces an escalation of conflict; it's a tactic that aims to lockdown PVP, and therefore invites people to resort to other dirty tricks to counter it.

This is lame. This is contrary to the ethos of PVP this server tries to inspire, which is to steer towards PVP conflict that drives story rather than the kind that tries to lockdown conflict to "win".

There is nothing to stop you going around KD spamming in PVP, just like there's nothing stopping me memorising all Time Stops and Missile Storms on my high level wizard. But both are steps down the slippery slope that is the "win" mentality.

This doesn't mean that using KD, or Missile Storm, or Time Stop, is automatically unfair: there's a difference between the limited use of strong abilities to establish an advantage, and using them to lock down a fight.

[Bad_Bud]

About KD spam, actually even if someone spams it they still get -5 to the ab. Which means you allready sacrifice something for its usefullness, whereas a mage just says ZAP, and that is that for you.

You mean the -4 that can be overcome by purchasing a feat?

Anyway, my point isn't that KD should be changed. My point is that KD spam is one of the many tactics that is cheap and forces an escalation of conflict; it's a tactic that aims to lockdown PVP, and therefore invites people to resort to other dirty tricks to counter it.

This is lame. This is contrary to the ethos of PVP this server tries to inspire, which is to steer towards PVP conflict that drives story rather than the kind that tries to lockdown conflict to "win".

There is nothing to stop you going around KD spamming in PVP, just like there's nothing stopping me memorising all Time Stops and Missile Storms on my high level wizard. But both are steps down the slippery slope that is the "win" mentality.

This doesn't mean that using KD, or Missile Storm, or Time Stop, is automatically unfair: there's a difference between the limited use of strong abilities to establish an advantage, and using them to lock down a fight.

Improved Knockdown modifies the DC on the discipline check, but the attempt still costs -4 on the attack roll.

There is also nothing to stop someone from casting Greater Sanctuary (actually just one thing, but no one uses it).

As far as PfE goes, if you're dealing with a melee type character, chances are they don't have many buffs, and you should be saving some spell breaches.

[Reaver]

That's like saying it's not fair when someone uses finger of death, evards, acid sheathe and starts punching you unarmed to provoke attacks of opportunity, implodes you, power words, missle storms, energy bursts, blinds you with sunburst or word of faith, sneak attacks, crippling strikes or any other number of advantages different classes have over others.

Far more brief than my replay, but more to the point I was trying to make.. everyone has some form of attack that can be seen as cheesy, but everyone has them.

[Reaver]

About KD spam, actually even if someone spams it they still get -5 to the ab. Which means you allready sacrifice something for its usefullness, whereas a mage just says ZAP, and that is that for you.

You mean the -4 that can be overcome by purchasing a feat?

Anyway, my point isn't that KD should be changed. My point is that KD spam is one of the many tactics that is cheap and forces an escalation of conflict; it's a tactic that aims to lockdown PVP, and therefore invites people to resort to other dirty tricks to counter it.

This is lame. This is contrary to the ethos of PVP this server tries to inspire, which is to steer towards PVP conflict that drives story rather than the kind that tries to lockdown conflict to "win".

There is nothing to stop you going around KD spamming in PVP, just like there's nothing stopping me memorising all Time Stops and Missile Storms on my high level wizard. But both are steps down the slippery slope that is the "win" mentality.

This doesn't mean that using KD, or Missile Storm, or Time Stop, is automatically unfair: there's a difference between the limited use of strong abilities to establish an advantage, and using them to lock down a fight.

This I cannot fully agree with, as there are counters to KD, most notably discipline. Whereas time stop and missle storms have NO counter on this server...  Otherwise, yes it is a cheesy tactic to use KD over and over and over... But I will garantee if I go to fight a mage I will use KD as its one of the things that evens the playing field.

[Badelaire]

Not to put too fine a point there aprog but if two sides have gotten to the point where violence and death must ensue then the point of combat is to win by either escaping, maiming, repelling or killing your opponent by any means necessary.

[Juice]

That's like saying it's not fair when someone uses finger of death, evards, acid sheathe and starts punching you unarmed to provoke attacks of opportunity, implodes you, power words, missle storms, energy bursts, blinds you with sunburst or word of faith, sneak attacks, crippling strikes or any other number of advantages different classes have over others.

Knock Down isn't in base DnD as implemented in NWN; and its equivalents of Trip, Bull Rush, etc., are far less effective than Knock Down is in NWN.

I mean, there's a reason it got nerfed in NWN2.

It's like using Time Stop and missile-spamming someone to death. Yes, it's technically legitimate in the NWN engine. It's still lame for abusing an auto-win button.

 How bout no. You can resist a knockdown and if you have enough points in dis then it wont effect you, Time stops and missile spaming...Pretty sure you cant save against a time stop and Magic missile is 0% Chance to miss. So No.

Fact is Knock down is fine the way it is. It runs off your attack roll and even gives a minus to your attack when using it, also you can boost in a skill that stops it form working.
If your getting knocked down too much on a spell caster tuff, spell flinger's arent physical Nor should they be and if you have a trained warrior that all he knows is how to swing a sword against a magic caster who spends more time harnessing their power over how to use a weapon then of course the casters is going to end up on his back.

And if your fighter cant resist a knockdown then i guess the guy your fighting is stronger than you or you havent trained enough to resist it. and when a weak fight comes against a strong fighter, the weaker will end up along side the spell caster, on their back looking up at the stars.

[Anonymoose]

Knockdown (KD) uses Attack Bonus (AB) and all classes get AB progression automatically as they level without any skills invested in it. Discipline on the other hand doesn't progress automatically as you level, not only do you have to invest skill points in it you have to be the right class to even skill it out.

As for spell boosts, to my knowledge there are no spells that directly boosts discipline but there are indirect means. Since Discipline uses Strength as it's base stat (as opposed to AB that uses both Strength -and- Dexterity in terms of melee) the very same buffs that increases Discipline also increases AB so they essentially cancel each other out and on top of that there's far more spells that boosts AB than there is spells that boost discipline.

Spells that drain STR? Pop a potion.
Spells that lower AB? Pop a potion or you simply don't give a fudge because that nice +5 varnish of yours alone probably negated that -10 AB Bigby by 50%.


What about items? This is where discipline has a chance to shine but the kindof funny thing here is that you have to sacrifice all the other goodies you could gain from items in order to equip discipline items whereas AB boost spells doesn't require you to equip anything, because spells function no matter what item you wield so essentially you have more freedom with AB boosting spells.
I wanna have good detect/stealth gear! Nope too bad, you're a disciplinedude.
I wanna have good saves on my gear! Nope too bad, you're a disciplinerdude.
I wanna be a superspecial carebear flower dancer! Nope too bad, this is Ravenloft get the fudge out of here you tool.

I wont even take enchanted gear into this calculation, they make me sick! And if you have to rely on such high-end im-the-best-in-the-universe gear to make it towards a single feat then you smoke sausage or you're smoked sausage.