Author Topic: Clerical Connections  (Read 6706 times)

Bishop Cornelius

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Clerical Connections
« on: August 16, 2013, 11:25:54 PM »
My new pet peeve is how so many Outlander clerics run around with strong faith, and apparently no hint of feeling a distant connection to their deity.  They act like this might as well be Forgotten Realms, with all the deities taking an active role, when that's simply not the case.

While I realize for most this is a source of misinformation (as they haven't read the whole of Ravenloft canon), it can be corrected...

Thoughts?


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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2013, 11:46:33 PM »
I think you have a bit of a misconception. Sure their connection is distant and a new experience but they won't suddenly question everything they know suddenly. Clerics should have strong faith, its their very identity and everything they dedicate their self to.

In all my time playing potm this is the first time I have ever seen anyone complaining about clerics being roleplayed as faithful, its usually about how they are NOT displaying their faith as much as people think they should be.


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dutchy

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2013, 12:55:40 AM »
the weak connection can be seen as lvl portret a lvl 2 has a weak connection a lvl 20 a strong connection


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MadJKevlar

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 01:36:58 AM »
The way i see it is and the server terms pretty much literally state this... a cleric at first feels weak connection and gains strength as they level. 

Ability to cast prayers like magic in ravenloft comes from a individuals belief and strength of will and not necessarily directly from there gods... some one described it once as that you could pray to coins or grains of sand, if your strength of will was strong enough and you could make others believe then a prayer will manifest as a buff.

The only thing this idea puts a stop to and the thing i really like it for, is people no longer.. well for the most part no longer stand there whispering inside there hoods then turning to you and saying "god says this!" or "i have spoken to the supreme ruler and he/she says this." and the only way that is happening is if a DM literally speaks to you as a god.  It also settles the argument of direct divine intervention to though many gods are well known for helping there most faithful avoid, cheat, or overcome death and in the realm of dread I guess that wont help things be very dreadful.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 01:44:33 AM by MadJKevlar »

Badelaire

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 07:50:25 AM »
It's oft been quoted before:

Quote
The Unspoken Pact
When a cleric enters Ravenloft from another world, she immediately feels a hollowness slip into her heart, a void that the strength and compassion of her deity once filled. Although clerics continue to receive the blessings of their divine patrons, they no longer feel their gods at their side. This absence often causes clerics new to the Land of Mists to suffer crises of faith or pass through periods of deep depression.

For natives of the Land of Mists, this remoteness is perfectly normal; they expect the gods to be distant and inscrutable as a matter of common sense. Some clerics in Ravenloft claim to be the direct vessel of their respective deities, but these folk are widely regarded as madmen and false messiahs.

Without the gods' watchful eyes to monitor all that is said and done in their name, many imported religions experience a "theological shift." As godly legends are passed from one mortal to another, religious teachings often adapt to their new homelands, or even evolve to suit the specific needs of powerful clerics. Tales even exist of clerics who betrayed the core beliefs of their faith yet kept their divine powers. As an example, rumors insist that the grand religion of the Shadowlands, dedicated to the neutral good deity Belenus, is actually steeped in evil practices.

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2013, 01:18:04 PM »
Nadia feels that emptiness, but she still makes the Covenant and the Binding every evening and morning, in hopes that Oghma will come closer to her.  Even though, thanks to a series of books, she knows that will never happen. 
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ThePwush

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2013, 02:15:44 PM »
It's called 'faith' for a reason...
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LadyDragn

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2013, 02:23:14 PM »
It's called 'faith' for a reason...

Gotta agree on this one.

My Priestess of Lurue feels the loss of connection, but she is very adamant about following her tenets so letting herself fall into depression isn't an option. She pushes herself to meet this specific part of her Ladys dogma:

Code: [Select]
Evil melts quickest in the face of a rapier wit and unshackled joy. Search for the unicorn and in the pursuit find happiness
So yes, she feels the loss, but she has the deepest of faiths that even though she can't hear or feel her goddess, she knows in her heart that she is watching and she won't shirk her duties or oaths.

monsinyana

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2013, 02:15:24 AM »
It's called 'faith' for a reason...

Gotta agree on this one.

My Priestess of Lurue feels the loss of connection, but she is very adamant about following her tenets so letting herself fall into depression isn't an option. She pushes herself to meet this specific part of her Ladys dogma:

Code: [Select]
Evil melts quickest in the face of a rapier wit and unshackled joy. Search for the unicorn and in the pursuit find happiness
So yes, she feels the loss, but she has the deepest of faiths that even though she can't hear or feel her goddess, she knows in her heart that she is watching and she won't shirk her duties or oaths.

I also agree. Don't forget most are not aware that they are getting their powers from 'elsewhere' so although their Gods have gone silent 'They' are still answering their prayers.

Now if they could no longer perform miracles, then you would get true crisis of faith.


You just have to look at our own world for inspiration


But then again, some of us see God speaks all the time, its People that have forgotten how to listen.
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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2013, 02:22:37 AM »
This is an interesting theme, I was pondering about all this recently as I had thought about it also in the past. At any rate, I'd really like to have all these discussions IC. Why don't you help me in this? :)

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 02:55:29 AM »
I also agree. Don't forget most are not aware that they are getting their powers from 'elsewhere' so although their Gods have gone silent
The vast overwhelming majority are still getting their powers from the same source they always have, their god from their plane..


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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2013, 11:22:09 AM »
I also agree. Don't forget most are not aware that they are getting their powers from 'elsewhere' so although their Gods have gone silent
The vast overwhelming majority are still getting their powers from the same source they always have, their god from their plane..

Correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn't Ravenloft canon state priests receive their spells from some 'unknown' source from Ravenloft, since no god or goddess may enter, though priests may still believe it is their gods granting them said spells?
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LadyDragn

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2013, 11:41:51 AM »
I thought I read somewhere from Blue, that the gods can still grant their blessings to their cleric, but cannot speak to or intervene on the clerics behalf and the unknown steps in when they fail their oaths or something to continue the facade that they are being blessed by their gods. I could be mistaken though

swbf2lord

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2013, 01:03:31 PM »
I was under the impression the powers were being given with the dark powers interacting as an intermediary? But, as others have said earlier, I often find that clerics have weaker faith that what would be expected, likely due to what you're saying OP. I doubt everyone will suddenly have a "crisis of faith" upon entering Ravenloft, but they will definitely feel somewhat different. Given that the powers are still granted, they likely would assume that it's just them, and their particular diety is still answering them, as, from their plane, there was never any doubt as to the existence of their deity, as the powers granted them were clear evidence.

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2013, 02:40:45 PM »
Clerics and other divine classes still receive their abilities from the deities they worshiped in their homeworld. It's only when a divine character betrays the teachings of a deity in a way that would cause their deity to withdraw their support, and therefore the abilities of the character, that the Dark Powers would consider stepping in and taking over. But even then they only do this when it might encourage further falls from grace and toward evil.

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2013, 02:47:21 PM »
I also agree. Don't forget most are not aware that they are getting their powers from 'elsewhere' so although their Gods have gone silent
The vast overwhelming majority are still getting their powers from the same source they always have, their god from their plane..

Correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn't Ravenloft canon state priests receive their spells from some 'unknown' source from Ravenloft, since no god or goddess may enter, though priests may still believe it is their gods granting them said spells?

No. Your cleric still receives the magic from his patron. The patron still knows 'whats up' as well. But they CANNOT intervene, send visions, etc. when the follower is... being untrue. If you are aware of the Bible, the 'Book of Job' is essentially what clerics go through. The Dark Powers are basically watching if Clerics will remain faithful without God holding their hand. This goes for both native (and likley not real, or 100% heretical versions) and "foreign" faiths. The only time to the DP's come in the picture is when the cleric has 'fallen' they have corrupted their faith, in a way, where they do not feel they have violated their oaths or tenants (which makes them lose their spells, need to atone). This comes into play with very weak gods (demi-powers and below), dead gods, and a God does know when you have broken your vows, but as said, they can't come in to warn/punish you. It is up to your faith alone.

tl;dr FAITH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN RAVENLOFT, THE TEST OF THE FAITHFUL IS BELIEF DESPITE NOT HAVING DIRECT GUIDANCE OR PROOF, AKA 'PURE FAITH', CLERICS WHO STRAY FROM THIS EITHER FALL TO THEIR OWN DELUSION AND ARE SUPPLANTED BY THE DARK POWERS, OR GIVE UP/CRISIS OF FAITH/DIE/WHATEVER

also: YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT YOUR GOD KNOWS WHAT YOU ARE DOING, THAT IS THE POINT OF THE UNSPOKEN PACT, SEE BOOK OF JOB

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2013, 03:46:38 PM »
Only certain clerics have the DPs 'take over' thier spell granting from the get go, Such as Templar of the Sorcerer-Kings from Darksun, and other such "semi"-deities.
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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2013, 04:47:27 PM »
Yep, thats what I said. Quasi-powers, demi-powers. Dark Sun is included in dat.

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2013, 04:20:07 PM »
Geiger is correct. This is also the reason alignment-detecting magic doesn't work in the demiplane. The Dark Powers are interested in the moral judgments of people without their deities (or magic) spelling it out for them.

The Dark Powers can step in and replace the original deity, but they don't always do so, and it isn't an automatic thing. Situations where this has occurred are:

:arrow: The worship of Bane in Hazlan and Nova Vaasa. Clerics of Bane in these domains continued to receive their spells after Bane was killed on Toril during the Time of Troubles.

:arrow: The darklord of Nidala, a fallen paladin who still believes she is doing her god's will. Actually, it would be more accurate to say that she truly knows she has fallen but is deluding herself, and the fact that she still receives her spells aids in that delusion.

:arrow:  The fake deities such as the Wolf God and Zhakata. These are completely made up but clerics of these "deities" receive their spells.

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Re: Clerical Connections
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 11:53:35 PM »
Eugene is a different case - he was not a priest before coming through the mists.
He was rescued by mielikki through one of her clerics and was freed from he underdark and the drow
as soon as he broke through to the surface he was pulled through the mists

He might be adamant that he feels mielikkis presense - but you cant miss what you never had
Gene follows mielikki only because he was saved from the underdark.

Now he does often say the land is sick, but thats because it is
with more undead and weres than you can shake a stick at