Stacking Clairaudience/Clairvoyance

[Metal_ash]

Here's a thought that precedes any gear talk :

How about creating flawed characters with actual weaknesses & limitations ?  

Flawed and with actually weaknesses and limitations... sure i am all for that.

Should maybe say... I am all in for RP flaws, but is sure want to RP my powers to, them two is equal, but if i only can RP my flaw and my power also turn in to a flaw, maybe not as fun in the long run 

[Heretic]

Good players can inspire others by making such characters, though, what I tend to see out of most of you veteran players (albeit, most of you are nubis by my standards  ), is badasses with insane hide & spot, yes, even those of you posting here complaining there's imbalance.

How about making flawed characters, like, Petre Chomski (ahaha, yes, its my old old pc   ), a peg legged guard, alcoholic that was flawed, couldn't chase bad guys because he couldn't run, couldn't see a thing because he was always drunk, couldn't do much because of fear of getting his made up family killed...).

Start making flawed chars & inspire others, maybe the win mentality will change.

[Dread]

Maybe make those silly +10 MS moccasins more likely to drop? Them and those daggers with +4 hide each. So far I've only heard of the beautiful people being able to acquire these goods.

[Metal_ash]

*removed by my self and leaves this endless blah talk... for now*

[Kendaric]

Maybe make those silly +10 MS moccasins more likely to drop? Them and those daggers with +4 hide each. So far I've only heard of the beautiful people being able to acquire these goods.

To be honest, I'd rather see the boni on items reduced in general than seeing more powerful stuff. A skill bonus on any given item shouldn't exceed +3 in my opinion, so that skills and feats are still more important than gear.

[eyeofpestilence]

Good players can inspire others by making such characters, though, what I tend to see out of most of you veteran players (albeit, most of you are nubis by my standards  ), is badasses with insane hide & spot, yes, even those of you posting here complaining there's imbalance.

How about making flawed characters, like, Petre Chomski (ahaha, yes, its my old old pc  ), a peg legged guard, alcoholic that was flawed, couldn't chase bad guys because he couldn't run, couldn't see a thing because he was always drunk, couldn't do much because of fear of getting his made up family killed...).

Start making flawed chars & inspire others, maybe the win mentality will change.

I do play a flawed Char. He's delusional. Thinking he's good at sneaking. 

[Ehver]

Here's a thought that precedes any gear talk :

How about creating flawed characters with actual weaknesses & limitations ? 

That's insulting. I'm not sure who you've been hanging around, but everyone I've had the pleasure to RP with have had characters with very clear weaknesses and limitations that play big rolls in their development. Making broad statements that we're all whiney god-moders is ridiculous.

The point is, when you devote skill points and feats to stealthing, you should be able to actually stealth. That anyone who buys a few cheap and readily available pieces of gear can catch you without any difficulty is just sad, and greatly detracts from the integrity of stealth based characters.

But balance is a common problem on all servers, and a war that is constantly waging on both sides of the line. : )

[Legion XXI]

Look - personal thoughts about stealth, sneaks, and everything else aside for two seconds...


I think it's unfair that you can stack a +10 and a +20 spell.  regardless of what skill it is, I think it's unbalanced to be able to buff 30 points in it by means so cheap that a lvl 2 can afford to do it with the gold he gets on character creation.

That's all I'm saying.  Why can you stack those two spells?  It's not about winning or losing, sneaks or detects....  it's about getting +30 in a skill by stacking spells together, when you are not allowed to do that with similar spells in Spot and Hide categories.  Why is Listen special?  Why is Listen the exception to the rule?

[The time is now 4 AM]

I think it's unfair that you can stack a +10 and a +20 spell.  regardless of what skill it is, I think it's unbalanced to be able to buff 30 points in it by means so cheap that a lvl 2 can afford to do it with the gold he gets on character creation.

I have agree with this. None of the other stuff matters all that much to me.

[Heretic]

I do play a flawed Char. He's delusional. Thinking he's good at sneaking. 

See, now that's the spirit... 

[Geiger]

Heretic,

Can I make a character who is flawed by being unable to die physically, but, is a stand-up comedian, tortured by the Dark Powers to die on stage eternally?

[Heretic]

Heretic,

Can I make a character who is flawed by being unable to die physically

That's against the Queso rules.

Sorry!

[Geiger]

Okay, will you roll up a werefox with me?

[BarleyBeer]

Okay, will you roll up a werefox with me?

7/10 would roll werefoxes with Geiger

Spoiler: show

3/10 are butthurt

[Crimson Shuriken]

An ambitious sneaky spy who try as he might, can not ever seem to get it right is an interesting flawed character idea.
Sometimes you got to make lemonade yo.

[herkles]

So basically making a stealthy character is just a concept that can not work here?

[BarleyBeer]

I've played several stealthers on the server. To my knowledge, I've been spotted a grand total of ~3 times when not fully buffed (cats grace, camo, owtl + invis).

Most people don't have the time, gold, UMD, or paranoia to cast amplify and c/c together and keep it on constantly. For most people it lasts under a minute. You're worried someone's going to cast it and you'll get spotted? Quickly walk away.

There is a distinct lack of stealth gear, yes, but there's also a distinct lack of all sorts of different gear on the server. Make friends, network, get good stealth gear, get gold and scrolls, boost your UMD and you're golden.

So no, we don't need anything unstackable or nerfed.

Spoiler: show

Also, I would like to point out that the best way to get information IC is to befriend people and start a network instead of skulking around.

[Legion XXI]

So basically making a stealthy character is just a concept that can not work here?

Oh it can, and has worked many times in the past.  Some people still do it.  The thing is, with gear so rare now, you need to get stealth items grandfathered down to your PC from older PCs, usually as part of OOC friendships with vague IC reasons.  I'm not knocking it, I'm just saying that's the most common way new characters get things like "Shadowed Armor" or "Hector's Treads" these days.  I'm sure they still drop somewhere, but it's VERY rare.  Even more ridiculous compared to the frequency with which gold jackal rings, helm of the bat, or other detect gear drops.  

The trick with playing sneaks now days is not to beat the detectors.  It's to just use it for the sole purpose of ninjalooting, or target people who take 0 spot/listen, refuse to get gear for either, and don't use any magic for either.   A very small crowd, as it stands.



As for what Barley says - Yes, most people don't have good duration on those spells.  But it does not take good duration when you are getting a +30 and you can just wait until you get to your destination to cast it.  That's what people do.   They get to where they are going, THEN cast it before whatever meeting/RP they do.  

So in short, don't play a sneak to spy.  Play a sneak to ninjaloot or gank people from stealth while they are in transit to their preferred RP spot.

[BarleyBeer]

Yes, most people don't have good duration on those spells.  But it does not take good duration when you are getting a +30 and you can just wait until you get to your destination to cast it.  That's what people do.   They get to where they are going, THEN cast it before whatever meeting/RP they do.

You're worried someone's going to cast it and you'll get spotted? Quickly walk away.

Outsmart your opponents and act quickly.

[Head Trauma]

My sneak, who just so happens to be a spy, has a hide in the lower 60s and a move silently in the mid 60s. So it can be done, it's just hard to do it.

[Crimson Shuriken]

So basically making a stealthy character is just a concept that can not work here?

It can work, just not against anyone who does not want to be spied upon.


Anyway, by my own count.  If you have the best available gear for move silently then your total from items is +30.  
That's insanity and should be enough, I have never taken issue with the gear available and would not resolve any imbalance there.

+30 MS from items (belt,armor,boots,bow,ringx2,cloak)
30 (items) + 5 (feats) + 2 (background) + dexterity modifier + 3 + class level = sneaks unbuffed move silently.  

I think a good reasonable estimate is ... a character at level 12 with a 18 dexterity and the amazing fortune to get all the best stuff.
56 is the value.   If using buffs you can reach ~62.
Its not hopeless, that will work for killing others,  however it will not work nearly as often for spying.  In my experience every group worth dropping an eaves on will have their own sleuth dropping down claireaudiant amplifications before anyone says anything of value. Stealth is much more valuable for assassinations than for spying.

Listen items of best combination gives +20, more likely +18 for most listen geared folks ten less than MS in total but amplify and clairaudiance alone is more than enough to make up for the deficit and the feat deficit and a good portion of the skill point deficit.  I don't even whine, I don't play a sneak very often at all anymore, but I have known for years the balance was broken when the listen rings were made. MS can not compete with Listen now that the gear is closer to each other. A ~20 advantage to MS over listen in gear is the only way I know of to make it a competitive roll that rewards build over item accumulation and the rings are in the game and not going anywhere so its what it is.

For spy scenes you are better off emoting your rolls and the others counter rolling since you have a reasonable chance of success 1 roll v. 1 roll instead of the constant checks the engine does.  But eh....  people who know you are there modify their behavior even if unintentionally, its subliminal and natural.

[Endlessorrow]

For long term stealthy stalking or trying to be a. Were ficus and hiding in a small room with someone it should be hard if they take mundane and magical precautions to maintain privacy. Such are the hazards and dificulties of spying hey? But for combat purposes silence can be incredibly usefull. Not so much from items though. In my pvp experience having a cleric ally cast a silence or extended silence on a sneak is very effective.
  In lowlevel pvp on a server with no +5 weapons availible outside of gmw. it was my preffered way for mage killing as well. A stealthy archer with silence and a +5 aa enchanted arrows, creeping close to a fully buffed mage and firing away with called shot leg ruined their sense of premonitined/ acid sheathed invulnrability.

 I will just add that a druid/bard / arcane archer, a stealth/ detection specialist, I used to play in a action server was almost undetectible. And had many acusations of hacking ect. Tossed his way. It was just silence and druid hide buffs though mostly. Granted not as feasible here with levels being low and non stacking camoflauges. But with teamwork it could be aproxomated I imagine.

[Ehver]

The only argument that any of you are bringing up is: "Hey, you're doing it wrong."

Hey, maybe we don't want to be assassins ganking mages from the shadows. Hey, maybe we don't want to be charisma pumped characters that make friends with everyone and everything to learn all of their deep dark secrets, which we all know on a heavily factioned and clique-based server like this is nearly impossible anyway.

Maybe, just maybe, we WANT TO BE A SPY. We want to use our skill points, our feats, and our gear, to SPY. This is not a radical idea. There is an entire class made around it. I've played spies on previous servers and it is wonderful fun, so please stop with the "blar blar blar stop trying to play a stupid spy, go gank some stupid mages and make some friends".

It's not constructive.

[The time is now 4 AM]

I've played spies on previous servers and it is wonderful fun, so please stop with the "blar blar blar stop trying to play a stupid spy, go gank some stupid mages and make some friends".

It's not constructive.

While I can agree a majority of the posts in the topic are not constructive and essentially do not pertain to the actual Issue the original poster wished to address. You do realize that stealth is not the only way one can spy? There is always the method of infiltration and subterfuge. While stealth has it's uses I think we can all agree that a person attempting to conceal themselves does not become Invisible. For 'Spies' in fiction typically  a majority of their work is not done hiding behind a curtain while a secret meeting takes place. In most literary works they are people who place themselves close to the ones they are Spying on. I somehow think the concept has been bastardized  and confused somewhere along the lines by the majority of the player base. Ultimately what happens in these threads is someone brings up an issue then the merits of said issue are discussed and then the conversation moves well off track. And so I take this moment to remind everyone of the initial post:

Please keep discussion about the stacking of this particular spell with other spells.  This is not a discussion of stealth vs detect overall.


Claim:  It may be an oversight, but you can stack C/C with Amplify, even though you can not stack it with True Seeing.  (For those not familiar with the spell, it gives +10 listen and +10 Spot for 1 round per caster level.  That's 5 rounds on potions or scrolls.  That is 150 detect rolls minimum. EDIT - Incorrect, sorry for the confusion.  You roll listen once per round, but it checks for circumstantial modifiers 5 times per second.  Why?  No idea.  But I still think that since this spell does not stack with True Seeing, it should not stack with Amplify which is even stronger in terms of raw bonus.

Suggestion:  Make this spell unstackable with Amplify.   Amplify provides the bigger bonus of the two anyways, and also outclasses True Seeing from items by 9 points, and potions by 7 points.

Reasons:  C/C has a longer duration than Amplify, meaning that you can cast it first, follow it with Amplify, and get the full effects of both for Amplify's duration.  This adds up to +30 listen on two items so cheap that you can buy them with the gold you have left over after purchasing starting gear and walking through the mists for the first time.  30 listen for 90 rolls means that you are likely to roll multiple 20s in that time, and so a sneak will have to beat 50 move silently to ensure he is not spotted.  The spell's availability has made it quite easy to obtain.  There are items that drop commonly, even on low-mid spawn, in starting areas such as the Shadow Forests and the Morninglord Temple.  As a matter of fact, you'd be hard pressed NOT to find an item with C/C on it in a single run through one of those areas.  Just before my post, I went and looted Shadow Forest on mid spawn to test this.  I got 3 of the items out of the 6 corpses I checked.

Alternative:  If it is insisted that this spell remain stackable, I would suggest at least lowering it to +5 or having to scale with caster level up to +10.

Personally I agree with Legion. I think a lot of us do.

[Ehver]

I've played spies on previous servers and it is wonderful fun, so please stop with the "blar blar blar stop trying to play a stupid spy, go gank some stupid mages and make some friends".

It's not constructive.

While I can agree a majority of the posts in the topic are not constructive and essentially do not pertain to the actual Issue the original poster wished to address. You do realize that stealth is not the only way one can spy? There is always the method of infiltration and subterfuge. While stealth has it's uses I think we can all agree that a person attempting to conceal themselves does not become Invisible. For 'Spies' in fiction typically  a majority of their work is not done hiding behind a curtain while a secret meeting takes place. In most literary works they are people who place themselves close to the ones they are Spying on. I somehow think the concept has been bastardized  and confused somewhere along the lines by the majority of the player base. Ultimately what happens in these threads is someone brings up an issue then the merits of said issue are discussed and then the conversation moves well off track. And so I take this moment to remind everyone of the initial post:

I agree with you, and I understand. But in NWN there is a class built for this purpose. The Shadowdancer gets Hide in Plain Sight for a reason - they literally can hide in plain sight. That's not to say that I'm advocating stealthers should all just stand around eavesdropping with little to no RP involved. Not at all - I've played this class on previous servers and there was a lot of detail involved in it, a lot of RP, and I really and truly enjoyed it. I was rather excited by the prospect on such a heavily divided server as this, though those hopes were quickly dashed. The normal routine is (and I've seen it many times):

1. Go to locked room.
2. Switch all gear to detection gear.
3. Cast every possible detection spell in existence.
4. Stand still and look around.
5. Catch spy.

They don't even actually check around the room. They literally just stand still and wait for you to pop up onto their screen. And with the amount of bonuses you can get to detection skills, it doesn't matter how beefed up you are as a stealther (levels, skill points, feats, gear, whatever) - a low level can and will find you. This is intensely annoying and, as I said, has managed to almost completely negate my class.

But I'm probably just butthurt because I always play SDs. </3

Either way, no matter what points you bring up saying "you should RP it differently", the fact remains: there is an imbalance that needs to be fixed. You should not be able to beef up detection to ungodly numbers while not being able to do the same to stealth. Simple.