Stacking Clairaudience/Clairvoyance

[Legion XXI]

Please keep discussion about the stacking of this particular spell with other spells.  This is not a discussion of stealth vs detect overall.


Claim:  It may be an oversight, but you can stack C/C with Amplify, even though you can not stack it with True Seeing.  (For those not familiar with the spell, it gives +10 listen and +10 Spot for 1 round per caster level.  That's 5 rounds on potions or scrolls.  That is 150 detect rolls minimum. EDIT - Incorrect, sorry for the confusion.  You roll listen once per round, but it checks for circumstantial modifiers 5 times per second.  Why?  No idea.  But I still think that since this spell does not stack with True Seeing, it should not stack with Amplify which is even stronger in terms of raw bonus.

Suggestion:  Make this spell unstackable with Amplify.   Amplify provides the bigger bonus of the two anyways, and also outclasses True Seeing from items by 9 points, and potions by 7 points.

Reasons:  C/C has a longer duration than Amplify, meaning that you can cast it first, follow it with Amplify, and get the full effects of both for Amplify's duration.  This adds up to +30 listen on two items so cheap that you can buy them with the gold you have left over after purchasing starting gear and walking through the mists for the first time.  30 listen for 90 rolls means that you are likely to roll multiple 20s in that time, and so a sneak will have to beat 50 move silently to ensure he is not spotted.  The spell's availability has made it quite easy to obtain.  There are items that drop commonly, even on low-mid spawn, in starting areas such as the Shadow Forests and the Morninglord Temple.  As a matter of fact, you'd be hard pressed NOT to find an item with C/C on it in a single run through one of those areas.  Just before my post, I went and looted Shadow Forest on mid spawn to test this.  I got 3 of the items out of the 6 corpses I checked.

Alternative:  If it is insisted that this spell remain stackable, I would suggest at least lowering it to +5 or having to scale with caster level up to +10.

[eyeofpestilence]

+1

[ethinos]

I have to agree. Stacking shouldn't be possible with True Seeing, Amplify, or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.

[Endlessorrow]

Listen is the lesser detection skill. It alows you to see a stealthed target on your screen but they will still get the attack from hiding and sneak attack damage ect. Also it is completly defeated by a stealthed target using the silence spell. Completly undetectible by listen if silenced. I think these weaknesses for listen do call for it having the advantage of a easier number to boost up than spot.

[Legion XXI]

Listen is the lesser detection skill. It alows you to see a stealthed target on your screen but they will still get the attack from hiding and sneak attack damage ect. Also it is completly defeated by a stealthed target using the silence spell. Completly undetectible by listen if silenced. I think these weaknesses for listen do call for it having the advantage of a easier number to boost up than spot.

   The duration on the silence ball is exactly 18 seconds.  It also breaks stealth when used.  It's not really useful.  The only way to get a longer duration is on a bard, and you can't say "it's possible to negate listen" just based on the fact that a single class has a spell for it.  The spell does not even last long, so it can't be used for spying, only ganks.  And well, if you are just going to walk a straight line at the target and attack, you don't even NEED stealth mode really.  I could get better results just popping haste and sprinting at you while you are flat-footed.

[Endlessorrow]

Clerics and bards get silence spells. The 3 round duration on silence items is anoyingly short. 12 seconds shorter than amplify items I believe.  They should get the same duration as amplify items for sure.

[ethinos]

The duration on the silence ball is exactly 18 seconds.  It also breaks stealth when used.  It's not really useful.  The only way to get a longer duration is on a bard, and you can't say "it's possible to negate listen" just based on the fact that a single class has a spell for it.  The spell does not even last long, so it can't be used for spying, only ganks.  And well, if you are just going to walk a straight line at the target and attack, you don't even NEED stealth mode really.  I could get better results just popping haste and sprinting at you while you are flat-footed.

Use the Silence Ball before entering stealth mode then. And if you don't find the item useful, recommend an improvement for it or simply don't use it.

[Legion XXI]

You guys are missing the point entirely.   Yes, you can use it and THEN enter stealth mode, which leaves you with about 16 seconds to break line of sight and do your sneaking.  What can you do in 16 seconds that is useful, other than stab someone?  And again, if you wanted to use it for ganks, there are way better options.  Like, for example, UV yourself and cast darkness on the enemy.

[Troukk]

I agree. Stacking is just wrong.

[ethinos]

You guys are missing the point entirely.   Yes, you can use it and THEN enter stealth mode, which leaves you with about 16 seconds to break line of sight and do your sneaking.  What can you do in 16 seconds that is useful, other than stab someone?  And again, if you wanted to use it for ganks, there are way better options.  Like, for example, UV yourself and cast darkness on the enemy.

As I said in my last post, recommend an improvement for it then. Maybe give it a higher level casting power. Or recommend a more powerful version. Don't just complain about it. That's not very constructive.

[Endlessorrow]

If not stealthing for combat purposes or sneaking by a monster or guard or someting what are you sneaking for that needs a long term undetctibility? Spying? Yeah I guess I can see that. Spying or stalking.

[Legion XXI]

You guys are missing the point entirely.   Yes, you can use it and THEN enter stealth mode, which leaves you with about 16 seconds to break line of sight and do your sneaking.  What can you do in 16 seconds that is useful, other than stab someone?  And again, if you wanted to use it for ganks, there are way better options.  Like, for example, UV yourself and cast darkness on the enemy.

As I said in my last post, recommend an improvement for it then. Maybe give it a higher level casting power. Or recommend a more powerful version. Don't just complain about it. That's not very constructive.

I don't think it's something that should be made stronger.  Silence is a potentially game-breaking thing because it removes the opposed roll entirely.  That's the problem.  It is useless now, but if you made it turns/level (the minimum duration of most stealth based buffs) it would be so utterly broken that whoever suggested it would be hated for all of eternity.  

All I am suggesting here is that through 2 low level spells and gear, it's possible to outclass 90% of sneaks without a single point or feat in the skill.  That is not a "detect build", that is a guy with zero listen using ONLY items to detect people.  They are not a boost, they replace his skill points entirely.  That's the problem.  Have you ever heard of a lvl 2 sneak hiding with only gear and 0 hide/ms?  No, because it's not possible.  So why should a lvl 2 with no points in the skill be able to detect most dedicated sneak builds who took 3 feats, two skills and a full kit of hard to acquire gear for it?  That's what I'm getting at here.


@Endless - Yes, spying.  Listening to conversations.  Information gathering.  Not all sneaks are out to just gank people from stealth, there is a lot of potential with the skill.

[ethinos]

All I am suggesting here is that through 2 low level spells and gear, it's possible to outclass 90% of sneaks without a single point or feat in the skill.  That is not a "detect build", that is a guy with zero listen using ONLY items to detect people.  They are not a boost, they replace his skill points entirely.  That's the problem.  Have you ever heard of a lvl 2 sneak hiding with only gear and 0 hide/ms?  No, because it's not possible.  So why should a lvl 2 with no points in the skill be able to detect most dedicated sneak builds who took 3 feats, two skills and a full kit of hard to acquire gear for it?  That's what I'm getting at here.

I have to agree. Stacking shouldn't be possible with True Seeing, Amplify, or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.

I did agree that it shouldn't stack. But D&D has always been a game where gear and magic trumps personal skills. I'd prefer the game to depend more on your raw skills and less on magic/gear, but most folks shudder at the idea of a low/no/weak magic setting.

[Endlessorrow]

The thing that has always bothered me about amplify is it should have some drawbacks. Like if a werewolf lord lets out a mighty howl infront of you that can be heard for miles, or a soundburst spell or any other loud sound while you have amplify or cc up.. well that should be it for your hearing atleast for a while. Maybe in game terms a fort save should apply when in combat or on castingthe amplify spell to simulate this heighend sensitivity. Fail it and you get the deafness effect.

[eyeofpestilence]

@Endless - Yes, spying.  Listening to conversations.  Information gathering.  Not all sneaks are out to just gank people from stealth, there is a lot of potential with the skill.

+1

What really gets me is we play on a horror themed server. That which is just out of sight, cannot be scene, or the unknown is a classic horror theme. Yet....it's so feared OOC that items to catch "those damnable sneaks" have broken the mould. Case in point, a dedicated detector in listen contacted me to ask how decent a mid 80's listen skill before the d20 rol. Given all MS gear, situational bonuses this char would catch a dedicated 20th lvl sneak with top gear standing still, behind a wall at the edge of his screen in a round. Why? Metal Ash pointed out the best Stealth focused PC's get is mid to high 60's ms.

Stealth gear to counter the plethora of detect gear breaks server costs rules. These spells stacking just add to the insanity of it.

[Budly]

I do not get this whole spying part Eye.

Where do you hide in a room? Under that lamp or behind a curtain? People holding a secret conversation would probably lock the door thightly and look everywhere if someone is inside. Yet the god damn sneaker is hiding infront of their eyes on unseen. And we will have excuses thrown like "but they know how to hide and fade into a crowd or use a shadow". Not valid, nor is "Their own fault for not being a detector build". I for one, surely would find people hiding in my bedroom even if im not a "Trained eye". You do understand the poor part of RP here? This is probably why NWN has a ton of these things, overpowered or not.

I can understand the issue at hand here. But there is not much to do about it. Im with Ethinos on this one, less magical crap is better. Not gonna happen although, scrolls and magical gear comes in floods. Thats something you sneakers would agree and it would mean less spells like this.

[eyeofpestilence]

I do not get this whole spying part Eye.

Where do you hide in a room? Under that lamp or behind a curtain? People holding a secret conversation would probably lock the door thightly and look everywhere if someone is inside. Yet the god damn sneaker is hiding infront of their eyes on unseen. And we will have excuses thrown like "but they know how to hide and fade into a crowd or use a shadow". Not valid, nor is "Their own fault for not being a detector build". I for one, surely would find people hiding in my bedroom even if im not a "Trained eye". You do understand the poor part of RP here? This is probably why NWN has a ton of these things, overpowered or not.

Some humor to show an example. This is what 15 points of stealth above a detector would bring in game, example of 40 spot to 55 hide. ~120 seconds before being found.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2l5Yt6LBfo[/youtube]

Instead in game you get Inspector Clouseau seeing Cato in the fridge as he opens the door to his house.

I can understand the issue at hand here. But there is not much to do about it. Im with Ethinos on this one, less magical crap is better. Not gonna happen although, scrolls and magical gear comes in floods. Thats something you sneakers would agree and it would mean less spells like this.

I fully agree there should be less and lower powered gear....for detectors. All the detector stuff breaks the rules. Top end stealth gear mostly provides +4/+4. Alternatively you get gear for one of hide or MS at +6. This is supposed to counter the detectors gear at ~1.5 to 1.75 value but in fact it's instead +5 rings and helms for detectors vs. +4 for stealth which is a 0.8 ratio.

Given the values we are speaking about for those with stealth in the 50-60 range. Vampire mist form gives +50 to +55 to hide and MS. Therefore to represent a person in stealth in game where magical gear is used to both detect and hide, the person you are looking for is likely not fully corporeal b/c of the magical gear they wear. The game doesn't represent this well.

I for one, surely would find people hiding in my bedroom even if im not a "Trained eye".

To use a differing example, would you spot the Predator in your room? maybe given some time (say between 1 and 120 seconds.) Would you spot him hiding before you entered your house or apartment? Current spot/listen gear allows the later scenario against sneaks. The stacking buffs and the strength of the detectors gear is what breaks the ratio.  

[Dread]

To be honest, the addition of the listening horns wasn't a particularly great idea. Bards had a secondary role as detectors, which is now more or less disappeared given everyone and their Mom can use those horns. At the very least, I would suggest the listening horns are only usable by Bards and those who bother to put points into UMD.

[Vanitas]

To be honest, the addition of the listening horns wasn't a particularly great idea. Bards had a secondary role as detectors, which is now more or less disappeared given everyone and their Mom can use those horns. At the very least, I would suggest the listening horns are only usable by Bards and those who bother to put points into UMD.

Seconded.

[Ehver]

Where do you hide in a room? Under that lamp or behind a curtain? People holding a secret conversation would probably lock the door thightly and look everywhere if someone is inside. Yet the god damn sneaker is hiding infront of their eyes on unseen.

It's called Hide in Plain Sight. It's a feat. Shadowdancers get it.

Unfortunately it is rendered useless in most situations, except against NPCs. I had hoped Laine would end up being a spy, as I've played on previous servers, but it's proven impossible here, and I've given it up entirely after being caught more times than I can count. Getting hold of the necessary equipment is extremely difficult and costly, and no matter how many points and feats you sink into your stealth skills, the general consensus is that if someone wants to spot you, they'll do it without much effort.

It's a shame really.

[Heretic]

Lmao,

Hide in plain sight on PotM?

http://movieclips.com/QN3q-erik-the-viking-movie-you-cant-see-me/

[Metal_ash]

When i first started to play here 5+ years ago, sneaks could get NRs in hide and MS that made it really hard for spotters or listeners to detect them, most cause there was not this much gear that added them...

With changes and items put in to aid the detectors the tables turned...

Stealth is some cases, specially aided with magic is sure not like...i hide behind the curtain or under the table... it is more at times, become one with a shadow...or, predator like camouflage.

When it comes to sneak VS detection it now a days favor the detector and that big time as they can hit scores sneaks can not.

As i mentioned before in another thread... I do have a character, with no skillpoints or feat what so ever in spot, with a simple spell he can have permanent cast upon him as the duration is far longer then his rest time, aided with gear he actually hit a wee bit over 40 spot. Now... that means he can rather easy find sneakers with 50-55 hide. Take this to my level 13 pure rogue with some good gear ( not have THE best gear ), he would stand no chance to get past my other character, maybe aided by scrolls of camouflage he could hope to remain hidden for some time.
Is this fair??? it sure ain't.
Here we have a character with gear and a spell VS a Character that have placed allot of skillpoints, collected good sneak gear and also aided with scrolls and 3 feats... and he still get detected by a character that have not even focused on be good at it.

To give sneaks a fair chance they NEED to have 10-15 more in Hide VS spot and MS VS listen to at least be able to remain hidden for some time.

Another problem is that most sneak gear also only give bonus to either Hide or MS while a sneak need to have good stats in them both.

I have played both detector characters and sneaks, and trust me...sneaks have a hard time here on PoTM, if you not believe me...roll a sneak up and find out exactly how hard time they have here.

And as i mentioned before....many sneaks have their sneak skills as their TOP POWER, their main strength.
I not think you spellcasters would be to happy if they gave you all a 75% spell failure on permanent basis.

Think of the predator movie... There you have UBER sneaker, he remains undetected for some time... but even he get detected when he lingers about and when they have learned he actually is around there somewhere.
BUT he is not getting spotted in 3 seconds time, something he sure would have been here on PoTM.
- There is something in those trees.
3 seconds later.
- oh, there it is, blast it...
 The End

Not think the movie would have been that great if that happend.

Also, what happend to the predator when hit by water, of...his camouflage drops, and he lose one of his main powers. exactly same as to what happend if you not let sneaks be able to sneak.

( yes i am a fan of the predator movies )

The only ones that can change this is DM and Developers and until they do, we live with it and play there after...

But to say anything else then that sneaking for now is semi broken, then i will assume you never played a sneak, or have no intention of do so and just want to be able to detect them when ever you feel like it.

[Bodhidharma]

Gooby plz, the only role sneakers have on the server is to fetch gear and act as merchants.

In fact, you should rename the Rogue class to "Merchant"

[Metal_ash]

Gooby plz, the only role sneakers have on the server is to fetch gear and act as merchants.

In fact, you should rename the Rogue class to "Merchant"

Could be cause they can not stalk, or act as a spy... cause close to anyone that want to will detect them.

I do remember my first encounter with Heretics old character, Armand...a feared shadowdancer/ assassin.
I had a character back then named Lemmy Fiddlesticks, at the time level 7 and on his way to become a SD him self.
Lemmy was rather good detector, with gear and such from today... Lemmy would actually had been able to see Armand hiding.

Now, this is disheartened for anyone...a level 7 spot or hear your god like sneaker that is like 10 levels higher then the detector.

Sneakers want to be able to sneak, detectors want to be able to detect... something that both should be able to do.
But as i said...for now, detection wins all the time as you can get so much higher score in both listen and spot then you can ever have in Hide or MS.

[Heretic]

Here's a thought that precedes any gear talk :

How about creating flawed characters with actual weaknesses & limitations ?