Amplify and Level Scale

[Legion XXI]

I'd like this discussion to remain simple and about the topic.  This is not about balance of stealth/detect as a whole, it's about the power of this single level 1 spell.

Claim: I don't think Amplify should be a straight +20 listen.


Reasoning:  In active detect mode, you make a detect roll 5 times per second.  The duration of amplify on scrolls/items is 18 seconds.  That is 90 rolls. EDIT - Incorrect, sorry for the confusion.  You roll listen once per round, but it checks for circumstantial modifiers 5 times per second.  Why?  Who knows. But I still stand by my claim that a flat +20 is a bit much, considering the availability of the spell.

There is no reason that a level 1 spell should give a +20 to a skill for 90 consecutive rolls.  Especially a skill that you only need to pass a SINGLE roll on to detect someone.  With this spell alone, no gear, no skill points, and no WIS mod, you can spot anyone who has under 40 move silently, just by using the listening horn that has no restrictions, 40 charges, and costs 1k.  True Sight has been altered here to only give +1 per level, and I think that is very appropriate (That ends up being a +11 from scrolls, and a +13 from the player made potions).  Other spells that are useful on items received a nerf too.  Knock, for example, used to be a flat +10 open lock here.  It was revised to be +1/2 levels because any non-caster could just pop a scroll or Knock item and get the full benefit as well without even being a caster.

Solution: Make Amplify scale with caster level.  High level bards are very skilled with this kind of thing, and so they will be able to get the full benefit of the spell.  It will also help to alleviate some of the unbalance between listen/move silently on the server.  At the same time, there will still be detectors who can easily spot/listen people by simply putting points into the skill and using this as a small boost rather than an instant detect.

Rebuttal: A very common claim for this is that "Most people don't have a ton of consumables, and can't walk around with this spell on all the time".  The cost for these scrolls in the shops that sell them is about 33gp each, if I remember right.  I would also point out that this spell was never intended to be a spell you walk around with active all the time.  However, if you want to avoid a sneak listening in on your conversation, all that is required is that you go into a room.  Then, you shut the door and then use all your short term detect buffs.  From there, they have nowhere to go and you are going to detect them with the 90 rolls that happen over the 18 second time period of this spell.  Even if a room is not available, you can just pop this spell wherever you are (Other than the Outskirts or Barovian city maps, the entire server is basically free reign to do this with no concequences), and anyone who is in stealth nearby will have to beat all 90 of your rolls.  

In closing, I think this would help balance out what many perceive to be an unbalanced mechanic.  The fact that this stacks with Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (Other thread, should be addressed separately but still worth noting) only makes it even stronger.  It would still provide a small boost to non-casters, and allow casters with levels in their skill to still have the full on power of the spell.


Alternative:  At least reduce it to a flat +5 or +10 if you do not like the scale idea.  20 points to a skill is quite excessive when you consider the stealth's counterpart (One With the Land) only gives a +4 to Move Silently.  Also, "Silence" items last only 18 seconds as well, and require you to exit stealth mode to use them, which completely negates the entire reason you want to sue them.

[eyeofpestilence]

+1

[ethinos]

Amplify is +20 for 1 round/level, which doesn't seem overly powerful to me. Camouflage for instance, is also a level 1 spell that gives +10 Hide for 10 rounds/level. That's 10 times the duration for half the bonus. Nor does 18 seconds sound like an overly long period of time, despite how many checks per second the game makes.

[Legion XXI]

Amplify is +20 for 1 round/level, which doesn't seem overly powerful to me. Camouflage for instance, is also a level 1 spell that gives +10 Hide for 10 rounds/level. That's 10 times the duration for half the bonus. Nor does 18 seconds sound like an overly long period of time, despite how many checks per second the game makes.

I actually addressed that exact thing...here.  You don't walk around with it up all the time, you use it when you want to know if someone is around.  If you use it and nobody is around, it's likely they are not going to just randomly appear 20 seconds later.  You use it after walking through a populated area where sneaks hang out to follow people, or you use it once you get to your destination.  It's that easy.  You don't need it up all the time.

Rebuttal: A very common claim for this is that "Most people don't have a ton of consumables, and can't walk around with this spell on all the time".  The cost for these scrolls in the shops that sell them is about 33gp each, if I remember right.  I would also point out that this spell was never intended to be a spell you walk around with active all the time.  However, if you want to avoid a sneak listening in on your conversation, all that is required is that you go into a room.  Then, you shut the door and then use all your short term detect buffs.  From there, they have nowhere to go and you are going to detect them with the 90 rolls that happen over the 18 second time period of this spell.  Even if a room is not available, you can just pop this spell wherever you are (Other than the Outskirts or Barovian city maps, the entire server is basically free reign to do this with no concequences), and anyone who is in stealth nearby will have to beat all 90 of your rolls. 

Also, if you want to talk bonus to hide, you need to counter it with Spot.  Spot opposes Hide.  The bonus to Spot from TS is +11 minimum, and far outreaches the duration of camouflage from scrolls, which 90% of sneaks will use it from.  As you level up, it can reach as high as +20 spot for Wizard/Sorc/Cleric/Druid.  You can not stack Camouflage and Mass camouflage.

[Endlessorrow]

Silence gives + infinity to move silent.

[ethinos]

I know what opposes Hide. I was comparing a stealth spell with a detection spell for the point of comparing numbers and the strength of the spells. If anything, I think Clauraudience/Claurvoyance is kind of weak considering it's a level 3 spell that basically splits Amplify's bonus into two different detection skill bonuses for the same rounds/level.

[Legion XXI]

Silence gives + infinity to move silent.

No it doesn't, it unstealths you on use and then halts opposing rolls for 18 seconds.  In 18 seconds, all you an do in stealth is try and gank someone.  You can't actually sneak around with it, trying to blow a silence scroll every 18 seconds and find a way to break line of sight so you can hide again.

[Endlessorrow]

Have camoflauge and mass camoflauge ben scripted not to stack here on potm? They stack on every other nwn module.

[Legion XXI]

Have camoflauge and mass camoflauge ben scripted not to stack here on potm? They stack on every other nwn module.

They do not stack here.

[ethinos]

Have camoflauge and mass camoflauge ben scripted not to stack here on potm? They stack on every other nwn module.

If it is, it's not listed in the Spell Changes thread.

[Avatar6666]

Have camoflauge and mass camoflauge ben scripted not to stack here on potm? They stack on every other nwn module.

They made this change, though I am not sure why...

[Lucadia]

lots of spells are incorrect on the spell changes thread.

[Exordium]

Reasoning:  In active detect mode, you make a detect roll 5 times per second.  The duration of amplify on scrolls/items is 18 seconds.  That is 90 rolls.

 

Far as I'm aware, both MS/Hide and Spot/Listen rolls are done once every 6 seconds, in other words, once a round. What's done 5 times a second, is checking the rolls with all changed modifiers like lighting, distance, movement, etc.

[Legion XXI]

Reasoning:  In active detect mode, you make a detect roll 5 times per second.  The duration of amplify on scrolls/items is 18 seconds.  That is 90 rolls.

 

Far as I'm aware, both MS/Hide and Spot/Listen rolls are done once every 6 seconds, in other words, once a round. What's done 5 times a second, is checking the rolls with all changed modifiers like lighting, distance, movement, etc.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Detect

I posted the link to the wiki for reference as to what I was looking at.   According to the last paragraph there it seems that I was, in fact, incorrect in my calculation of how many rolls are made.  I'm surprised I've played this game for so many years and never caught that little disclaimer.  You learn something every day.   It's strange that it checks for situation modifiers that often...I can't see them changing that much in the time period of 0.2 seconds, but still, I was wrong.  Good catch.

That being said, a free +20 to a skill still seems a little excessive, regardless of how many rolls it's for.  I mean we have reached the point on our server where some people who claim to be "Detect builds" don't have Spot or Listen at all.  They have zero points in detect skills, but can pump it high enough through gear/spells that they don't really need any points at all.  That's my problem with all of this.  This spell, stacked with c/c, stacked with 2 +5 rings, a +5 helm,  a +3 or 4 necklace, and a d20 roll has replaced listen skill entirely.  I just want skill points (or caster levels, if you go the spell route) to play at least a role in a detect "build".  There is no reason a "Kit" should replace a "build" entirely.  Try that with almost any other skill and you will get laughed at as you fail checks.  Listen points are only used to detect the highest tier of sneaks, using stealth gear that does not even spawn any more.  You can detect anyone that is lower than the elite minority using just the formula above with no skills or feats at all.  It just seems unbalanced to me.

[Dread]

Amplify is just fine as it is. The problem is anyone can use the spell now with those bloody horns, instead of it being limited to bards. Their role as detectors can now be more or less eclipsed by other classes as it all it takes to surpass a bard in terms of skill is a better WIS score and a few more ranks.

[BarleyBeer]

I highly dislike this idea, as well. While making it per caster level may seem reasonable, it's really also screwing yourself over as much as it's helping you. Especially if you're a stealth based rogue that highly invested in UMD.

[Legion XXI]

I highly dislike this idea, as well. While making it per caster level may seem reasonable, it's really also screwing yourself over as much as it's helping you. Especially if you're a stealth based rogue that highly invested in UMD.

I have a stealth based rogue with Listen as his detect skill.  He has an arsenal of Listening Horns, Rokuma Acorns, and potions of C/C.  He also has UMD, but why bother with that when all the items have no fail chance and no restrictions?  I'm fully aware of how much this will nerf the use of the spell, but I'm also fully aware that the +20 and +10 from the two spells combined, (added to his actual listen gear and skill points) means I can (at level 7) detect a vast majority of sneaks.  As a matter of fact, these items are so frequent and cheap that I can afford to just spam them off every time I enter an inn room if I want and really never notice a hit to my pocketbook.  The Listening Horn alone has 1,200 seconds of +20 non-restricted Listen skill action just in it's beautiful little casing.  

(5 rounds per cast, six seconds in a round, 40 rounds.  That = 20 real life minutes, should you just use it back to back.  The item costs about 1k from the vistani, and there is almost always one there.)

[BarleyBeer]

It sounds like the spells have nothing to do with your issue here. It sounds like you're more upset over the fact that listen gear and items are overly easy to come across these days.

Perhaps suggest making all listen items drop less frequently, or on par with the rate stealth gear is dropping (read: rarely, if ever).

[Legion XXI]

It sounds like the spells have nothing to do with your issue here. It sounds like you're more upset over the fact that listen gear and items are overly easy to come across these days.

Perhaps suggest making all listen items drop less frequently, or on par with the rate stealth gear is dropping (read: rarely, if ever).

No, what is really bothering me here is that through 2 spells, you can get +30 listen.  A sneak's answer to that is to use one with the land, and get +4 move silently.  As far as the actual gear on the server, I think the balance is just fine.  You've got rings of silence to answer to jackal rings, you've got hector's treads that match the bat helm, wraith belt matches necklace of ears, and that leaves the stalker's shortbow giving sneaks a 3 point advantage.    ....which is then blown out of the water by 30 points of listen from spells vs  +4 MS from one with the land.

Don't suggest to use "silence" because to even do that you have to...
1. - Know when your opponent is going to cast amplify.
2. - Get off screen, use silence item
3. - Sneak back, and make sure not to get the enemy inside the radius of silence because it will trigger initiative rolls and engage combat.

For all that work, you get 18 seconds of silence.

[BarleyBeer]

Then don't use silence, bro. I don't know any self-respecting stealther that goes, "lol, let me just go use silence really quick."

But yes, I can see where you're coming from. I know of a dude that'll be able to get his listen rolls into the 100s in the next few levels here with the addition of various spells and items. Most detectors, however, are in the 50 - 60s and can be bypassed.

I can understand that it's getting near the point of ridiculousness, but I'd personally rather see the reduction of listen items instead of nerfing spells.

Also nerfing amplify on top of not having it stack would just be brutal and nasty to any bards built specifically as a listen build.

[Avatar6666]

Then don't use silence, bro. I don't know any self-respecting stealther that goes, "lol, let me just go use silence really quick."

But yes, I can see where you're coming from. I know of a dude that'll be able to get his listen rolls into the 100s in the next few levels here with the addition of various spells and items. Most detectors, however, are in the 50 - 60s and can be bypassed.

I can understand that it's getting near the point of ridiculousness, but I'd personally rather see the reduction of listen items instead of nerfing spells.

Also nerfing amplify on top of not having it stack would just be brutal and nasty to any bards built specifically as a listen build.

This is the same argument that we had with camouflage and mass camouflage and it got Nerfed, so why not Nerf this to come close to equal ? That or simply remove the item and Nerf the spell to be more in line with other items and spells.

[BarleyBeer]

Perhaps some neutral ground needs to be found here that doesn't completely screw over listen builds, while making it equal with how stealth now works.

e.g., Reduction of Amplify to 10 (this is to be fair to people who use amplify scrolls), c/c stackable, while simultaneously either reducing drops of/nerfing listen gear or raising drops of stealth gear.

[Legion XXI]

Perhaps some neutral ground needs to be found here that doesn't completely screw over listen builds, while making it equal with how stealth now works.

e.g., Reduction of Amplify to 10 (this is to be fair to people who use amplify scrolls), c/c stackable, while simultaneously either reducing drops of/nerfing listen gear or raising drops of stealth gear.

Yeah, definitely.  I'm not looking to make detect underpowered - I use the listen skill on my own sneak too and I haaaaate having people spy on me.  I'm paranoid when it comes to it.  Ask Norture or Head Trauma, half of what our own sneaks would do is look around all paranoid and stack detect items before every meeting.

I just posted these suggestions because I highly doubt the team is going to nerf/remove the listen items that have been around for so long, and rounding them all up to be exchanged for the new ones would be a task in itself.  Even a reduction to something like +10 would be fine with me.  Literally anything other than what it is right now, or just make the items harder to get and stealth items easier to come by.  It's not for lack of gear in the toolset, mind you.  The gear is THERE, it just never drops.  I was not really trying to pass all of these changes at once, exactly as I posted them.  I just wanted to open a dialogue and find a middle ground that we can all work with.

[Avatar6666]

Lets do this by level instead.

Amplify spell :

Levels of caster    Bonus to listen
1-3                     +1
3-5                     +2
6-9                     +3
10-12                  +4
13-15                  +5
16-19                  +6
20                       +7

Have the horn set at 10th  level and you will get a +4, this still makes the horn useful and the spell more useful for high level bards as well. Fixes both issues.

[HellsPanda]

It also more than halves the power of the spell for a level 20 caster. Than what a new bard has today