Stealth-based Enchanting Suggestion

[Budly]

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

I tend to disagree, a dedicatd detector should always have a chance at beating a dedicated sneaker of course. But if detection always beats stealth, stealth becomes worthless (and unless you're a dedicated stealther, it's pretty much worthless currently).

To be honest though, values in the high 40s or even higher shouldn't exist anyway. Some skill values (not to mention AB and AC) are going through the roof currently and should quite frankly be reduced a tad. But that's another can of worms to open I guess

Rock beats scissors I guess. Right?

 yes and don't we all know:
"Rock is overpowered, paper is just about right" - Scissors

And the same can be said of the stealthers.

[Crimson Shuriken]

And the same can be said of the stealthers.

It should take a specialist to find a specialist. If you have an issue where you suspect a famed sneak might be on to you,  enlisting a character out there with maximum skill points and alertness and skill focus should be the roleplay move.  Its not however since anyone at all, any random Joe Blogg can in time get a two ring, one helmet, one necklace and drop a potion. The only saving grace for the server is that Amplify has never made it into an item lacking class restriction, but eh UMD is a hell of a drug. The current conditions prioritize item collection over feat choice and skill allocation and I think anyone who truly thinks about that a moment will agree it should not be that way ideally. Its a tough thing to balance, I think the jackal rings creation were the most misguided and short sighted additions. +10 listen effectively makes the baseline move silently 11 higher than it would be and two MS rings only give 8 so you are still 3 in deficit to go along with what was already long odds before.

Its not an imagined slight or disadvantage, its a long and hopeful road to make a stealth character that will be anything close to resembling successful in their chosen craft and its no guarantee they will ever have the satisfaction of going unnoticed when it matters. It is what it is, and no enchanting suggestion will much change that so you Budly and the rest of the "NWN's stealth is unrealistic" crowd can stop being worried this suggestion might change the server into omghaxxors ninja killed me too easy. It simply won't, it would however make it where getting equipped as a stealth based character was open to all characters and no just a friend of a friend who found one of the handful of shadow armors or cloak of silence that dropped in the past calendar year.

[queenofspades]

I tend to agree, and really, considering the chance of being spotted does increase dramatically over time. Not to mention that a lantern or other torch gives a spotter a bonus. Along with annoying lights on items.

The difference between never spotting a dedicated stealther [max ranks, feats, items] with a quite dedicated detector [no feats, only skill and items.] and having a good chance, should be those spotting feats. +3 from skill focus, +2 and +1 from other feats, more if you take something like artist for another +1.

Keeping in mind that really, I don't know how much the best and most high end items should be coming into this arguement, because not everyone has them, that I'm aware of, and if they drop so rarely, then that makes them a high level 'boost' late character at best. not everyone is that well equipped.

[Lucadia]

The only saving grace for the server is that Amplify has never made it into an item lacking class restriction

Seen listening horns right? 40 charges of amplify and they drop like candy.

[Avatar6666]

The only saving grace for the server is that Amplify has never made it into an item lacking class restriction

Seen listening horns right? 40 charges of amplify and they drop like candy.

+1, to many of those drop, almost as much as rings of the jackal.

[Budly]

And the same can be said of the stealthers.

It should take a specialist to find a specialist. If you have an issue where you suspect a famed sneak might be on to you,  enlisting a character out there with maximum skill points and alertness and skill focus should be the roleplay move.  Its not however since anyone at all, any random Joe Blogg can in time get a two ring, one helmet, one necklace and drop a potion. The only saving grace for the server is that Amplify has never made it into an item lacking class restriction, but eh UMD is a hell of a drug. The current conditions prioritize item collection over feat choice and skill allocation and I think anyone who truly thinks about that a moment will agree it should not be that way ideally. Its a tough thing to balance, I think the jackal rings creation were the most misguided and short sighted additions. +10 listen effectively makes the baseline move silently 11 higher than it would be and two MS rings only give 8 so you are still 3 in deficit to go along with what was already long odds before.

Its not an imagined slight or disadvantage, its a long and hopeful road to make a stealth character that will be anything close to resembling successful in their chosen craft and its no guarantee they will ever have the satisfaction of going unnoticed when it matters. It is what it is, and no enchanting suggestion will much change that so you Budly and the rest of the "NWN's stealth is unrealistic" crowd can stop being worried this suggestion might change the server into omghaxxors ninja killed me too easy. It simply won't, it would however make it where getting equipped as a stealth based character was open to all characters and no just a friend of a friend who found one of the handful of shadow armors or cloak of silence that dropped in the past calendar year.

In my opinion I rather have it the way we have it now then stealth being on the upper hand of skills where stealthers can stand by light sources, listening to whispers (which I seen happen) in a closed room. Which is just silly. So no, I do not think you stealthers can justify this.

And for one, I would RP stealth myself. I cannot speak for others but if someone want to try that out instead of leting the engine roll their hide skill...to sneak passed lets say me playing a garda. I would agree on it. I see where you are coming at although and mayhaps it need a minor tweak.

[Crimson Shuriken]

Ahem,  I actually have found one of those horns before and stand corrected.  Furthers the laughability of stealth, indeed and another ill advised item addition. It should be bard only at least.

[FullMoon]

And the same can be said of the stealthers.

It should take a specialist to find a specialist. If you have an issue where you suspect a famed sneak might be on to you,  enlisting a character out there with maximum skill points and alertness and skill focus should be the roleplay move.  Its not however since anyone at all, any random Joe Blogg can in time get a two ring, one helmet, one necklace and drop a potion. The only saving grace for the server is that Amplify has never made it into an item lacking class restriction, but eh UMD is a hell of a drug. The current conditions prioritize item collection over feat choice and skill allocation and I think anyone who truly thinks about that a moment will agree it should not be that way ideally. Its a tough thing to balance, I think the jackal rings creation were the most misguided and short sighted additions. +10 listen effectively makes the baseline move silently 11 higher than it would be and two MS rings only give 8 so you are still 3 in deficit to go along with what was already long odds before.

Its not an imagined slight or disadvantage, its a long and hopeful road to make a stealth character that will be anything close to resembling successful in their chosen craft and its no guarantee they will ever have the satisfaction of going unnoticed when it matters. It is what it is, and no enchanting suggestion will much change that so you Budly and the rest of the "NWN's stealth is unrealistic" crowd can stop being worried this suggestion might change the server into omghaxxors ninja killed me too easy. It simply won't, it would however make it where getting equipped as a stealth based character was open to all characters and no just a friend of a friend who found one of the handful of shadow armors or cloak of silence that dropped in the past calendar year.

Some good points. The average new stealth character will be lucky to have the following:

Ebon tiger armour +2 to hide
Cat boots +2 Move Silent
2 lesser rings of silence +2 ms x2
Forest mantle cloak +2 hide
Lighter Crossbow +2 Move silent when equipped
Shadowed hood +1 Hide

Total +8 Move Silent, +5 Hide

This is the terror that is the modern stealther. People simply don't sell better stealth gear but at 14th lvl you can get the boots and armour up with enchantment but even then you have not yet beat the base +20 the detector gets. Tell us again how overpowered sneaks are.

[ethinos]

In general, the classes that get Spot and Listen are also the classes that get Move Silently and Hide. You basically have Spy vs Spy, which I think is fitting. Everyone else has to spend double points to even get a weak amount of Spot and/or Listen at the detriment of class skills. While they may benefit early from available gear, they'll always end up being weaker than a dedicated sneaker at higher levels.

Also, it makes sense for a dedicated sneaker to always be geared up for sneaking, but for a typical PC, gearing up for detecting isn't very practical unless they typically participate in a lot of PvP. I know I'd prefer other bonuses if they were available: saves, resistances, spell slots, etc.

[Avatar6666]

In general, the classes that get Spot and Listen are also the classes that get Move Silently and Hide. You basically have Spy vs Spy, which I think is fitting. Everyone else has to spend double points to even get a weak amount of Spot and/or Listen at the detriment of class skills. While they may benefit early from available gear, they'll always end up being weaker than a dedicated sneaker at higher levels.

Also, it makes sense for a dedicated sneaker to always be geared up for sneaking, but for a typical PC, gearing up for detecting isn't very practical unless they typically participate in a lot of PvP. I know I'd prefer other bonuses if they were available: saves, resistances, spell slots, etc.

My fighter\weapon Master at 15th level has close to a 70+ listen. I think that is a bit much. Since I can hear most stealthers.

[ethinos]

Your character gets that as a weapon master skill, which is why I said 'in general'. Out of curiosity though, is your character always geared up as a dedicated Listen-er with that 70+?

[eyeofpestilence]

And the same can be said of the stealthers.

It should take a specialist to find a specialist. If you have an issue where you suspect a famed sneak might be on to you,  enlisting a character out there with maximum skill points and alertness and skill focus should be the roleplay move.  Its not however since anyone at all, any random Joe Blogg can in time get a two ring, one helmet, one necklace and drop a potion. The only saving grace for the server is that Amplify has never made it into an item lacking class restriction, but eh UMD is a hell of a drug. The current conditions prioritize item collection over feat choice and skill allocation and I think anyone who truly thinks about that a moment will agree it should not be that way ideally. Its a tough thing to balance, I think the jackal rings creation were the most misguided and short sighted additions. +10 listen effectively makes the baseline move silently 11 higher than it would be and two MS rings only give 8 so you are still 3 in deficit to go along with what was already long odds before.

Its not an imagined slight or disadvantage, its a long and hopeful road to make a stealth character that will be anything close to resembling successful in their chosen craft and its no guarantee they will ever have the satisfaction of going unnoticed when it matters. It is what it is, and no enchanting suggestion will much change that so you Budly and the rest of the "NWN's stealth is unrealistic" crowd can stop being worried this suggestion might change the server into omghaxxors ninja killed me too easy. It simply won't, it would however make it where getting equipped as a stealth based character was open to all characters and no just a friend of a friend who found one of the handful of shadow armors or cloak of silence that dropped in the past calendar year.

In my opinion I rather have it the way we have it now then stealth being on the upper hand of skills where stealthers can stand by light sources, listening to whispers (which I seen happen) in a closed room. Which is just silly. So no, I do not think you stealthers can justify this.

And for one, I would RP stealth myself. I cannot speak for others but if someone want to try that out instead of leting the engine roll their hide skill...to sneak passed lets say me playing a garda. I would agree on it. I see where you are coming at although and mayhaps it need a minor tweak.

A wizard can stop time, summon demons, and explode stuff in massive area effects or summon a blade which kills on a 20. Clerics raise the dead, heal wounds, and summon like a wizard, detectors get "magical" gear and use items with massive uses out the wazzo to counter a person in stealth. Stealth gets screwed b/c "you can't do that since it breaks reality." D&D is not reality.  

Gear ratio is very off. +5 listen & spot rings should be +2 max +3 for current stealth equipment. Given the plethora of detecting gear, for sneaks to have a chance at remaining undetected their gear will need to be +8 to +10 to counter the listen/spot gear added. Given the restrictions on cost of items, it's never going to happen as you need 2 skills per item for stealth, vrs. 1 for detection.

Note: 70+ listen will auto-detect without the d20 just about every sneak on the server even with circumstantial bonuses. exception would be a MPC, even then you'd likely catch them unless they were a hafling, dedicated dex based stealth based char with maxed out impossible to get gear, and a wight.

[edarsenik]

A wizard can stop time, summon demons, and explode stuff in massive area effects or summon a blade which kills on a 20. Clerics raise the dead, heal wounds, and summon like a wizard, detectors get "magical" gear and use items with massive uses out the wazzo to counter a person in stealth. Stealth gets screwed b/c "you can't do that since it breaks reality." D&D is not reality.  

Its not ''Reality'' no... But its supposed to portray REALISM and AUTHENTICITY. Its not justifiable to have someone who is ''sneaking'' standing beside a light source in plain view listening in on whispers right beside someone...

[Legion XXI]

We could all go 12 rounds on "realism" in fantasy games.  There are good points both for and against it, but that's not the point here.


Anyways, as for the actual point of this topic...

I really liked Folex's idea and hope the enchanted stuff gets implemented.  He kept it very reasonable and I think it's a fair trade off.  It's not much more than anything we already have, so it's not a balance issue that he's bringing up.  It's a gear availability issue that is contributing to other problems.  So again, +1 to this idea on the grounds that it's just making life a bit easier for the newer sneaks to get some love without calling up your best friend's sister's cousin's mother for some grandfathered shadowed armor. 

[Avatar6666]

Your character gets that as a weapon master skill, which is why I said 'in general'. Out of curiosity though, is your character always geared up as a dedicated Listen-er with that 70+?

Only need to use the horn mentioned here, the rest are items.

[edarsenik]

By the way..I also think there should be stealth enchants.. I just think detectors should always have a slight advantage, its just more realistic. (In my opinion..)

[eyeofpestilence]

A wizard can stop time, summon demons, and explode stuff in massive area effects or summon a blade which kills on a 20. Clerics raise the dead, heal wounds, and summon like a wizard, detectors get "magical" gear and use items with massive uses out the wazzo to counter a person in stealth. Stealth gets screwed b/c "you can't do that since it breaks reality." D&D is not reality.  

Its not ''Reality'' no... But its supposed to portray REALISM and AUTHENTICITY. Its not justifiable to have someone who is ''sneaking'' standing beside a light source in plain view listening in on whispers right beside someone...

It's justifiable b/c there is "Magic" involved through the items worn. Just like there is "Magic" involved for the detectors wearing the items.

[dutchy]

if sneaker enchanting gets implemented then yes spotting should also be implemented.

but it can also not be implemented at all leaving everything as it is.

to lazy to read trough whole debates.

[monsinyana]

And the same can be said of the stealthers.

It should take a specialist to find a specialist. If you have an issue where you suspect a famed sneak might be on to you,  enlisting a character out there with maximum skill points and alertness and skill focus should be the roleplay move.  Its not however since anyone at all, any random Joe Blogg can in time get a two ring, one helmet, one necklace and drop a potion. The only saving grace for the server is that Amplify has never made it into an item lacking class restriction, but eh UMD is a hell of a drug. The current conditions prioritize item collection over feat choice and skill allocation and I think anyone who truly thinks about that a moment will agree it should not be that way ideally. Its a tough thing to balance, I think the jackal rings creation were the most misguided and short sighted additions. +10 listen effectively makes the baseline move silently 11 higher than it would be and two MS rings only give 8 so you are still 3 in deficit to go along with what was already long odds before.

Its not an imagined slight or disadvantage, its a long and hopeful road to make a stealth character that will be anything close to resembling successful in their chosen craft and its no guarantee they will ever have the satisfaction of going unnoticed when it matters. It is what it is, and no enchanting suggestion will much change that so you Budly and the rest of the "NWN's stealth is unrealistic" crowd can stop being worried this suggestion might change the server into omghaxxors ninja killed me too easy. It simply won't, it would however make it where getting equipped as a stealth based character was open to all characters and no just a friend of a friend who found one of the handful of shadow armors or cloak of silence that dropped in the past calendar year.

Some good points. The average new stealth character will be lucky to have the following:

Ebon tiger armour +2 to hide
Cat boots +2 Move Silent
2 lesser rings of silence +2 ms x2
Forest mantle cloak +2 hide
Lighter Crossbow +2 Move silent when equipped
Shadowed hood +1 Hide

Total +8 Move Silent, +5 Hide

This is the terror that is the modern stealther. People simply don't sell better stealth gear but at 14th lvl you can get the boots and armour up with enchantment but even then you have not yet beat the base +20 the detector gets. Tell us again how overpowered sneaks are.

i have plans to enchant an ebon tiger armor at some point just to see what it adds
since the boots only give one kind of bonus- was it MS i think? (i am assuming here) the armor gives a hide bonus once enchanted. thats what seems to me to make sense anyway

the bonuses due to enchanting pretty much follow common sense on what the type of item is and what bonus it gives

[edarsenik]

It's justifiable b/c there is "Magic" involved through the items worn. Just like there is "Magic" involved for the detectors wearing the items.

I guess yeah... Though I always looked at it like the item you wear would only enhance your already existing skills.... Eg: The Helm of the Bat insnt really ''Magic'' but it enhances the wearers natural hearing through the shape of the ears... Giving you overall better hearing... Same could be said for the stealth gear... If youre role playing it out, it could be that the cloak you wear gives you a better hide skill, by helping you blend into your surroundings more...

[Endlessorrow]

One very common item whitch temporarily trumps all listen buffs and items is the very common silence ball. It lasts as long as amplify and makes a sneaker undetectible by listen.

[Avatar6666]

One very common item whitch temporarily trumps all listen buffs and items is the very common silence ball. It lasts as long as amplify and makes a sneaker undetectible by listen.

Does not help against spot rolls...An spot items are just as frequent as Listen ones are now.

[Crimson Shuriken]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

Item wise, if having either stealth or detection being a satisfying path to take is the goal, then items for stealth should equal to around 10-15 higher.  Dedicated detectors would be the only ones with a great advantage then, the non dedicated would be vulnerable and thats what I would rather see.

[Troukk]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

Item wise, if having either stealth or detection being a satisfying path to take is the goal, then items for stealth should equal to around 10-15 higher.  Dedicated detectors would be the only ones with a great advantage then, the non dedicated would be vulnerable and thats what I would rather see.

But there is also the issue that sneaking is active while detection is passive. The detector never knows when the sneaker is coming, on the other hand, the sneaker always knows when he's coming, so consumables / temporary buffs will favor the sneaker over the detector. It's not just a matter of items in my opinion.

Also, I'm not pretending to say that detection is not OP against sneaking, because it is. What I'm saying is that detection is OP against sneaking because that's the way it should be. Having an undetectable sneaker is a million times more gamebreaking than having an unsneakable detector.

And last but not least, I insist that a smart sneaker that doesn't try to do ridiculous things like sneaking into a hotel room walking next to the detector without being seen can sneak just fine. As I said earlier, sneaking and detection have circumstancial bonuses / nerfs that favor sneaks that do their job more realistically (like keeping your distance, avoiding lights, staying on the detector's back, standing still whenever possible, etc...)

[Avatar6666]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

Item wise, if having either stealth or detection being a satisfying path to take is the goal, then items for stealth should equal to around 10-15 higher.  Dedicated detectors would be the only ones with a great advantage then, the non dedicated would be vulnerable and thats what I would rather see.

But there is also the issue that sneaking is active while detection is passive. The detector never knows when the sneaker is coming, on the other hand, the sneaker always knows when he's coming, so consumables / temporary buffs will favor the sneaker over the detector. It's not just a matter of items in my opinion.

Also, I'm not pretending to say that detection is not OP against sneaking, because it is. What I'm saying is that detection is OP against sneaking because that's the way it should be. Having an undetectable sneaker is a million times more gamebreaking than having an unsneakable detector.

And last but not least, I insist that a smart sneaker that doesn't try to do ridiculous things like sneaking into a hotel room walking next to the detector without being seen can sneak just fine. As I said earlier, sneaking and detection have circumstancial bonuses / nerfs that favor sneaks that do their job more realistically (like keeping your distance, avoiding lights, staying on the detector's back, standing still whenever possible, etc...)

I agree with this some times, However...when the items for the detector out wiegh and have more bonus then the items for the stealth, you will spot them every time.