Stealth-based Enchanting Suggestion

[Dusk]

A simple suggestion:

Allow armors to be enchanted with essence made from Utter Dark Residue. Armors enchanted via this method give better stealth bonuses.

The residue is difficult enough to acquire as it is. Also, it makes sense a powerful shadow essence would yield increased stealth ability, and this will open up more options for enchanted armors for stealth-based characters. Yes, I'm aware a certain type of backing already gives a very good Hide bonus when enchanted, but some added variety would be welcomed IMO. No, I don't think boots need this extra variety. Lastly, what would be a precise, balanced exchange of AC and saves in favor of stealth is up for discussion/up to the developers.

[Avatar6666]

A simple suggestion:

Allow armors to be enchanted with essence made from Utter Dark Residue. Armors enchanted via this method give better stealth bonuses.

The residue is difficult enough to acquire as it is. Also, it makes sense a powerful shadow essence would yield increased stealth ability, and this will open up more options for enchanted armors for stealth-based characters. Yes, I'm aware a certain type of backing already gives a very good Hide bonus when enchanted, but some added variety would be welcomed IMO. No, I don't think boots need this extra variety. Lastly, what would be a precise, balanced exchange of AC and saves in favor of stealth is up for discussion/up to the developers.

+1, stealther became the red head step child when you can get spots as high as 70+ or listen of 70+, there should be a balance. I think stealth race should be just as much as the listen and spot race.

[monsinyana]

as an enchanter i like having more options

+1

[Juice]

Im all for this and it sounds like an awesome idea. If it goes through is another story. But yes Keen to see this happen.

[Legion XXI]

+1, seal of approval, would recommend to a friend.  Whatever I have to say to get more stealth options added.

[YouLitABonfire]

I'm for it. I find it unlikely it'll be added but i do agree there should be some love shown to stealth gear in general.

[Juice]

It would help a lot with the stealth peoples considering for some reason the loot tables arnt dropping stealth equiptment is not a server issue its just one of those things

[Troukk]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

[Hatsune]

I would completely agree with this, as long as it was incorporated into a fuller enchanting system. There should be other options then just catering to the 'stealth' people. Listen/Spot, search, perform, heal, influence.. all sorts of options would be great to have.

As Troukk said though, If Stealth is buffed, so to must you give options for the detection gear. No one should ever be able to be completely undetectable.

[Dusk]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

They still would. I've seen a level 12 roll over 70 on a Listen roll. To effectively 'beat' a dedicated detector, the sneaker must surpass the detector's rolls by 20, else their chance of staying undetected decays every six seconds, and that adds up very quickly if the sneaker isn't approaching that 'surpass by 20' limit.

I suggested this more to add variety for stealth characters in enchanting their armor than for it to be an end-all way to beat detectors. I would not wish either that any stealth character is able to surpass every dedicated detector on the server. Balance can be maintained by simply not making the stealth skill bonus from enchanting absurdly high, IMO.

[Legion XXI]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

Seeing as with the current gear set up, it's possible for just about anyone to get over 40 listen with zero points in the skill, I'd say that's really uncalled for.

Amplify scrolls, sold in stores for very cheap -> 20 listen.
C/C scrolls AND potions, cheap, found in lowbie areas and sold in stores -> 10 listen.
Gold Jackal Ring, fairly common drop from mid level areas, -> 5 listen x 2 slots.
Necklace of Ears, very common for mid level areas -> 3 listen
Helm of the Bat, extremely common item, even in low lvl areas like the ML crypt.  ->+5 listen.

These items add up to a grand total of 48 listen out of the 50 possible cap when all worn/used.  I didn't include the +4 listen cloak or the +4 listen amulet because they are significantly more rare, these are all common drops.  So common, in fact, that my rogue was able to find them all himself by the time he got to lvl 7, just doing regular dungeon runs.  Now compare that to how impossible finding a full kit of stealth gear has become, and it's fairly one-sided.  

You can pump listen up to 48 at lvl 2 without a single skill or feat.  Considering most stealthers take 3 feats and invest a small fortune in gear/skill points, not only is your detector going to win every time, but you are going to have lvl 2 non-detectors outclassing lvl 10-15 sneaks who focus entirely on stealth. Adding more listen gear would not even help at this point, as all the things above are easier to get (And MUCH cheaper) than bothering to enchant an item for it.

PS - That 48 listen does not count the eventual 20 roll (since detect is done 4x/second in active detect mode).  So you need 68 Move Silently if you want to beat a geared out lvl 2 detector.  God help you if they actually take listen skills/feats, because it only goes up from there.  I know there are not lvl 2's walking around with this kind of gear, but they definitely have it before lvl 10, when most sneaks finally get enough skill to start even attempting to hide.  Add that to how often characters are twinked by high level ooc buddies, and stealth has become largely a joke among new characters these days.  It's not even worth trying to do anymore for the most part, except to use against NPCs for ninjalooting.

[FullMoon]

I think the suggestion has merit. No sense opening up the stealther vs detector debate again. The staff are well aware of the imbalance and I think the onus is on us to make new stealth items that would be chaeper so they actually come up on the loot tables.

And I have actually had the experience of a level 2 detecting my focused stealther.

One question. Why is " I can hide from anyone " god mode but " No one can hide from me" isn't ?

[Avatar6666]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

Seeing as with the current gear set up, it's possible for just about anyone to get over 40 listen with zero points in the skill, I'd say that's really uncalled for.

Amplify scrolls, sold in stores for very cheap -> 20 listen.
C/C scrolls AND potions, cheap, found in lowbie areas and sold in stores -> 10 listen.
Gold Jackal Ring, fairly common drop from mid level areas, -> 5 listen x 2 slots.
Necklace of Ears, very common for mid level areas -> 3 listen
Helm of the Bat, extremely common item, even in low lvl areas like the ML crypt.  ->+5 listen.

These items add up to a grand total of 48 listen out of the 50 possible cap when all worn/used.  I didn't include the +4 listen cloak or the +4 listen amulet because they are significantly more rare, these are all common drops.  So common, in fact, that my rogue was able to find them all himself by the time he got to lvl 7, just doing regular dungeon runs.  Now compare that to how impossible finding a full kit of stealth gear has become, and it's fairly one-sided.  

You can pump listen up to 48 at lvl 2 without a single skill or feat.  Considering most stealthers take 3 feats and invest a small fortune in gear/skill points, not only is your detector going to win every time, but you are going to have lvl 2 non-detectors outclassing lvl 10-15 sneaks who focus entirely on stealth. Adding more listen gear would not even help at this point, as all the things above are easier to get (And MUCH cheaper) than bothering to enchant an item for it.

PS - That 48 listen does not count the eventual 20 roll (since detect is done 4x/second in active detect mode).  So you need 68 Move Silently if you want to beat a geared out lvl 2 detector.  God help you if they actually take listen skills/feats, because it only goes up from there.  I know there are not lvl 2's walking around with this kind of gear, but they definitely have it before lvl 10, when most sneaks finally get enough skill to start even attempting to hide.  Add that to how often characters are twinked by high level ooc buddies, and stealth has become largely a joke among new characters these days.  It's not even worth trying to do anymore for the most part, except to use against NPCs for ninjalooting.

Not to mention that a stealther needs to work on two skills, Like Move silently and hide and a detector works on one skill only. Seems a bit unfair to me but this would help. Plus there are now weapons out there that are rare that help you detect stealthers.

[Troukk]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

Seeing as with the current gear set up, it's possible for just about anyone to get over 40 listen with zero points in the skill, I'd say that's really uncalled for.

Amplify scrolls, sold in stores for very cheap -> 20 listen.
C/C scrolls AND potions, cheap, found in lowbie areas and sold in stores -> 10 listen.
Gold Jackal Ring, fairly common drop from mid level areas, -> 5 listen x 2 slots.
Necklace of Ears, very common for mid level areas -> 3 listen
Helm of the Bat, extremely common item, even in low lvl areas like the ML crypt.  ->+5 listen.

These items add up to a grand total of 48 listen out of the 50 possible cap when all worn/used.  I didn't include the +4 listen cloak or the +4 listen amulet because they are significantly more rare, these are all common drops.  So common, in fact, that my rogue was able to find them all himself by the time he got to lvl 7, just doing regular dungeon runs.  Now compare that to how impossible finding a full kit of stealth gear has become, and it's fairly one-sided.  

You can pump listen up to 48 at lvl 2 without a single skill or feat.  Considering most stealthers take 3 feats and invest a small fortune in gear/skill points, not only is your detector going to win every time, but you are going to have lvl 2 non-detectors outclassing lvl 10-15 sneaks who focus entirely on stealth. Adding more listen gear would not even help at this point, as all the things above are easier to get (And MUCH cheaper) than bothering to enchant an item for it.

PS - That 48 listen does not count the eventual 20 roll (since detect is done 4x/second in active detect mode).  So you need 68 Move Silently if you want to beat a geared out lvl 2 detector.  God help you if they actually take listen skills/feats, because it only goes up from there.  I know there are not lvl 2's walking around with this kind of gear, but they definitely have it before lvl 10, when most sneaks finally get enough skill to start even attempting to hide.  Add that to how often characters are twinked by high level ooc buddies, and stealth has become largely a joke among new characters these days.  It's not even worth trying to do anymore for the most part, except to use against NPCs for ninjalooting.

I'm too lazy to do the math, but there is two things you should take into consideration:

First: Since detection is a passive thing, and you never truly know when someone will sneak on you, putting consumables there isn't really accurate. I don't think anyone will be blowing consumables all the time on their character to keep a decent detection on. This is especially true with consumables that last rounds and not turns or hours. On that note, I'd consider the helm of the bat a consumable, because it's so freaking hideous that no self respecting roleplayer will wear it except when actively trying to find a sneaker.

Second: Sneaking/Detection has bonuses/nerfs that promote proper sneaking and proper detection. For instance, if the detector is moving, his detection is nerfed. If the stealther is standing still his stealth is bonused. During the night stealth is easier, detection is crappy if you are fighting or turning your back to the stealther... Also, detection has a range, and in the case of listen is a VERY limited range (not to mention listen is completely unable to detect a target standing still). All of this promotes that if a detector is being silly and doing stuff and a sneaker is being careful (standing on the back of the detector, keeping his distance, stealthing after dark, standing still whenever possible, etc...) the chances of success of stealther increase dramatically.

[Avatar6666]

I only like it if there is equal enchanted gear with boons to detection skills.

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

Seeing as with the current gear set up, it's possible for just about anyone to get over 40 listen with zero points in the skill, I'd say that's really uncalled for.

Amplify scrolls, sold in stores for very cheap -> 20 listen.
C/C scrolls AND potions, cheap, found in lowbie areas and sold in stores -> 10 listen.
Gold Jackal Ring, fairly common drop from mid level areas, -> 5 listen x 2 slots.
Necklace of Ears, very common for mid level areas -> 3 listen
Helm of the Bat, extremely common item, even in low lvl areas like the ML crypt.  ->+5 listen.

These items add up to a grand total of 48 listen out of the 50 possible cap when all worn/used.  I didn't include the +4 listen cloak or the +4 listen amulet because they are significantly more rare, these are all common drops.  So common, in fact, that my rogue was able to find them all himself by the time he got to lvl 7, just doing regular dungeon runs.  Now compare that to how impossible finding a full kit of stealth gear has become, and it's fairly one-sided.  

You can pump listen up to 48 at lvl 2 without a single skill or feat.  Considering most stealthers take 3 feats and invest a small fortune in gear/skill points, not only is your detector going to win every time, but you are going to have lvl 2 non-detectors outclassing lvl 10-15 sneaks who focus entirely on stealth. Adding more listen gear would not even help at this point, as all the things above are easier to get (And MUCH cheaper) than bothering to enchant an item for it.

PS - That 48 listen does not count the eventual 20 roll (since detect is done 4x/second in active detect mode).  So you need 68 Move Silently if you want to beat a geared out lvl 2 detector.  God help you if they actually take listen skills/feats, because it only goes up from there.  I know there are not lvl 2's walking around with this kind of gear, but they definitely have it before lvl 10, when most sneaks finally get enough skill to start even attempting to hide.  Add that to how often characters are twinked by high level ooc buddies, and stealth has become largely a joke among new characters these days.  It's not even worth trying to do anymore for the most part, except to use against NPCs for ninjalooting.

I'm too lazy to do the math, but there is two things you should take into consideration:

First: Since detection is a passive thing, and you never truly know when someone will sneak on you, putting consumables there isn't really accurate. I don't think anyone will be blowing consumables all the time on their character to keep a decent detection on. This is especially true with consumables that last rounds and not turns or hours. On that note, I'd consider the helm of the bat a consumable, because it's so freaking hideous that no self respecting roleplayer will wear it except when actively trying to find a sneaker.

Second: Sneaking/Detection has bonuses/nerfs that promote proper sneaking and proper detection. For instance, if the detector is moving, his detection is nerfed. If the stealther is standing still his stealth is bonused. During the night stealth is easier, detection is crappy if you are fighting or turning your back to the stealther... Also, detection has a range, and in the case of listen is a VERY limited range (not to mention listen is completely unable to detect a target standing still). All of this promotes that if a detector is being silly and doing stuff and a sneaker is being careful (standing on the back of the detector, keeping his distance, stealthing after dark, standing still whenever possible, etc...) the chances of success of stealther increase dramatically.

Some of that is very true but the bonus that detectors gets way over wiegh the sneakers now. Just to many items out thier right now that help the detector. A detector can get into the high 80+ and the sneaker will not get that high. To many items stack for the detector. If it was an even game I would say your right. However it is hard as you know what to do any kind of sneaking vs a player anymore.
The number do stack up and there are way more detector numbers then stealth number and that is why I like this idea.

[edarsenik]

Personally, I think it only makes sense that detectors would have a bit of an advantage. Sneaking in real life is hard as hell.

[Dusk]

The Listen example is a bit extreme, as it does require many consumables. I could then argue how often characters go around with True Sight active, but that will just cause another cycle of stealth vs detection debate, which I really do not wish this topic drown out by.

An extra +5 to Hide or Move Silently (as an example, though I would not really ask for more) on enchanted armors will not cause apocalyptic imbalance, that I'm pretty positive about. Again, I just thought it would be nice for stealth-based characters to have some variety with enchanting armor without having to have a spare set of Shadowed Leathers sitting around in their inventory.

[Crimson Shuriken]

I have detection based pcs that would still not break a sweat if there is enchanted stealth gear so I truly don't think it would imbalance anything.
Still puts a large distance between the enchanted and the un-enchanted but that boat has left the pier already.
I still would prefer things like Shadow Armor and Desert Cat belts not be rarer than enchanted gear as it is now.
Not enough gear drops to equip the server's ambitious few who want to stealth against all odds. Thats the imbalance as I see it. That's coming from someone with two fully max equipped stealth PCs in my vault, but who gets asked for help finding it by other players enough to know its damn long odds getting it for them.

[Lucadia]

Right now its possible hit the +50 cap on hide bonus from gear but the same is not true for move silently , and that was including some _very_ rare gear that only be attainable in certain ways.

and please for the love of gods dont offer more detection gear. the detection gear is easy find,cheap and stacks unlike stealth spells .

also remark about sneaking in real life. This game does not emulate real life. If you got skills in the 50's thats coming close to god like status by pnp rules. Demigods, gods, Superman, the eyes of  a hawk to spot things a mile away.

enchanted helm please with +5 move silent , that be worth 7k exp over the +1 saves and 2 deflection they currently offer
 

[Budly]

Just saying, stealth is not as high as listen and spot since the NWN system do not cater to "reality" where you would see a smug halfling walk down the corridor cause he got high stealth. This is why you can see stealthed using True Sight spells and such. The Engine used in NWN is not able to portray people using stealth the way it should be used in my opinion. So I say, its a big sacrifice to have spot and listen higher up then stealth but I take that one over stealthed people everywhere, standing by light sources aside you listening more or less.

[Kendaric]

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

I tend to disagree, a dedicatd detector should always have a chance at beating a dedicated sneaker of course. But if detection always beats stealth, stealth becomes worthless (and unless you're a dedicated stealther, it's pretty much worthless currently).

To be honest though, values in the high 40s or even higher shouldn't exist anyway. Some skill values (not to mention AB and AC) are going through the roof currently and should quite frankly be reduced a tad. But that's another can of worms to open I guess

[Misted_Horror]

As Lucadia and Crimson have said, detection already craps all over stealth. What you're all argueing is that someone decked to the nines in spot gear, should be able to detect someone that dumps 3 feats in it and effectively wears low AC stealth gear to the point that undead below the ML temple could 1v1 them. It's a simple fact that stealthers get the short end of the stick. I don't even play a stealther anymore and detection is easy as balls. Enchanted armour that goes towards Hide/MS (as in both, not just one) would be good, otherwise why have armour that gives +5 MS, when you'd lose the hide equivalent, etc? All it does is make one skill easier to detect against.

Also, to the naysayers that say no to the whole stealth gear enchanting buff because for certain skills it required you to use a lot of consumables... stealthing effectively requires -alot- of consumables and unless you're a druid/ranger most of the durations on those are shortlived. I agree that a purpose-built detector should be able to catch a sneak, but a random joe that managed to drop 20k on a store just to be able to find someone whose dropped -alot- more comparitively on stealth gear not to mention invested in the feats and skillpoints should not be at a disadvantage.

So instead of saying stealth/shadow enchanted gear shouldn't be allowed for balance reasons, I'd suggest actually opening a seperate thread where on maths/facts weigh in on the matter and not just one uninformed joe vs another.

[The time is now 4 AM]

As Lucadia and Crimson have said, detection already craps all over stealth. What you're all argueing is that someone decked to the nines in spot gear, should be able to detect someone that dumps 3 feats in it and effectively wears low AC stealth gear to the point that undead below the ML temple could 1v1 them. It's a simple fact that stealthers get the short end of the stick. I don't even play a stealther anymore and detection is easy as balls. Enchanted armour that goes towards Hide/MS (as in both, not just one) would be good, otherwise why have armour that gives +5 MS, when you'd lose the hide equivalent, etc? All it does is make one skill easier to detect against.

Also, to the naysayers that say no to the whole stealth gear enchanting buff because for certain skills it required you to use a lot of consumables... stealthing effectively requires -alot- of consumables and unless you're a druid/ranger most of the durations on those are shortlived. I agree that a purpose-built detector should be able to catch a sneak, but a random joe that managed to drop 20k on a store just to be able to find someone whose dropped -alot- more comparitively on stealth gear not to mention invested in the feats and skillpoints should not be at a disadvantage.

this.

[Budly]

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

I tend to disagree, a dedicatd detector should always have a chance at beating a dedicated sneaker of course. But if detection always beats stealth, stealth becomes worthless (and unless you're a dedicated stealther, it's pretty much worthless currently).

To be honest though, values in the high 40s or even higher shouldn't exist anyway. Some skill values (not to mention AB and AC) are going through the roof currently and should quite frankly be reduced a tad. But that's another can of worms to open I guess

Rock beats scissors I guess. Right?

[The time is now 4 AM]

A dedicated detector should always beat a dedicated sneaker, otherwise sneaking becomes godmode.

I tend to disagree, a dedicatd detector should always have a chance at beating a dedicated sneaker of course. But if detection always beats stealth, stealth becomes worthless (and unless you're a dedicated stealther, it's pretty much worthless currently).

To be honest though, values in the high 40s or even higher shouldn't exist anyway. Some skill values (not to mention AB and AC) are going through the roof currently and should quite frankly be reduced a tad. But that's another can of worms to open I guess

Rock beats scissors I guess. Right?

 yes and don't we all know:
"Rock is overpowered, paper is just about right" - Scissors