The Drain - Long Anticipated Updates?

[dutchy]

then something goes wrong in the translation, cause i am trying to reply properly here with valid points.

*sighs*

[Elfric]

Please don't move your outcasts to Port. Actually, let me reword that - do, but under the understanding that most calibans would be unwelcomed, regarded as circus freaks at best. The only reason calibans have been tolerated by players there is because of a 21st century mindset among PCs there and elsewhere.

Tolerate the freak, but shun it's love!

[Miuo]

On the raising, iv seen a few Caliban Halites in the past and could have such set up there, since they take a oath to heal -All- in need. Unless that person is actively trying to kill said person. .So a Halite caliban in grungy robes  near one of the little hut tents seems plausible. Of course their actions not entirely selfish as they make a good amount of gold from such. Which the boss man may take a cut of.

The drain does have a large population of NPC calibans but as pointed out they arnt the only dwellers there. Several factions have come and gone, all matter of other outcasts set up shop and live there from time to time. In all this im quite positive things would get left behind. Current residence may of gained knowledge or trade skills, etc. Yes most are still probably dumb as a doorknob but as we've seen from the banker, merchant, Doc some can rise up to moderate intelligence and offer something more to the other residence, in which they make a buck of.

Because these trades are often unrivaled i can see things costing a tad more then the norm.

[Endlessorrow]

  The Ezrite npc Sentre/priest has raised my mages familiar and healed her before. When she was were rat hunting even though she has a 2765 ocr... Probably not realistic true. There is much to be said for finding workarounds to these problems though. Rather than just trying to do things the way other characters have learned to. That said I stoped playing my Caliban for a couple of reasons. Cheifly because I ddidn't have access to as many opportunities. And was repeatedly faced with pvp way out of my level and gear range.

[Legion XXI]

Please don't move your outcasts to Port. Actually, let me reword that - do, but under the understanding that most calibans would be unwelcomed, regarded as circus freaks at best. The only reason calibans have been tolerated by players there is because of a 21st century mindset among PCs there and elsewhere.

   You know, this is actually one of the reasons I don't much play my tiefling.  I am a high enough level that I no longer get RP XP down in the Drain. (I get it in the outskirts, funny enough, due to the presence of higher level players still hanging around there.)  I'm also outgrowing all the spawns Barovia has to offer, and if it were any other character, I'd have moved out of the domain already.  The issue is that I feel awkward walking through the Mist Camp or Port, because even though the NPCs don't attack, you know that you'd be unwelcome there and it's best not to loiter, yet I really don't have many places to be.  Also, side note, hanging out in the Black Market forces you to make disease saves quite often, it's a slight deterrent for people wanting to RP down there.  (Though easily fixed in one of the Hospices topside)

   At any rate, I guess my point here is that maybe once a few more outcasts hit a decent level, we can group up and move out of the drain to the black market or something.  While the drain is a cool place with interesting story around it, it's just not really the place to be for mid level outcasts who are looking to advance further.  You could set up the same kind of RP in port, I think.  The population of that city does not want you, and while they won't turn hostile and attack you upon seeing you, in all likelihood they'd try and drive you away or into the sewer.  So you've got your oppression, desperation, and grounds to build a story in a new area.

[Feronius]

I think you're right Dutchy, we seem to be on different planes. But here's a final attempt to make you understand my point of view.

Your main point argues that outcasts should have inconvenient OoC mechanics to represent the harsh IC circumstances they live in.
Do you realise how completely unrelated those two things are (IC vs. OoC) and how weird that arguement is when I write it out like this?
(If not, then I don't know how else to explain it to you. And that means we are probably best off to just agree to disagree.)



And I don't think I've ever been to the Black Market before, my caliban isn't the level to head over there yet. But what features does that area have? Doesn't that still mean you're constantly compromising your RP and walking into fancy establishments in the noble districts as a freak or other outcast, just because there isn't a more suitable alternative. It sounds like the same case of "dodging the real issue" as the Drain has, except that you have to go out of your way less as a player.
Shorter distances, but the same amount of cheesing. (Because isn't that effectively what caliban are forced to do? Cheesing to raise dead characters, level a craft, etc.)

[dutchy]

then the problem i think is the difrance in seeing the difrrance with ic and ooc.

i see it as hmmm

ooc implements such as which you are requesting need an ic reason for beeing there.

we cant have a unicorn in the outskirts cause it looks cool it needs an ic reason for being there  (was a extreme example)

[Miuo]

The issue becomes though there is only a sliver of the population Vallaki sees, so more often then not your likely to spend a great many hours sitting idle there. Waiting for people to come to Port, and even longer for a "Outcast" type to come there and enter the black market and stay there for rp long enough to build up a group. One of the issues being the trip and the wasted time/gold just trying to find rp.

Sadly as well even if you do drum up interest anyone who makes a new char for such gets screwed over because they are so low level they are likely to die from cold dmg just trying to travel out that way. Not to mention, Wolves, Werewolves, Wolfweres, Wereraven, Ghostly deers, wolves, Orges. And then the cost of the caravans.

If a new char manages to get to port, they are then stuck at their level because there is really nothing for them to hunt and 100gp a trip by caravan is alot for a new char as well.

This is a common occurrence on nearly every server. The main starting area will forever be the most popular spot on a server. Because it is where people start, build the base for their chars stories and where all the new blood continues to come in. A way to help draw people away from such would be, the other areas have to offer something that out weighs the desire to stay. Such as drain homes, that act like the hotels and such but operate on a "Monthly" ownership and cost quite a bit cheaper then a governors rooms. But have nearly the same amenities (just not the fancy expensive type. Like a old rusty bath tub, raggedy sheets on the bed. And a bookshelf filled with moldy, mostly ruined books). And other such things that give people a reason to stay. Perhaps even choose a select few doors in the slum district that can be for dynamic use for a few months. By this i mean decide how large the inside will be, create the lay out but keep it void of placeables. And by good reason and request and some form of payment, hand the blank template off with a set amount of rules. Such as only 100 placeables per floor or some such and let them build their "temp" faction base to use for rp. And then after a month or two revist the the request. Has the faction died out, can they make the next payment, is it no longer being use? And go from there. Allowing players to have some form of control over their rented area can be a huge draw for people.  Not to mention it gives the area a much more diverse dynamic when different groups come and go.

then the problem i think is the difrance in seeing the difrrance with ic and ooc.

i see it as hmmm

ooc implements such as which you are requesting need an ic reason for beeing there.

we cant have a unicorn in the outskirts cause it looks cool it needs an ic reason for being there  (was a extreme example)

Someone caught it in Hazlan and brought it here to unleash onto the locals and send them fleeing in terror? (Last time i was in Hazlan there was evil black unicorns.)

[Feronius]

Raise Dead - An NPC (or update to Mad Dok Rattok) to bring back the dead, being forced to visit the Outskirts is an immersion breaker.

The Door - Shorten the conversation, one click should suffice, especially when it laggs it takes up to 10 seconds just to get in.

Storage Area - A way for outcasts to store items, right now the only option for outcasts is Dementlieu, which is extremely out of the way.

Merchants - Crawler is missing, may be a bug, but either a new vendor or his return (possibly with an updated inventory) are needed.
(Just to clarify, an updated inventory refers to things such as flint and steel, bedrolls, mining equipment and so on. Nothing too fancy.)

I think we should get back to those four points and leave black unicorns for what they are.

And I'm not sure how much of an IC reason you want to have for having storage areas. Likewise for the other suggestions.
Outcasts need food supplies, they trade a lot, they have plenty of room. It only seems natural they offer storage in exchange for coin.
Likewise for an IC reason beyond raising the dead. Isn't there bound to be some shady necromancy type down there that offers it?

[Paragonville]

Raise Dead - An NPC (or update to Mad Dok Rattok) to bring back the dead, being forced to visit the Outskirts is an immersion breaker.

The Door - Shorten the conversation, one click should suffice, especially when it laggs it takes up to 10 seconds just to get in.

Storage Area - A way for outcasts to store items, right now the only option for outcasts is Dementlieu, which is extremely out of the way.

Merchants - Crawler is missing, may be a bug, but either a new vendor or his return (possibly with an updated inventory) are needed.
(Just to clarify, an updated inventory refers to things such as flint and steel, bedrolls, mining equipment and so on. Nothing too fancy.)

I think we should get back to those four points and leave black unicorns for what they are.

And I'm not sure how much of an IC reason you want to have for having storage areas. Likewise for the other suggestions.
Outcasts need food supplies, they trade a lot, they have plenty of room. It only seems natural they offer storage in exchange for coin.
Likewise for an IC reason beyond raising the dead. Isn't there bound to be some shady necromancy type down there that offers it?

Better yet, could use a Halite NPC at some secluded part of the Drain.  Necromancy is way too much of a go-to thing for "dark" places.  Halites are considered witches (and called witches), and are shunned by Barovians.  Good spot for a halite NPC.

[Feronius]

Better yet, could use a Halite NPC at some secluded part of the Drain.  Necromancy is way too much of a go-to thing for "dark" places.  Halites are considered witches (and called witches), and are shunned by Barovians.  Good spot for a halite NPC.

There you go, seems to fit in perfectly to me. Will edit it into the original post's suggestion.

[Legion XXI]

And I don't think I've ever been to the Black Market before, my caliban isn't the level to head over there yet. But what features does that area have? Doesn't that still mean you're constantly compromising your RP and walking into fancy establishments in the noble districts as a freak or other outcast, just because there isn't a more suitable alternative. It sounds like the same case of "dodging the real issue" as the Drain has, except that you have to go out of your way less as a player.
Shorter distances, but the same amount of cheesing. (Because isn't that effectively what caliban are forced to do? Cheesing to raise dead characters, level a craft, etc.)

   Actually, the Black Market has a tavern area and about 6 merchants that sell various goods.  One even sells "Lesser Mist Orbs" for around 1.7k - 2k, depending on appraise checks.  For those not familiar with the item, it has 1 use of "Raise Dead".  I'm not sure what you mean by "dodging the issue", as I'm not suggesting we go to any kind of fancy establishments at all.  I'm saying we could use the Market as a higher level staging ground to go hit the better dungeons, contact the merchant factions around the area that sell higher end gear, hire ourselves out for shady work...ect.  What I'm saying is that you can't just sit in barovia forever, because there is a certain ceiling there that you will reach and be unable to advance in levels/opportunities for your character.  The Black Market is closer to all the mid-high level domains, and is just a more time-effective staging ground for those who can base themselves there.

[Feronius]

What I meant with the dodging the issue is exactly that. Finding inconvenient workarounds and not fixing the problem.

Spoiler: show

I was refering to the crafting stations and storage (and other features) in the Port, they're in easier to reach places, but it still doesn't make a lot of sense to use them when you're a monstrous caliban or wanted outcast. It's the same kind of "dodging the issue" as is done Barovia. You have places to craft or store items, but even if your character wouldn't realistically be found dead there (or risk ending up dead when going there, which is more often the case), you still have to compromise because there's no alternative place to perform that craft or store your items. Despite the funny looks these elves give you and the screams of noblewoman.

I agree that the black market sounds like a more suitable place to hang out for higher level outcasts with a desire to dungeon.
But I don't think I understand what that has to do with a thread discussing some long anticipated changes to the Drain area?
Unless you were proposing for the outcasts to simply move to the black market instead, but that seems like something for a new thread.
(The proximity of dungeons is neat, but even if I were to be a higher level, it wouldn't motivate me to go there. I'm here mainly to RP.)

[Apocrypha]

I think that making big changes to any part of the module to get players to go there is missing the mark.

If a group of Calibans spent time in the Drain, and really invested themselves in it, that's way more justifiable of volunteer development efforts, just speaking from experience.

I'd sure hate for charity hours going into something that people didn't utilize, and the Drain and Calibans have probably been the shakiest and most intermittent of all factions...

I liked the Old Drain the best, Hoth's bar had tons of tables and just seemed darker than the current "Bar," which is an area that people just run through anyway.

[ethinos]

I looked through some older threads I participated in years ago about this very subject and am reminded of something. In the Vallaki general area, a caliban and outcast can find stations for every craft with the exceptions of enchanting and leatherworking. (My dwarf often goes from Dvergeheim to Deganwy to do the smithing and woodworking necessary to make weapons, so I don't see that being an OOC hindrance, especially since he often travels though the area after dark.) There is no way enchanting will ever be viable in the Drain. However, considering leathermaking is a very basic craft that even outcasts should be able to do, I wouldn't mind seeing a leatherworking station setup in the Drain. The smell of urine and brains from tanning hides would be very appropriate for the area. Leatherworking is also a skill that shady, low tech people would also highly value.

Shortening the open door script would be nice. Waiting for the door to open up has gotten folks in trouble before if they pulled some aggro mobs after them.

[Avatar6666]

I think that making big changes to any part of the module to get players to go there is missing the mark.

If a group of Calibans spent time in the Drain, and really invested themselves in it, that's way more justifiable of volunteer development efforts, just speaking from experience.

I'd sure hate for charity hours going into something that people didn't utilize, and the Drain and Calibans have probably been the shakiest and most intermittent of all factions...

I liked the Old Drain the best, Hoth's bar had tons of tables and just seemed darker than the current "Bar," which is an area that people just run through anyway.

Yet the DM's and Builders did this to the outskirts to stop having higher level players from hanging around. I do not see an issue with it. Might actually be fun.

[Feronius]

I think the horrible inconvenience and lack of support the outcasts have suffered is part of the reason why it's activity tends to be shaky and come in waves, people get fed up with having to go out of their way so much to just RP. Which is a shame, because the outcast RP has a wonderful vibe that adds a lot to the overall immersion of the server, in my eyes. And if you look at the actual numbers, there have been times where the Drain had far more solid factions (membership and activity wise) than some of the surface groups with far more convenient locations and way more features at their disposal. With all due respect to the development team and other areas of the server, but I think the outcasts have long anticipated and well earned the right to at least be able to do what everyone else on the server already takes for granted. Having a place to store items, being able to raise the dead without compromising their RP, being able to buy a crowbar in the shadiest place of Vallaki?

Additional things such as passive jobs, bounties and crafting stations are also seen as standard by everyone else, but alright, let's leave those as luxury needs for now then.
But if you're comparing player investments I'm pretty sure the Drain isn't even close to the bottom of that list. But relatively near the bottom in terms of granted development efforts.
I'm purposely refraining from naming any factions or pointing out examples, all I'm saying is that it's about time the outcasts get a bit of encouragement coming their way.



Besides, read over the four suggestions in the original post guys. They're very minor requests, it's nothing beyond basic stuff, that is also useable by everyone on the server.
Everyone seems to treat it as if there's a specific faction requesting a palace to be build for them. This is just a poke about an area that's long overdue for a small update.

[Miuo]

Id also like to see more disturbing materials made available. Such as Flesh from the playable races put onto npcs, for clothing/leather armor, helms, cloak, gloves, boots. With appropriate bonuses added. Unsure what would be appropriate for such though. Possibly gotten via pit fights, that require a costly buy in and having to kill random race spawn. For a chance at getting some sort of flesh from them. Even making two levels, one low end weaker one for the drain that gives lesser forms of such items and one for the black market to cater to higher levels.

Also, while the four points are good discussion points the suggestions from others are equally valuable as they are ways to achieve higher traffic and lasting interest in the area you brought up as well as a more level appropriate area for the same chars when they reach the max level for barovian areas.

Raise Dead - Sufficient response given

The Door - Shorten it down to [Opens the peep hole and check who is there], and have it do a quick check, resulting in. [Door Opens], [Peep hole is closed because the guard cant see anyone there] (for people invis knocking), [He roars threw the peep hole, telling the person to flee before he comes out and chops them up for dinner].

Storage Area - I do not really care if there was one, or wasnt. But from the calibans and outsiders mentality im unsure if they would even trust someone with their items or gold. But because we can actually hide gold, or goods behind some bricks away from the main parts of the drain, the bank and storage may be needed.

Merchants - As pointed out he is likely missing for various reasons but because we are having stability issues none have been able to replace. But i think the one merchant is fine as is.

[Troukk]

I think that making big changes to any part of the module to get players to go there is missing the mark.

If a group of Calibans spent time in the Drain, and really invested themselves in it, that's way more justifiable of volunteer development efforts, just speaking from experience.

I'd sure hate for charity hours going into something that people didn't utilize, and the Drain and Calibans have probably been the shakiest and most intermittent of all factions...

I liked the Old Drain the best, Hoth's bar had tons of tables and just seemed darker than the current "Bar," which is an area that people just run through anyway.

I agree with this. As long as it stays true to the lore, development should follow the players, not the other way around.

[Miuo]

This rarely seems to occur, it would be quite easy for players to alter several areas and things in the world around them. Yet these changes dont seem to happen specially when it serves only a few select chars.

Players could quite easily take over abandoned locations such as the fishery, abandoned hospice, the old inn, a sewer pipe and alter it to their desire save for suddenly erecting a keep or a strong hold. But the general inside, such as cleaning it up, barricading the door, bringing in cages, repairing cells, bringing in simple furniture, setting up craft areas etc. These are all things that players could easily do and with in reason to the places around the. Even in the outskirts, erecting a simple tent structure to shelter ones wares from the weather. Or a cabin deep in the woods, or take over a cave and add some form of door to bar the entrance once you killed all its original residence.

I can see why this isnt allowed because every char and their alt would suddenly start erecting a cabin here, a cabin there, taking over "spooky abandoned" locations and turning them into comfortable homes and such.

It would be quite nice if there was some sort of method or procedure and form of application to allow this. Of course keeping it with in acceptable limits and not letting it get to crazy. But i dont see it being allowed, or it becoming allowed for us to change existing location. Will remain in Dev hands alone :3

[Feronius]

I agree with this. As long as it stays true to the lore, development should follow the players, not the other way around.

I'm not disagreeing with that statement, but if you were to stay true to that thought, then the Drain has long earned those basic updates.

It has been unchanged for years(?), despite both the Cult, Cellar Dwellers and several other groups bringing it to life time and time again.
Still it misses some of the more basic features, despite having frequently had over half a dozen of players online at once during those periods.
There have been several periods in the past where the Drain had more trespassers on a daily basis than the Lady's Rest Inn in the outskirts.

[Troukk]

This rarely seems to occur, it would be quite easy for players to alter several areas and things in the world around them. Yet these changes dont seem to happen specially when it serves only a few select chars.

Players could quite easily take over abandoned locations such as the fishery, abandoned hospice, the old inn, a sewer pipe and alter it to their desire save for suddenly erecting a keep or a strong hold. But the general inside, such as cleaning it up, barricading the door, bringing in cages, repairing cells, bringing in simple furniture, setting up craft areas etc. These are all things that players could easily do and with in reason to the places around the. Even in the outskirts, erecting a simple tent structure to shelter ones wares from the weather. Or a cabin deep in the woods, or take over a cave and add some form of door to bar the entrance once you killed all its original residence.

I can see why this isnt allowed because every char and their alt would suddenly start erecting a cabin here, a cabin there, taking over "spooky abandoned" locations and turning them into comfortable homes and such.

It would be quite nice if there was some sort of method or procedure and form of application to allow this. Of course keeping it with in acceptable limits and not letting it get to crazy. But i dont see it being allowed, or it becoming allowed for us to change existing location. Will remain in Dev hands alone :3

There is no formal procedure. But the devs and the DMs are not blind. If they see a player created faction grow, gather people and generate roleplay they will more than likely support you sooner or later.

To name some recent examples:

- The 4th sect Ezrites
- The Nerull Cult

Both of those factions started as player initiatives, and once they were consolidated, the DMs / Devs came and spiced them up with faction areas / forums / storyline support, etc.

Now the Drain is a different matter because it's a more open area and not formally a faction (at least not now, I think it used to be a faction in it's beginnings), but the concept still applies. Get some regular residents there for a decent period of time, generate positive roleplay experiences, and sooner than you think the Devs and DM team will gladly help out.

[dutchy]

snippppppppppppp

zeklos keep fourth sect?

also snippppppp

the core of this topic as i understand it.
you- think these are basic additions that are earned already  (which with the raise dead thing im still on the fence but i do somewhat agree)
others- don't see that these simple additions should be there cause they do not agree it is a simple and basic thing to have.


thats what your up against in this topic, now with all respect, if you cant win over most in this topic in the  next few posts how would you win over the dev team?


ps/ the raise dead thing seems like a nice solution with some dark messiah fella then again i fear it should get restricted to evil alighments only.

[Feronius]

The Drain is a public area, not a faction, it has even housed several PC factions at once before. It's an underdevelopped social hub.
This is regarding the entire outcast population, everyone with an OCR above a certain point. Not any privilege for a small group of PCs.

And yes, I would say a storage area, the ability to raise the dead and basic merchants are mechanics that are as basic as it gets.
You would think that after all these years the Drain is at least self-sufficient by now. Aren't outcasts supposed to be self-sufficient?



I am going to assume the development team sees it as it is, instead of argueing "It's supposed to be hard" against OoC basic features with unrelated IC reasoning.
(For example, what does being shunned on the surface by locals have anything to do with not being able to create a storage area underground for outcasts?)

[dutchy]

true its a public area but it is also meant somewhat to be a faction base for anything caliban related, yes those factions come and go but the drain is always the starting point for said factions.

ive given it some more thought and the raise dead issue i side with you on now, if the players indeed can get raised down there both caliban and outcasts (and those hunted by the good players such as example janos's gang) they will always be unseen instead of entering some temple with no real reason but a resurection.
and it might keep the outcasts a little more out of sight.

but if storage was such a minor and simple thing why doesnt every place and town have them?

vallaki and the port has it, beside that no other place has it, so why have 2 storage systems in 1 area? (and no that they are outcasts is not an acceptable awnser)