The Drain - Long Anticipated Updates?

[Feronius]

Yes, I do realise server stability is the main priority right now and I fully understand that goes before all else.
That said, as far as I know area changes are generally done by several different people in the devteam as well.

The Drain has had some long anticipated updates, complaints that have been here forever and are long overdue.
So I figured it was time to write a brief, to the point, suggestion thread listing the most urgently needed changes.



Raise Dead - An NPC to bring back the dead, possibly a Halite (Halan?) witch, being forced to visit the outskirts is an immersion breaker.

The Door - Shorten the conversation, one click should suffice, especially when it laggs it takes up to 10 seconds just to get in.

Storage Area - A way for outcasts to store items, right now the only option for outcasts is Dementlieu, which is extremely out of the way.



Additional Suggestions, Low Priority / Luxuries

Spoiler: show

Passive Jobs - Just like the courier job, have Hoth hiring people as a smuggler / supplier or to work in his bar for a meagre daily wage.

Bounties - Allow outcasts to turn in some of the smaller bounties, like those found in the sewers, at one of the NPCs in the Drain.

Crafting Stations - Alchemy, Boiling, Curing and Leatherworking stations. Those crafts make a lot of sense to have down in the Drain.

Merchants - Not urgent, but an update to Crawler's inventory with basic wares such as tents or paper may be appreciated. Or other vendors.
(One addition that I would like to see is a vendor that sells dye or having one of those tailoring dummies placed down in the back of the Drain.)

Those seem to be the most desired and longest anticipated upgrades to the Drain, some of them long overdue and strongly desired.
Nothing fancy, no luxuries, just a summary of some pretty basic features that outcasts have been asking for, for a very long time.
(This is not a request related to PC factions. Right now outcasts are forced to spend half their online time cheesing and finding workarounds.)

[dutchy]

The drain does not need storage nor crafting they are outcasts and if they have  acces to what everyone road has then they do not and will not be and feel like outcasts

The merchant I agree with

Mad doc raising. Hmm yes and no

[Feronius]

The drain does not need storage nor crafting they are outcasts and if they have  acces to what everyone road has then they do not and will not be and feel like outcasts

How does that have anything to do with RPing an outcast? Or even with the RP experience in general. Or are our definitions of RP that far apart?
They wouldn't have storage places of their own down in the Drain? Supplies? Places to stash loot? To skin rats? Arts and crafts are immensely popular down there.

These are basic features everyone on the server has access to, and should have, and not something that defines you as an outcast.
The only thing restricting this will do is make it horribly inconvenient and discouraging to play an outcast from a player (not PC) point of view.
And using the alternatives (Dvergeheim, the Outskirts, Degannwy) are far more detrimental for the outcast RP experience and the overall setting.
(And for some things there are no suitable alternatives present at all on the server. Such as the storage area or a realistic place to raise the dead.)


Can the next person to post please put at least some thought into their reply and not claim it makes for a better RP experience with half the features accessible.
We should opt to remove the rest command as well, since caliban are never truly safe enough to catch a break. Or remove their inventory, as they're supposed to have few possessions.

[Dread]

Can the next person to post please put at least some thought into their reply and not claim it makes for a better RP experience with half the features accessible.

Can YOU try not to be a smartass?

[Feronius]

Can YOU try not to be a smartass?

I will do my utmost best, as soon as people start to post constructively on suggestion threads.
My apologies for adding a hint of sarcasm there, although what you're doing here is equally bad.

I simply want people to add suggestions or comment with things other than "yes, no, yes and no."

[ethinos]

The devs are generally against enlarging the Drain for several reasons. Between Degannwy, the Drain, and Dvergeheim, outcasts already have access to nearly every crafting station and a raise dead NPC. Crawler should be brought back though.

As for storage, I don't see outcasts actually trusting another shady character to store stuff for them.

[FullMoon]

I like all the suggestions. Would also like to see the banker come down to earth, he is charging like 25%+ to take funds, as if Caliban did not have enough obtacles.

On a side note, where do I request to have my Underworld forum access returned ? Mine was removed when I lost my Vardo forum access but I play a tiefling rogue who lives in the Drain .

FullMoon

[Dread]

Can YOU try not to be a smartass?

I will do my utmost best, as soon as people start to post constructively on suggestion threads.
My apologies for adding a hint of sarcasm there, although what you're doing now is equally bad.

I simply want people to add suggestions or comment with things other than "yes, no, yes and no."

Dutchy's post was plenty constructive. Just because it doesn't meet your lofty standards doesn't mean it isn't.

Anyhow, because this is a valid concern, I'll pitch in and offer my advice. First of all, I do think it would be nice if the Drain banker guy offered you the ability to store things for a fee, like the PaL bank does. Additionally, I do think that the Mad Dok could use the ability to raise, or at least perhaps sell these:

An item for Mad Dok's store in the drain.

Item name: Hand-Crank Shocker

Item type: Miscellaneous Medium

Description of the item:
 Un-ID'ed:
A metal box with a pair of three-inch long needles protruding from one side, and a wooden handle with a hand-crank on the opposite side.

 ID'ed:
Originally designed as a torture device, this device is intended to be stabbed into a non-vital area and then cranked slowly to electrocute the victim.  However, if needles are inserted near the heart of a fresh corpse and cranked vigorously, the device can sometimes jump-start the heart.

The innards of the device wear out slowly with standard use.  It was never designed to hold up to vigorous cranking and will often break after one attempt at resuscitation.

Statistics:
Single Use: Raise Dead
5 charges/use: Electric Jolt
50 Charges

Total Cost:
4671


Appearance:
iid_midmisc_220

I thought this was a cool idea for an item, one that would most certainly make sense for the setting and would be used all over.

[Feronius]

As for storage, I don't see outcasts actually trusting another shady character to store stuff for them.

They have a bank figure that does just that, for a cut of the profit. They could have the same for storage.

And I'm not talking about enlarging the Drain, please don't, there's plenty of unused space that can be utilised.
There are no less than 3 or 4 empty meeting rooms that are more or less identical with only a few chairs in each.
As well as an empty spacious area with a market stand and plenty of other space available to possibly place NPCs.



In theory we can go to all the named places, even if some are out of way, but that doesn't make it any less immersion breaking or odd.
An example below of a scenario I experienced today, which wasn't a positive RP experience in my eyes, but we had no viable alternative.

Spoiler: show

Today me and another outcast had a glitchy collision in the middle of a fight, that prevent us from getting through a transition. This caused one of us to die, forcing the other to go to the outskirts during the day and turning to a false religion. Or to wait more than an hour IRL (corpsedragging speed, without sidestepping) and risk an almost guaranteed death in the night by the werewolf NPCs to do the same thing. You can guess which option we went for.
We had hardly even left of the loading screen yet (or entered view, still standing behind a wall) and people started buffing themselves to PvP against us when we stepped out of the Morninglord sanctuary. We made it back eventually, but this is just one of the many examples where outcasts compromise, take unneccesary risks and make unrealistic choices (the only reasonable one there was), just to be able to play the game. (Going to Dvergeheim would've made even less sense from a character point of view and would've either taken us through the outskirts anyhow or forced us to spend another hour reaching Dvergeheim with a detour.)

Having Mad Dok Rattok sell an item that allows you to raise dead is an idea, it's a pretty neat item concept.
But if 4671 is the total cost I don't think most players will be able to afford it, so it still won't be an option.
(We also don't have passive jobs or bounties available for outcasts to get an easy income. Only ratting.)

While I like the idea, I think the item will just end up being used in dungeon parties, rather than by outcasts.

[Feronius]

On a side note, where do I request to have my Underworld forum access returned ? Mine was removed when I lost my Vardo forum access but I play a tiefling rogue who lives in the Drain .

You can simply PM any of the DMs (I believe) to request forum permission. Or post on the generic request thread.
I know DM Stygian Witch used to be involved with the Underworld a lot and was the contact back in the day.

[ethinos]

We've asked for additional crafting stations in the Drain since crafting came in. They've continually said no. The outcasts aren't organized or well enough equipped to have such, was often the explanation and I sorta agree. (Note that I've played a caliban since I got here in 2007, so I understand.) Personally, I think caliban characters and outcasts should find a new location outside of Vallaki and settle down. Finding a new 'home' was one of the goals of the caliban community years ago.

[Tyras]

Playing an outcast is not for the weak hearted.  There are supposed to be obstacles.  Dutchy is spot on in that outcasts should not have easy access to the same goods and services as those that are acceptable to society.  If they did they'd just be a mirroed society, and that doesn't seem to be the goal with the drain.  Playing one is supposed to be a challenge.  Not impossible, but a challenge.  There are options that outcasts can make use of, but they may involve varied levels of inconvienience.  The life of an outcast is not an easy one.  It could always be worse.  The Vallaki Garda could seal the drain and turn the place into a crematorium where those trapped inside are burned alive and the ones who escaped have to live in the woods with the werewolves.

[APorg]

The Drain has a bank; I don't see why it couldn't have storage. After all, storage also represents an abstraction for the fact that, realistically, characters could own homes and have a place to put their things. Outcasts would find it harder to find a place to store their crap (and therefore it should be more expensive), but it wouldn't be impossible.

[APorg]

The Vallaki Garda could seal the drain and turn the place into a crematorium where those trapped inside are burned alive and the ones who escaped have to live in the woods with the werewolves.

No, they couldn't (See IC.)

[Miuo]

Some of the realistic crafts are small enough to fit in some of the little nooks about, but i do agree the drain shouldn't have access to all the crafting skills right there. Since even locals and top siders dont have them all conveniently in one spot. The ones i can see being there would be leather working, Potion brewing and possibly, though perhaps unlikely alchemy. Since there is nothing in the drains i believe that gives such. The crafts should be limited to what the drain offers. So no forge or smelting area. I believe if they could make weapons and armor they would become a large enough threat to the city, to the point they may be sought out for slaughter. Since someone may get the idea of them building a army down there. And a 8 foot Caliban in full plate, wielding a great sword be pretty freaking terrifying to a local id imagine, even the garda who would possibly be easily cleaved in half by their immense strength.

I did not check last time i was down there, but id like to see the "private" rooms opened up for player use and have a lever inside to lock the door when people gather in there. This gives players a little nook that can be dynamic to each persons need for it. From being a little get away to share a few moments with ones lover. Or a secret meeting spot for some faction hiding in the shadows plotting their next horrid endeavour, casual just meeting up for friends to drink away from the croweds. Or even a treatment room for people to seek out healing (completely selfish desire).

[dutchy]

The drain does not need storage nor crafting they are outcasts and if they have  acces to what everyone road has then they do not and will not be and feel like outcasts

The merchant I agree with

Mad doc raising. Hmm yes and no

thnx seraph.

fine if you do not get the obvious reasons cause you fail to acknowledge another persons viewpoint a debate is not your thing which ive seen on several topics thus i did the post that way, also autocrorrect is a B on a phone but now im on the pc and il happely explain why.

merchant- i mean we all know that the drain needs 1 again simple as that.

storage or crafting- why would they need crafting? they are often not to smart their body parts are not meant for things the regular folks do plus there are enough places to go to already for that where they are accepted.

storage as been said  the caliban do nothing but constantly power struggle among eachother why would they store things? they do not trust eachother they are pretty much savages  and they are outcasts, outcasts do not have the luxery of none outcasts, making it easyer for them to acumelate  everything topsiders have makes 0 sense cause then beside being able to walk above ground during the day they would no longer be feeling they are outcasts.


we call that in the normal tongue taking the easy way


ps/ i do hope your next post will be an actual reply instead of some attempt of a low blow.  (yes i can do that aswell shockingggggggggggg) 

[Feronius]

First off, we're talking about outcasts here. Not just caliban (who also aren't apes, but alright.)
The Drain consists of more than just caliban, including a fair amount of normal human beings.


People seem to confuse IC challenges with OoC inconveniences.
The players who choose to play an outcast still have real lives as well.

These obstacles you speak of aren't supposed to be represented by unrealistic raise dead mechanics.
They're not supposed to be constant compromises to your RP that are only detrimental to the setting.
The difficulty of portraying an outcast is supposed to be that you're not able to safely show your face in public. (Note: Outcast, not caliban or ghoul.)


Can you or Dutchy explain how being forced to travel to Dementlieu to stash some loot makes any sense? Or how it positively adds to the RP.
Or why it makes more sense to reanimate bodies publicly just outside a xenophobic town, instead of in an area filled with shady and witchy types.
And when most of the people in the Drain are human with a normal intelligence, why would they not be able to perform crafting again? Or trade?



I'll agree that crafting isn't really a priority and more of a luxury, so I'm moving it under the spoiler. I think passive jobs might even be a higher priority?
But to explain it to you. A post is not constructive, unless you explain why or offer suggestions, other than stating you're against something. Just because.

[Endlessorrow]

I made a test Caliban with maxed persuade. 12. Cha but feats artistic and skill focused persuade and both of the back ground options giving a bonus.  Ended up 13 persuade at lvl 2 with no gear bonus. She went all through valaki in broad daylight. And could interact with some of the npcs. That's one option.

Another for raising dead is the morning lord sanctuary in the slums. Open day and night with a nearby sewer grate.

Storage.. well none of my characters use storase but I could see the drain money storage Caliban storing gods as well for a fee. Why not.

Crafting..hmm they have the cauldron. Their society is supposed to be primative poor and opressed. But a tanery isnt high tech. A Alchemical lab is though. A smirhy in dvergheim seems close enough. Awood worker in deganawy even closer.

The missing merchant is a pain. But I think he is coming back.

[Feronius]

I'm not sure, but doesn't the NPC in the Slums only heal? It thought he did not raise the dead.

[dutchy]

alright that takes care of crafting.

well yes from on ooc viewpoint of people logging on that do not have the time span of playing like some of us do it is a problem.

but allot of these additions server wide drain, vallaki, the port,you name it,  need to have some IC sense.

and storage how anoying it can be to not have at your dissposal (close by) is a pain ooc but makes sence ic.

the drain boss has changed several times since the drain been added, several factions have did a "hostile" take over aswell, the place should not even have a bank if you ask me cause their society is far from stable or safe to actually make somthing like that work.

beside outcasts should not in normal cases be filthy rich and loaded with good gear, now ofcourse a player always plays a character thats a little difrant then what an npc should be (like barovians who go out at night which isnt normal for a barovian etc) so the majorety of the caliban down there or outcasts shouldnt even have that much stuff to begin with.

now as i said for the raising dead thing i am on the side of yes and no, yes i find it odd to see people going into the ML temple rezz their buddy and walk out cause a guard  might come in or some other rigthious sword wielding punk, on the other side should those in the drain be abe to have such an ability?  what god or faith would it be justefied with?

[Endlessorrow]

Nope he raises dead so dose Sentrie Mugus in the sanctuary of the fith ligt in the noble district. Thogh that would be off limits in the day due to all the guarda.

[Tyras]

IC challenge can be OOC inconvienience.  Just like a game in hard mode.  Why would anybody play a game in hard mode if it makes it more of a pain to play?  It's because of the challenge.  Outcasts have it hard.  They're either physically different and cast out of society because of their intolerance, or maybe they suffer from a bad reputation whether it has been earned or not.  Maybe they have such a loathing for society that they simply seek out places removed from their taint.  They don't have access to the niceities that those in good with society do.  It's part of the experience.  If you want to have an easy time of things, either don't play an outcast or move your outcast to a place like Dementlieu where you can go about crafting or banking with more ease.  Choosing to play an outcast is chosing hard mode.  Outcasts have lives of hardship, and that can't help but to transcend from IC to OOC in terms of accessibility to things like easy banking/storage or crafting.

Certain things are neccessary like access to raising characters in a place where they're not going to be jumped as soon as they stand back up, but luxuries like the safe storage of loot may not be something cast offs have easily on hand.  Smuggling jobs make sense, as would be supplier jobs for contraban.

[Feronius]

Nope he raises dead so dose Sentrie Mugus in the sanctuary of the fith ligt in the noble district. Thogh that would be off limits in the day due to all the guarda.

The Ezra faction also requires you to be set as friend to the faction first. Not to mention the fact Ezrites hate most of the outcasts.
I could swear the sanctuary in the slums used to not be able to raise the dead, but if he can that's a slightly better alternative I guess.
(But regardless, still a lousy choice for an outcast to make. And a way to raise dead in the Drain would still make a ton more sense.)

And how would raising the dead be explained in the Drain? There are plenty of death related religions to pick from. It depends on what NPC they will use.
How is it explained in the Morninglord church? I thought they weren't able to perform such powerful spells lorewise? Let alone use such witchcraft in public.



And sorry, but I'm going to stop responding to your points soon Dutchy. I don't have a clue how you came up with half of this.
You just seem to be looking for excuses against these changes, rather than posting because you have something solid to bring up.
And while you blame me for not reacting to the contents of your posts, you outright ignore any question I bring up in response.

Even if people do have unlimited time to play, that doesn't mean a large portion of it has to be wasted unneccesarily, does it?
Caliban should be poor and stay poor, why? The Barovian population is dirt poor and has a bank? Outlanders do not even have homes.
No banks or storage, because of the distrust? Because the Barovian lower and upper class distrust eachother as well, not to mention outlanders.

And Tyras, play an FPS with the mousepad of your laptop and do the objectives in the most unlogical order. That's your definition of hard mode.

[Dread]

Please don't move your outcasts to Port. Actually, let me reword that - do, but under the understanding that most calibans would be unwelcomed, regarded as circus freaks at best. The only reason calibans have been tolerated by players there is because of a 21st century mindset among PCs there and elsewhere.

[Feronius]

Realistically RPing a caliban in the Port would be a deathwish unless you're above a certain level. (Around 10? I think.)
Realistic meaning you do not wander around in broad daylight with the 21st century mindset Seraphim mentioned.