Languages & PoTM

[Badelaire]

I think it has to do with a desire amongst players to be snarky in-character within the Balok tongue, and those same players get their knickers in a twist whenever Balok is spoken among those not native to Barovia, even when it would make sense for the character to know Balok for one reason or another.

An example of this that I bore witness to was a Richemuloise character knowing Balok; Richemulot is right next to Borca, and the country is more or less a melting pot, so it made sense for the character to know the language, yet in tells the players of Barovian natives pitched a fit, because there was no way that they could have known the language and they're cheesing and blah blah blah blah blah blah...

Not to say there aren't instances of players just making up the knowing of languages sometimes, but I think it's all way more overblown than most players think.

From the way I see people react to non-Barovian Balok speakers and some of the arguments here it seems just that. The desire to be snarky in another tongue like that passive-aggressive emote thread and be beyond reproach because "[Gasp] How do they know Balok? It must be cheesing". If someone decided to call me out when my Richemuloise character speaks Balok (hell, maybe mine's the one being referred to) to primary Balok speakers like any sensible person from a very multi-cultural domain with 14 intelligence would do, I'd ask for their e-mail so I could send them lots of Ravenloft PDF's to read as they evidently don't know all that much about the setting outside of what the server depicts.

Richemulot's probably one of the more accessible places to live in the Core and the spoken tongues are both Mordentish dialects (High is the standard), Balok, Falkovnian and even halfling as there is a larger halfling presence in Richemulot due to the ghettos they set up in the major cities. Richemuloise often use the odd expressive halfling word or phrase in surprise or to curse even if they're not fluent speakers.

Barovia, Borca, Falkvonia, Hazlan, Invidia, Kartakass, Nova Vaasa, Richemulot, Sithicus and Verbrek all have Balok as either a major or minor language so I don't see why it's such a game killer to some that a PC from any of those domains might be able to pick up on Billy Barovian going "[Balok] Iadul outlanders Domn and Domna. Naopte Ziua da nu unu multumesc!" if they have sufficient intelligence and license to know the tongue.

[Sorrow00]

I apologize to all the players an staff of POTM, i didnt intend for this to turn out a big ol nasty argument and bashing thread, i just wasnt sure what the set language or basis on which domains had the specific languages known, the forums arent very organized so i wasnt going to go through the headache of trying to dig through pages apon pages or sections trying to figure out where everything is.

IT also has nothing to do with snarky remarks that are above reproach, far from it, it was a simple conversation between a friend and i, while two halflings sitting by the fireplace of the Ladys rest, one of them, who will not be named, turned and said some choice words in Balok, friend and i were puzzled and shocked how the halfling would know or understand Balok.

1) he didnt really have any description besides 'Barovian Halfling, Speaks Balok and Halfling'
2) didnt have much depth of where he was supposively from with his accent, or if he was an outlander/not from the setting
3) I didnt see him hang around many locals or people i know from an ooc point who have been here a long time, just staying with his Hin friends.

Anyhow, again, sorry for all the disruption and my naive nature , Please Lock This Thread.

[dark_majico]

It hasn't turned into a big argument or a bashing thread though.

[Crimson Shuriken]

There is far too much calls to lock threads in general. There are very few instances which locking is needed or preferred, the topic has to be unproductive and off topic or disruptive.

[Kendaric]

It hasn't turned into a big argument or a bashing thread though.

It definitely serves a purpose and highlights some definitive issues with languages due to the way NWN handles stuff like this.
It might be an idea to actually add "Speak Language" as a "fake" skill that does nothing (cross class for everyone so it doesn't go overboard). For every 5 ranks you have in it you'd be able to speak one addtional language, The only issue would be enforcing it...

[Miuo]

I like, but as you said. The issue would be enforcing it

[FullMoon]

It hasn't turned into a big argument or a bashing thread though.

It definitely serves a purpose and highlights some definitive issues with languages due to the way NWN handles stuff like this.
It might be an idea to actually add "Speak Language" as a "fake" skill that does nothing (cross class for everyone so it doesn't go overboard). For every 5 ranks you have in it you'd be able to speak one addtional language, The only issue would be enforcing it...

Or add language scripts ? I have seen them on other servers where you pick your languages at start which are encoded on a token, if further languages are added later the token can be updated. This is working along with actual scrypts for elven and so on which do not translate unless you have the language. Stops metagaming and really adds to the value of languages.

[Sorrow00]

On Arelith, they had languages scripted with their own sort of mixed letters or jibberish which shows up on one log, and translates on another log, but it doesnt if you dont know the language, i think this would be very useful on POTM.

[Miuo]

I fear this would take up alot of resources, nor would it be able to cover all the settings people come from :/

[VeeTpl]

Seen a very similar system on The Way Inn server.

Absolutely loved the concept.

[Miuo]

Same, its amazingness. Also creates mystery when you really cant understand what people are saying

But iv seen the idea shot down on a few servers do to the fact it could eat up resources that could be used for something. Also would take aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages to add in as someone would have to create alot of new languages for PoTM, but i suppose it wouldn't be to hard as most languages are based off real languages. And all the core races would be already done.

[Exordium]

I don't think it would really be too resource intensive. For myself on a purely personal level, I tend to prefer being able to see what characters speak, even if it's in a language my character doesn't understand. This purely because it's way more interesting than looking at [Legolas speaks in Elven]

[Miuo]

Yes,  but it also prevents ooc knowledge issues. And claiming you know more languages then you actually do. It has its pro's and con's. But so does our current method.

[blur927]

There's a tool that most servers use to implement languages called DMFI. I'm guessing that potm already uses it (lots of similar features). Probably a good reason why the language part isn't implemented here, maybe it takes some time to add custom languages, or because there would be a ton of languages that would need to be added. Even if you stick to languages that only exist in Ravenloft it's gotta be around 20 languages.

As far as the original subject is concerned, I think some of this stems from the misconception that Balok is only spoken in Barovia. I was under the same assumption until I picked up the player's handbook and some of the Gazetteers and did a little reading. Like others have said, Balok is used as a common language in a lot of domains, so someone from Mordent or Borca knowing Balok wouldn't be unheard of, and it's probably even common in a place like Richemulot, maybe not fluent but at least a passing knowledge of the language and enough to know if someone's insulting you.

[Exordium]

Yes,  but it also prevents ooc knowledge issues. And claiming you know more languages then you actually do. It has its pro's and con's. But so does our current method.

Well, again on purely on my own opinion, the amount of OOC information that players can utilize is way too massive to make restrictions towards it very useful. It's relatively effortless to deduce level, class, etc. I find it better to just trust the players with it and do find myself enjoying a game much more when I as a player can read what others say, even if my character didn't understand it and can make the distinction between the two.

[Miuo]

As do i, but it only takes a few to spoil such. Then its no longer fun when you have to censor what you say because your worried it will suddenly be known to everyone.

[Lucadia]

if your worried about that and the subject was sensative you woudlnt be speaking openly in another tongue. you dont know who knows what langauge.

[Badelaire]

if your worried about that and the subject was sensative you woudlnt be speaking openly in another tongue. you dont know who knows what langauge.

Ladies and gentleman, I give you common sense. Talking about something sensitive that you don't want others to find out about? We have a server FULL of places you can hold secret meetings. The only exceptions would be people from other settings speaking tongues others from Ravenloft and alternates that shouldn't be able to understand nor learn without being taught. I can't see someone from Krynn knowing Untheric for example, no matter how high his intelligence.

[Miuo]

This was part of the reason it was brought up i believe. Outlanders who've not been in this world very long suddenly knowing and speaking core languages flawlessly.

[Crimson Shuriken]

I generally never pick up any Ravenloft languages with even a long time outlander PC. It just helps to make them feel like they are isolated.

However there does exist a paranoia, I've had perfectly plausible characters with strong command of Balok prompt tell inquiries before

[ethinos]

This was part of the reason it was brought up i believe. Outlanders who've not been in this world very long suddenly knowing and speaking core languages flawlessly.

We are on a real life = server time ratio right now, so folks do have to use logic and common sense. I have Faerunian (is that a word? haha) characters that have been on the server for 6 years now. Plenty of time to get some kind of fluency, albeit with a noticeable accent of course. But for the most part, I choose to play them as only knowing a few basic words or phrases here and there in Balok. They don't seek to converse in Balok since 'common' is so prevalent amongst those that they socialize with but have been surrounded by enough Balok usage to have learned some of the basics. They'll catch on to words like beer, sleep, Guards, etc., or phrases like 'Good night', but will get immediately lost if a conversation in Balok commences.

Now, I know you were implying newly Misted characters that were suddenly fluent in a foreign language, and for the most part I'd agree that it was highly improbable. I spent 3/3.5 years learning French and Spanish in high school and I consider myself very far from fluent from lack of practice/usage and from little motivation. I imagine a genius character could probably pick it up much faster with a tutor, but I'd like to highlight the need for some form of education. Simply having a dictionary or grammar guide of another language isn't going to be enough.

It would be fun if a language system was put in place, but I'd like to see an alternate version than the static, one point and instant fluency vanilla version. Maybe double your Int points and require two points for fluency and just one for basic pigeon speech. However, I think simply being responsible roleplayers should keep the cheesing to a minimum when it comes to improbable foreign language fluency.