Author Topic: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?  (Read 3281 times)

Draxiss

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Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« on: April 28, 2013, 03:22:28 PM »
I know it's also the default for NWN, but there is absolutely nothing that I've found in PnP that says these skills can't be taken as cross-class skills by other classes. After all, you don't *have* to have magical aptitude to know how to play a lute (example in real life - anyone who has ever learned to play a lute who cannot also cast spells). Also, it simply doesn't make sense for say, a wizard, to not have any aptitude for know how to work with magical devices. It just doesn't make sense that rogues and bards (not counting prestige classes) are the only ones who can learn the tricks to work with other magical items.

Why aren't these being changed to cross-class skills?
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Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2013, 04:09:55 PM »
Perform will be made cross-class in the next hak update.

UMD will stay as it is.

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Draxiss

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 09:16:46 PM »
Resisting . . . urge . . . to resurrect . . . UMD . . . argument.
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Exordium

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2013, 09:32:18 PM »
I'm quite sure freeing UMD for all classes would imply somewhat largish changes in balance. Though granted, majority of non-casters are multiclassed rogues anyway.. :P

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 12:10:38 PM »
UMD for all classes would be hugely imbalanced (and also contrary to D&D rules).

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HellsPanda

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2013, 12:15:10 PM »
Well you can easily explain why only bards and rogues can get UMD, with that it requires a flexible and deceptive mindset that only rogues and bards can have.

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2013, 12:17:50 PM »
The main reason rogues have this skill is because the class was inspired by the Grey Mouser character from Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar stories.

Bards have it because they are jacks-of-all-trades that "know a little bit of everything."

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monsinyana

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 02:10:37 AM »
I play a halan (pure cleric) but only focus on spells i think are more 'witchy' and not really divine. i've also tried creating chants for each spell weaved.

Are we allowed to put in an app for things like 'having a bunch of skill points re-assigned to something like UMD'?
or app for a widget that allows us to take the skill?

i would like to go a pseudo-hallowed witch route. i think using magic items is appropriate for Halans anyway and not an insane request.
No?

i assume i will get a no but it cant hurt to ask :)

i dont think all classes should get perform and UMD but realm concepts like halans- i think its fitting
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Draxiss

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 05:50:46 AM »
I can make a reasonably strong argument about UMD, but I'm afraid to do so, and thus spark the UMD Wars . . .

Tread carefully, they have claimed many a thread on many a forum. Where the taint of UMD touches, nothing is the same EVER AGAIN.

On a less heavy note, monsinyana's idea is actually a rather novel approach.
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HellsPanda

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 05:52:40 AM »
We have had every argument you can imagine while I have been here, we might loose a few people to insanity, but the community as a whole survives

APorg

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 11:20:56 AM »
Have a witch who's actually a rogue that specialises in UMD.
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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 05:59:47 PM »
We have had every argument you can imagine while I have been here, we might loose a few people to insanity, but the community as a whole survives

Not -every- argument, but the remaining ones are along the lines of:
Unicorns from the planet zircon have commanded that UMD turn people blue on the third, sixteenth and forty-third day of every month lest giant worms fly from my rear to devour your shoes.

Paragonville

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2013, 06:06:30 PM »
We have had every argument you can imagine while I have been here, we might loose a few people to insanity, but the community as a whole survives

Not -every- argument, but the remaining ones are along the lines of:
Unicorns from the planet zircon have commanded that UMD turn people blue on the third, sixteenth and forty-third day of every month lest giant worms fly from my rear to devour your shoes.

For someone who plays adorable characters, you can be quite disturbing.

dutchy

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2013, 09:01:42 PM »
We have had every argument you can imagine while I have been here, we might loose a few people to insanity, but the community as a whole survives

Not -every- argument, but the remaining ones are along the lines of:
Unicorns from the planet zircon have commanded that UMD turn people blue on the third, sixteenth and forty-third day of every month lest giant worms fly from my rear to devour your shoes.

For someone who plays adorable characters, you can be quite disturbing.

and its spawning more of him  :?
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Draxiss

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2013, 07:54:52 PM »
A bunch of slightly differing sides enter. Probably none will leave.
LET THE BATTLE . . . BEEEEGIN!

Pretending that a vote existed, I would vote for it to be available as a cross-class skill for all the other classes. From a "PnP Rules" standpoint, it is available to all the other classes as a cross-class skill, and it seems like we want to come closer to PnP.
From a logical standpoint, it just doesn't makes sense for only two classes, one of which isn't even a spellcasting class, to have access to the ability to work with magical devices. Now, it could make sense that they could specialize in it (being tricksters), but that doesn't mean other classes couldn't pick it up as well. For example, wizards specialize in being smart and knowing about magic, so why wouldn't they know how to tinker with magical items? All of the spell casting classes should have access to it, at the very least. And why not the other classes? I mean, it's a skill not a class feature like wild empathy. It's supposed to be something anyone can learn with practice. Upon examining the description, it seems like it's sort of the fantasy equivalent of learning how to hack into a computer.

I don't quite understand why being handsome affects how well you can use it, but that's WotC for you. Maybe you have to successfully seduce the item.
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RedwizardD

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2013, 08:04:53 PM »
I don't quite understand why being handsome affects how well you can use it, but that's WotC for you. Maybe you have to successfully seduce the item.

Charisma actually can have little to do with personal appearance. It is strength of personality as much as charm.

Exordium

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2013, 08:52:29 PM »
From a "PnP Rules" standpoint, it is available to all the other classes as a cross-class skill, and it seems like we want to come closer to PnP.

PnP is only a single argument for or against a change. Never the sole reason.

From a logical standpoint, it just doesn't makes sense for only two classes, one of which isn't even a spellcasting class, to have access to the ability to work with magical devices.

Anyone can use a magical device that his race and class allow to and to which he knows the activation procedure. But the core issue is not as much of logic or PnP, but balance. UMD even in the hands of these two classes can be immensely powerful, especially due to how it allows scrolls being used.

Now, it could make sense that they could specialize in it (being tricksters), but that doesn't mean other classes couldn't pick it up as well. For example, wizards specialize in being smart and knowing about magic, so why wouldn't they know how to tinker with magical items? All of the spell casting classes should have access to it, at the very least. And why not the other classes? I mean, it's a skill not a class feature like wild empathy. It's supposed to be something anyone can learn with practice. Upon examining the description, it seems like it's sort of the fantasy equivalent of learning how to hack into a computer.

UMD is a bit different than that. Its working is not logical in the sense that hacking into a computer system is; You don't need great knowledge of the magical item to be able to use it through UMD. Instead, it's perhaps closer to your ability to 'fake' in a way. For example, if a magical device required a specific word to activate that only worked with a certain race, a character with good UMD wouldn't necessarily need to even know this word - or what the item does to begin with. Instead, he might raise the item, speak a nonsense phrase, and woo! It works.. Granted he's done the faking well enough. :P

I don't quite understand why being handsome affects how well you can use it, but that's WotC for you. Maybe you have to successfully seduce the item.

Quote
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

There's no direct (albeit there is a loose one) correlation between appearance and charisma.

monsinyana

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2013, 02:33:48 AM »
I don't quite understand why being handsome affects how well you can use it, but that's WotC for you. Maybe you have to successfully seduce the item.

dont forget in tabletop to identify and understand an item you had to spend a whole day staring at it, and fondling it, and getting to know it intimately. "know" it in the biblical sense though would be going a bit too far :P
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Lucadia

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Re: Perform and Use Magic Device - Why not available?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2013, 02:48:34 AM »
I sometimes wish we still had the 7th stat for representing "looks" over this..mish mash of Charasima

and umd on the two classes we already have is one reasons why to multiclass with them. Scrolls are powerful..very powerful.