Stealth Equipment.

[APorg]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AolmfMZIKKb4dGNqTFhzSmlXanFXS3hsNVYwbjlOeXc&usp=sharing

There's probably a more elegant way of doing this but at least this way it's demonstrative.

The top starts by treating the probability of a single round of stealth. The big box shows the possible 400 outcomes of rolling two d20s; in the example that I've saved, the Detector has +0, and the Stealther has +15 (as the Stealther's roll sets the DC for the Detector's check, that means ties go to the Detector).

As you can see, the top right triangle of 1s in the big box shows those cases where the Detector wins. There's 15 boxes out of 400, so the probability that the Stealther is seen is 15/400, or 3.75%. Conversely, the probability that the Steather isn't seen is 96.25%.

But of course that doesn't tell you how long you're going to stay stealthed. Unless you beat the Detector by 20, you're going to be spotted eventually: as long as your success % is less than 100, you're going to get unlucky at some point.

The probability that you stay stealthed for 2 rounds in the above example is 96.25%²; the probability of staying stealthed for 3 rounds is 96.25%³. In general, the probability of staying stealthed for t rounds is S^t, where S is the probability of staying stealthed for one round. So if we look at the case on the "edge of the coin" to figure out the average time, we're trying to find:

S^t = 0.5

=> t ln(S) = ln(0.5) (natural logarithms)
=> t = ln(0.5)/ln(S)

So to put back in the numbers, if my Stealth score beats your Detector score by 15, I can anticipate that I will stay hidden or an average of 18.13 rounds, or about 108 seconds.

The final table for this I put at the bottom of the sheet.

What's really striking about this table is that it illustrates just how critical just a few points of stealth can be for a Stealther. If I beat your Detector score by 19, I can anticipate my stealth will last ~276 rounds and pocket change, which is about half an hour. Knock me down three points to +16, and my average stealth time is drastically reduced to 27 rounds and change, which is less than three minutes. Knock me down another three points to +13 and my average stealth time will last barely a minute.

N.B.: This feels intuitively correct but it's been a long time since I did proper statistics so I can't be completely certain I'm correct :p

One thing I haven't done is explored the variance, which tells you how reliable the average score is; but I think even I'm growing bored of this atm

[Exordium]

Additionally, due to the rather peculiar way of how the detection works, stealthed character often has -5 to the roll modifiers due to moving while in practice the detector may not suffer at all. The calculations seem about right on a quick glance tho!

Unfortunately NWN's stealth is quite flawed both to its benefit and its disadvantage. If it works, it's extremely strong (and corner stealthing done skillfully is very, very hard to counter) but when it doesn't work well, it's useless - and the difference between these two is about just a few points. Hence it's very difficult to balance in a manner that was satisfactory to all parties.

In any case, I've too ran to a bit more detection gear than stealth gear.. Perhaps more move silently items are required to balance the listen gear?

[FullMoon]

I don't really know all the best gear stats but maybe a vetran player could help me here. If I have all the best equipment for either Listen Gear and Spot Gear what is the maximum plus attainable versus the max attainable in MS and Hide ?

[BahamutZ3RO]

I think there's a problem with the loot tables, but I don't understand how they work well enough to pinpoint why or say how. To me, at least, it seems that the entire server borrows from one large pool of items. The quality of those items depends heavily on the area and what spawn it is, but for the most part it always seems to target the lower portion of the table and as a consequence we generally see a whole lot of the same things. Last I'd heard we were in the hundreds, but mundane items aside there only seems to be a handful of things ever actually popping up in chests.

[HellsPanda]

If you max out detection, you will spot every stealther. But no one does, because in most cases its not necessary

[ThePwush]

If you max out detection, you will spot every stealther. But no one does, because in most cases its not necessary

Except one.....

[Bodhidharma]

There are a lot of hidden mechanics to stealth that it would be impossible to factor those in.

If you're grinding for instance and someone is stalking you, the detector would suffer the following penalties: 5 for not standing still , 10 for being engaged in a fight, additional 5 if the stealthy is properly positioned on your rear, if your character is not of the "elf" race you will not have detect mode activated whilst in combat which means that your die roll for detection will be halved and your skill points in detection will also be halved.

If you're roleplaying and stand still, a light-source available and with detection mode activated you'll be rolling a full die roll and plus on full skill points, as a detector you're most likely to be the victor in this scenario unless the stealthy person is not in line of sight, in that scenario the stealthy type will automatically avoid detection and still being able to effectively eavesdrop. If you cannot break line of sight or effectively eavesdrop then I believe that those you're trying to eavesdrop on have actually taken the needed precautions to avoid eavesdropping.


I really hate numbers so that aside I must say that this abundance of "spot helmets" is not something I claim to be true in my case considering the fact that my main character is level 13 and I have NEVER seen a spot helmet, in fact I haven't even seen those helmets OOCly or with any other characters I have. I do admit that it is relatively easy to get Lodestar rings for spot, other rings for spot I haven't ever seen either if such truly exist.

[BahamutZ3RO]

There are a lot of hidden mechanics to stealth that it would be impossible to factor those in.

If you're grinding for instance and someone is stalking you, the detector would suffer the following penalties: 5 for not standing still , 10 for being engaged in a fight, additional 5 if the stealthy is properly positioned on your rear, if your character is not of the "elf" race you will not have detect mode activated whilst in combat which means that your die roll for detection will be halved and your skill points in detection will also be halved.

If you're roleplaying and stand still, a light-source available and with detection mode activated you'll be rolling a full die roll and plus on full skill points, as a detector you're most likely to be the victor in this scenario unless the stealthy person is not in line of sight, in that scenario the stealthy type will automatically avoid detection and still being able to effectively eavesdrop. If you cannot break line of sight and effectively eavesdrop then I believe that those you're trying to eavesdrop on have actually taken the needed precautions to avoid eavesdropping.


I really hate numbers so that aside I must say that this abundance of "spot helmets" is not something I claim to be true in my case considering the fact that my main character is level 13 and I have NEVER seen a spot helmet, in fact I haven't even seen those helmets OOCly or with any other characters I have. I do admit that it is relatively easy to get Lodestar rings for spot, other rings for spot I haven't ever seen either if such truly exist.

They only came in with a recent update, I believe. I found three of them in one dungeon run.

[APorg]

Yeah, good Spot gear used to be damned rare; not so much anymore.

Conversely, Listen gear's always been pretty common but clashes more with Spot/Stealth builds.

[Exordium]

There are a lot of hidden mechanics to stealth that it would be impossible to factor those in.

If you're grinding for instance and someone is stalking you, the detector would suffer the following penalties: 5 for not standing still , 10 for being engaged in a fight, additional 5 if the stealthy is properly positioned on your rear, if your character is not of the "elf" race you will not have detect mode activated whilst in combat which means that your die roll for detection will be halved and your skill points in detection will also be halved.

In somescenarios (such as moving, pacing, occasionally standing still, turning about, etc) you can just conclude that every roll eventually through the round has a -5 modifier for the stealther. This is because the check for modifiers is done several times a second and if at any point during a round the stealther's roll (done once a round) is same or less than the detector's, after the modifiers (which, again, are checked several times a second) have been counted in, the stealther comes visible.

In majority of scenarios, over many rounds and on the average, detector tends to get the upper hand from the hidden modifiers. Whilst calculating this accurately would be impossible in beforehand, it's still another reason why detecting is easier than staying hidden.

I really hate numbers so that aside I must say that this abundance of "spot helmets" is not something I claim to be true in my case considering the fact that my main character is level 13 and I have NEVER seen a spot helmet, in fact I haven't even seen those helmets OOCly or with any other characters I have. I do admit that it is relatively easy to get Lodestar rings for spot, other rings for spot I haven't ever seen either if such truly exist.

Mmh, personally I've found Jackal's Rings and Lodestars very common, much more so than MS/Hide rings. And you've two ring slots, so..

Well.. Item suggestions, then. ^_^

[Bluebomber4evr]

I think there's a problem with the loot tables, but I don't understand how they work well enough to pinpoint why or say how. To me, at least, it seems that the entire server borrows from one large pool of items. The quality of those items depends heavily on the area and what spawn it is, but for the most part it always seems to target the lower portion of the table and as a consequence we generally see a whole lot of the same things. Last I'd heard we were in the hundreds, but mundane items aside there only seems to be a handful of things ever actually popping up in chests.

I moved this post here because it was not relevant to the item request discussion thread.

There are multiple pools of items that the treasure system pulls from, the value of the items depends entirely on how strong the spawns in the area are. Based on this post: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=32453.0 , if the spawns are constantly being reset, so will the treasure in those areas.

[eyeofpestilence]

They only came in with a recent update, I believe. I found three of them in one dungeon run.

It does appear there does seem a greater likelihood of new items to drop over old items. Which I've never really understood.

[Bluebomber4evr]

They only came in with a recent update, I believe. I found three of them in one dungeon run.

It does appear there does seem a greater likelihood of new items to drop over old items. Which I've never really understood.

There's absolutely no way for the system to determine which item is "new" or "old." The likelihood of an item showing up is determined by:

1. The gp value of the item
2. The strength of the dungeon's spawns
3. Which treasury pools the treasure chest is pulling from; some pools have duplicate items depending on the theme of the pool

[dutchy]

up the old/acient items to 2% instead of 1% so they drop like the new items maybe that works?

[Bluebomber4evr]

up the old/acient items to 2% instead of 1% so they drop like the new items maybe that works?

They were never put in the 1% treasury, so that's not going to do anything

[DM Panic]

The equipment available actually favors the stealther.  The old stealth loot is still out there, it's just no longer as simple to get as raiding the same place over and over again.

[eyeofpestilence]

The old stealth loot is still out there, it's just no longer as simple to get as raiding the same place over and over again.

Then here lays the root problem identified through this thread. Stealth gear is far to uncommon compared to how common comparable spot/listen gear. As of late with all the new items added, stealth gear is even more rare to drop and therefore even attempting to make a stealth based char means it will take years to get gear to counter someone focused in spot or listen whom can get the gear in a week.

The equipment available actually favors the stealther. 

If this is true, then the gear required is so rare it doesn't drop.

[APorg]

Or when it drops, those for whom it drops don't talk about it! :p

[DM Panic]

If this is true, then the gear required is so rare it doesn't drop.

This is an illusion of perception.  They have the same probability to drop, but because you're looking for one and dislike the other as you favor the first, you will notice the one you dislike coming into existence.

I had to stop myself and say this to myself, as I was continuously looking for Jackal's rings, and I kept finding Rings of Silence everywhere.  They're actually equally rare.  However, the big stealth items are much more likely to be hung onto and taken out of circulation by the finder.

To put things into perspective, there are stealth items for every slot, including weapon, and detection items for 5 slots if you include a faction armor.  For most, 4 slots of detection is all you get.

Furthermore, as far as detection vs. stealth goes, most people will not invest into wisdom which fuels both spot and listen unless it is relevant for them to cast spells, while every person interested in stealthing will invest in dexterity, which fuels their combat prowess as well as these skills.  Without any additional items, the stealther is already 3-7 points ahead of the detector.

[FullMoon]

But you are also building up two skills Hide/MS and the detector only usually focuses on one, and he has the base +20 bonus to start. So unless the best stealth items are +2 or better than the detect items advantage is to the detecter.

Also Wisdom is a class stat for ranger, paladin, druid, monk and cleric which is a good percentage of all classes.

[HellsPanda]

And all of those classes have it tight with skill points, and 2 of them dont even have a detection skill as a class skill

[DM Panic]

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Stealth

There is no +20 bonus to start.

[FullMoon]

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Stealth

There is no +20 bonus to start.

Not outright, but eventually the spotter will roll a 20 and the hider a 1.

[eyeofpestilence]

And all of those classes have it tight with skill points, and 2 of them dont even have a detection skill as a class skill

Gear readily available will provide +20 to listen. Horn adds +20 lasting longer then any use item silence spell. Potion +10 and counters invis. The available gear is in Amulet, Rings and Helm are all +5 to one stat of either Hide or MS many with negatives to make the item cost less and more readily available.

Also Ranger and Monk have at least Listen as a skill. Clerics have buffs spells. All have potions.

Counter with need for two stats both hide and ms. More slots required to fill to counter the inherent d20 roll. Weapon, rings, boots, belt, armor, helm is negligible in value. By default most if not all of the calculations for loot all stealth gear is more expensive as it needs to cover two stats and therefore less likely to drop by guidelines Blue has pointed out. Items such as rings of silence are +4 not +5 giving the sensors the benefit and need to cover more slots.

[shadymerchant]

The equipment available actually favors the stealther.  The old stealth loot is still out there, it's just no longer as simple to get as raiding the same place over and over again.

If you're going to make this claim I'd appreciate some actual numbers. I've added up every available piece of spot and stealth gear, plus supportive spells, and I think ranger came out to around 70 max on hide/ms, while a trueseeing spotter ended up closer to 80.