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Author Topic: Rogues & Open lock  (Read 37484 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #175 on: August 14, 2014, 10:22:17 AM »
How would a rogue with 20+ Open lock skill... and 8-9 int be able to open a combo lock?  :bonk:

Memorizing the steps. With that low an int, it would take them proportionally longer to get to that skill level, too, reflecting the increased difficulty in memorization.

Combination locks aren't that hard. I imagine if they existed in setting they wouldn't be much more complicated than the crappy ones you put on high school lockers, and all you had to do with those was apply pressure between the body and the U and turn until you felt tension.

Well SOMEONE forgot their high school locker combo xD

Naw, I just spent a lot of time bored and skulking around, rummaging through other people's lockers. :P
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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #176 on: August 17, 2014, 11:56:03 AM »
I'm a little ignorant on this but I think the way it works is that you need at least 1 rogue level to obtain the open locks feat.  And after you get that 1st point in open locks you can then don a bunch of open locks gear to boost it high enough to open most locked items.  If this is actually what is happening I'd say I'm against it since it makes the rogue less useful for group adventures.  Please correct me if my understanding is off.

HellsPanda

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #177 on: August 17, 2014, 11:57:22 AM »
You dont actually need that rogue level, you need skill points put in OL even if its cross class

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #178 on: August 17, 2014, 12:00:18 PM »
You dont actually need that rogue level, you need skill points put in OL even if its cross class

Ah, thanks for clearing that up for me.  But isn't it true that open lock skill is available only to certain classes?  Like rogue and bard only?  For example, I play a monk and I don't remember ever seeing open locks even as a cross class

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #179 on: August 17, 2014, 12:54:02 PM »
You dont actually need that rogue level, you need skill points put in OL even if its cross class

Ah, thanks for clearing that up for me.  But isn't it true that open lock skill is available only to certain classes?  Like rogue and bard only?  For example, I play a monk and I don't remember ever seeing open locks even as a cross class

Open locks is a cross class skill for a monk, my monk chang took some points in and to be honest he can open very high DC locks.


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Thunor

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #180 on: August 17, 2014, 04:47:49 PM »
Open locks is a cross class skill for a monk, my monk chang took some points in and to be honest he can open very high DC locks.

Hum.  I guess I never noticed that.  Thanks for the correction.

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #181 on: August 18, 2014, 04:37:05 AM »
My monk as well, Sud has a decent ol skill. But there is only so much you can do with a cross class skill, especially since you can only take a point in it every two levels and it costs two points to do so.
I think my monk, with her horrid ol gear might be able to pull a dc 34 or so with out lock picks.

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #182 on: August 18, 2014, 08:58:28 AM »
If i remember the only old skill that was only for certain classes added to other classes is the perform skill

Ellana Twiggy

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #183 on: August 18, 2014, 12:03:08 PM »
umd is only for certain classes :)

Hlot

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #184 on: August 23, 2014, 01:27:43 AM »
To solve this problem there should be more chests/doors with high OL requirements so only specialized characters would be able to open them. This would increase demand for proper rogues and it wouldn't be so cheesy anymore. I am talking about values like DC 75+ for locks.

As for traps, there should be unrecoverable custom traps that deal enough damage to lay down level 20 with single activation. Like 350 divine damage with no save roll sounds just about right for a trap that is on chest or doors. Otherwise it ain't trap at all.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 01:41:56 AM by Hlot »

Syl

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #185 on: August 23, 2014, 01:36:46 AM »
To solve this problem there should be more chests/doors with high OL requirements so only specialized characters would be able to open them. This would increase demand for proper rogues and it wouldn't be so cheesy anymore. I am talking about values like DC 75+ for locks.

Damn.. that's high even for a level 20 rogue with skill focuse and ALLLLL dex.....well.. without picks its high. that's like saying.. lets just throw in some epic traps while we be at it so people will learn to not just walk over traps and bring a rogue.. LOL

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Hlot

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #186 on: August 23, 2014, 01:43:20 AM »
Nope, that's like saying that in this ancient temple that is hosting thousand-year old treasures someone laid down rat traps so I'll just run over or summon my badger to do it.

Lucadia

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #187 on: August 23, 2014, 12:49:32 PM »
To solve this problem there should be more chests/doors with high OL requirements so only specialized characters would be able to open them. This would increase demand for proper rogues and it wouldn't be so cheesy anymore. I am talking about values like DC 75+ for locks.

As for traps, there should be unrecoverable custom traps that deal enough damage to lay down level 20 with single activation. Like 350 divine damage with no save roll sounds just about right for a trap that is on chest or doors. Otherwise it ain't trap at all.
Its been addressed over and over. Last. Few pages debunk the misconceptions that ol is a rogue only skill. Honestly .  Nobody wants to be forced to bring a class to a party to complete a dungeon. Maybe the rogue pcs claiming they get no love is all about protrayal of their rp. Too shady. Too stand offish. Not trust worthy. Nothing cheesey either about clever pcs disarming traps with other tricks. That's called problem solving skills. Traps you mentioned are tools of killer dms that serve no purpose

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #188 on: August 23, 2014, 01:32:00 PM »
To solve this problem there should be more chests/doors with high OL requirements so only specialized characters would be able to open them. This would increase demand for proper rogues and it wouldn't be so cheesy anymore. I am talking about values like DC 75+ for locks.

As for traps, there should be unrecoverable custom traps that deal enough damage to lay down level 20 with single activation. Like 350 divine damage with no save roll sounds just about right for a trap that is on chest or doors. Otherwise it ain't trap at all.

Traps you mentioned are tools of killer dms that serve no purpose

Besides adding elements of surprise and danger to an encounter, you mean.
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Lucadia

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #189 on: August 23, 2014, 02:04:30 PM »
There's no surprise to auto kill traps on non dm manned dugeons. Which is what hlot wants to justify rogue existence. Nor was the remark directed at potm dms as iv not seen it happen. Our dms have better imaginations for story telling then auto kill non recoverable trap.

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #190 on: August 23, 2014, 02:26:30 PM »
You guys are completely overreacting.

I think Blue really hit the nail on the head here.

A lot of people seem to be taking the approach that open lock is a rogue-only skill - that when used by another class, makes the rogue entirely useless. That really isn't the case.

Rogues have a huge amount of awesome abilities. High level rogues built for combat are crazy. Between feats like crippling strike and sneak attack, they can make for some of the most effective melee characters. Some are built with amazing appraise and can double/triple the value of items you sell. Not to mention the value they can add to RP.

On the topic of adding DC 75 locks and 1 hit instant death traps - it just doesn't make sense. POTM has always taken the stance that making a drastic change to benefit a tiny group isn't worthwhile. Putting an area behind a DC: 75 lock would mean it would be accessed .........almost never. I think I can count the number of active level 17+ pure rogues on one hand. So that's like saying - if you can't get one of these 5 people, this area is off limits.

I'd also point out that some areas like Har'Akir are built really well in terms of needing a rogue and generally balanced party. Can you do it other ways? Sure. But it makes it a whooooole lot easier to have a solid rogue around. I think that is a much better design than making the possibility of accessing an area extremely limited.

Hlot

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #191 on: August 23, 2014, 04:45:14 PM »
In such case I suggest removing locks and traps completely from the game because it's just confusing. Having dungeons that require party to have imp. expertise tank, high cleric or time stop mage is definitely more demanding than having DC75+ chest with 350dmg trap, yet nobody complains.

And DC75 chest ain't high btw.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 05:07:20 PM by Hlot »

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #192 on: August 23, 2014, 04:50:58 PM »
In such case I suggest removing locks and traps completely from the game because it's just confusing. Having dungeons that require party to have imp. expertise tank, high cleric or time stop mage is definitely more demanding than having DC75+ chest with 350dmg trap, yet nobody complains.


It's excessive and silly to make such a suggestion. Rogues have their place.

You guys are completely overreacting.
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« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 04:53:00 PM by Tycat »
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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2014, 11:13:02 AM »
I agree with several things :

In such case I suggest removing locks and traps completely from the game because it's just confusing. Having dungeons that require party to have imp. expertise tank, high cleric or time stop mage is definitely more demanding than having DC75+ chest with 350dmg trap, yet nobody complains.


It's excessive and silly to make such a suggestion. Rogues have their place.

You guys are completely overreacting.
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My kender has been utilized by the shady community to 'rescue' their poor undesirables from the imprisonment of the 'undead' (which is just a tricky way of saying he was convinced to recover a corpse or two from that guard tomb behind the church), and he is nearly all rogue.

Now, more often than not my monk wont take a known 'thief' or such along with her on adventures, especially if she has given said person a chance on a previous one and seen them being greedy or try to snatch every thing up in sight, and yes, sudhri watches for that with everyone she travels with. She has a code of having one person collect things and it all dived out at the end.

My rdd isn't opposed to having a rogue, but even she will try to pull the wool over a rogues eyes on occasion and snag gems and rare items for her 'shiny' bag.

Are rogues a complete must have, regardless of the personality of the character, perhaps on occasion but not really.  A person can reach the higher dc locks with the right preparations and build (allocating of skill points and stats) if that's how they want to do it.

I do not agree that traps with no saves that do massive amounts of damage should be added. For one, such traps would require such a ridiculous search/spot that even a spot monkey might not even be able to find them so your rouge would be the first to die going over said traps trying to find them.
There are currently traps in dungeons which cannot be disabled, they may not auto kill you, but they certainly aren't going anywhere. Even with a rogue.

I don't know if those amazing extremely rare +5 ol rings are still in the loot table or not, but those were a god send to people who didn't have rogue levels (whether because they didn't want to multi class or weren't allowed to), this being a god send because a lawful neutral char shouldn't be forced  to travel with a possibly chaotic evil character who one could surmise is going to cheat you at the first opportunity simply to enjoy a group adventure and possibly find ok loot.

I haven't seen much of sithicus, but I would imagine that there are some phenomenal locks and traps there where you would be required to have a high level rogue. But such is that area , level 18 +. I hope one day to see more of it, but it may be a while till any of my characters are truly of the appropriate level and build to survive with a good group there.

Syl

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #194 on: August 25, 2014, 01:27:55 PM »
Quote
In such case I suggest removing locks and traps completely from the game because it's just confusing. Having dungeons that require party to have imp. expertise tank, high cleric or time stop mage is definitely more demanding than having DC75+ chest with 350dmg trap, yet nobody complains.
Quote
It's excessive and silly to make such a suggestion. Rogues have their place.


I would have to agree with Magi and Mika and many on that those traps would be Excessive and silly and rather much. The highest DC trap I have see to recover is a dc 55 and those are the deadly holy and neg traps in the desert (for those that don't play rogues remove 10 points from the recovery dc and thats the disable DC) . I i've done the numbers even on my none shady Rogue Explorer. by level 20 she will be able to recover them. She can disarm them making it seem like a child could do it and that is without having the backround bonuses to disable dievice. Rogues have their place Its just how you make them.

As many have said they are the most versitile toons on the server. and they all have their place. you can have trapmasters/ lockmasters/ spies and stealthers... Its just all on how you want to play them.

THere is no need for traps that have no save and just a insane amount of damage. that would be pointless to have because no rogue will be able to get that. a dc 75 trap..  I personaly have fallen inlove with rogues, because not all are exactly the same you can have the clasic. Dark and shady rogue that smuggles and steals and... just a typical iconic image of a rogue.

Or you can have ones like Magi's kender or my rogue Monica who are happy and joyfull. while even these two are diffrent in their own ways they are not exactly that iconic image of rogue and you can bet your sweet arse I rather take a rogue with me than have my tank walk over any traps. While she can evade most and just take the beating, it starts getting painful and taxing for the cleric to heal them if they fail the reflex or fort save.

So Yes Rogues have their place in the server. and there isn't a need for these insane locks and traps your thinking of. Even with a grandmaster locksmith we're talking... 20dex avrage so thats +5 so by level 20 thats....what 24? skillpoints? we're up to 29 Open lock. now add in the feat +3=32. backgrounds if taken is another +2? there is 34 OL... now you can add in gear and we'll go with avrage so. Belt/ gloves/ two lock pick friends and goggles thats what a typical rogue has minus the goggles if they don't have UMD. there is another +5 that adds up to 39... and even the best picks is a +12 there is a 72 OL without magik buffs.. and even still with it unless its empowered you will only get 2 more points and now you need a bard. to get said dc 75. so yes a rogue will be able to get the insane high locks  but what does it matter how many pure rogues do you know of that are even close to level 20?

If the wizard who is vastly knowledable knows how to work with traps and locks so what? they took the time to LEARN it everyone can learn how to work with locks It even says in the discription for disable device mentioning rogues and traps..

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Disable Devce Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater

now while i am fully unsure of if that is true. Disable device is int based so the only other thing that would be close enough to disabling that trap is a wizard acording to skill points. but thats still difficult since they wouldn't get that untill level 20 since that skill is crossclass and takes 2 points add in INt mod... losts of numbers and i don't feel like attempting with my terrible math.

But anyways Rogues are needed. if the group doesn't want to take one [shrugs] their choice if the wizard wants to prepare a knock spell and upp his/hers OL go for it, I'm not overly hurt by others that do such and I honestly don't care about those OL rings. If people have them meh i'll live.  (some one will probably correct my math and numbers I'm not the greatest but that should be close.

So stop complaining about rogues not being loved take two skitles and call me in the morning.

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Ellana Twiggy

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #195 on: August 26, 2014, 10:50:08 AM »
Well, it would depend on a rogue's gear, but say if they were in the vardo, had a high int and dex, and a wizard or cleric to buff them and knock them then they could easily make a dc 75 with locks, possibly even with traps. But that gear is not freely available to the player base and I don't think there are really many vardo out there atm.
Maybe there is similar gear to be found, but I haven't really seen anything that compares.

For a plain rogue, with skill points properly allocated the right stats, and some decent gear that could be found and the appropriate buffs they could also easily hit a dc 75 with locks, maybe not trap disabling, but certainly with locks. It might be neat to see some sort of trap disabling friend to mimic the lock picker friends, only just for disabling traps.

Lucadia

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #196 on: August 26, 2014, 04:28:35 PM »
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Disable Devce Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater

now while i am fully unsure of if that is true.

This is true. You -need- a rogue level if the dc is above 35 to disarm traps. I have 40 disarm on a pure wizard and it gets you a message only rogues may do this.

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #197 on: August 26, 2014, 09:24:40 PM »
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Disable Devce Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater

now while i am fully unsure of if that is true.

This is true. You -need- a rogue level if the dc is above 35 to disarm traps. I have 40 disarm on a pure wizard and it gets you a message only rogues may do this.

THank you for clarifying that Lucadia I wasn't sure and didn't know if someone had a wizard with enough disable to do it

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #198 on: August 27, 2014, 12:56:40 AM »
Quote
Disable Devce Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater

now while i am fully unsure of if that is true.

This is true. You -need- a rogue level if the dc is above 35 to disarm traps. I have 40 disarm on a pure wizard and it gets you a message only rogues may do this.

unless it is your own trap you have layed down. Then the disable dc does not matter. You only will need to have 1 point in dd to be able to recover the trap you have layed down.
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Syl

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Re: Rogues & Open lock
« Reply #199 on: August 27, 2014, 12:57:37 AM »
Quote
Disable Devce Special: Rogue is the only class capable of disarming traps with a DC of 35 or greater

now while i am fully unsure of if that is true.

This is true. You -need- a rogue level if the dc is above 35 to disarm traps. I have 40 disarm on a pure wizard and it gets you a message only rogues may do this.

unless it is your own trap you have layed down. Then the disable dc does not matter. You only will need to have 1 point in dd to be able to recover the trap you have layed down.

This is not about traps you lay down. this is about the default traps you find on doors floors and chests

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