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Author Topic: Zone-dependent roleplay XP  (Read 112555 times)

Lockleed

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2013, 03:53:39 PM »
I don't really think its a good idea on a RP focused server to start deeming who can earn RP xp in what environment... I would think, RPing is universal. 

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2013, 03:54:22 PM »
Given the nature of the system and the fact that high levels generally linger around Vallaki anyways, I doubt we'll see much of a change!

I get what you're trying to do but I think you're going about it the wrong way.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 03:56:17 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2013, 04:02:45 PM »
I don't really think its a good idea on a RP focused server to start deeming who can earn RP xp in what environment... I would think, RPing is universal.  

That's rather naive. If you look at the prior discussion on zones, you would get some insight of what's at stake here.

Given the nature of the system and the fact that high levels generally linger around Vallaki anyways, I doubt we'll see much of a change!

I get what you're trying to do but I think you're going about it the wrong way.

The thing is - no matter what solution we choose, it'll be the wrong one - at least in some way. It's always a compromise. The proposal for this very system came from the playerbase though, but then there's always another part of the playerbase that prefers a different approach.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 04:09:40 PM by Zarathustra217 »

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2013, 04:06:21 PM »
Spoiler: show
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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2013, 04:14:52 PM »
Our rp is more important then yours, please leave the area..what Im expecting to happen.

why fix a system that wasnt broke? Equal opportunity for what ever a pc might have to say. Now it no longer is.

I dont see what its fixing? High levels being in certain areas? If they are there rping, then they are not doing anything else. its not going stop them from coming to area to say hunt down a mpc or even clearing an area out for what ever items they might of needed.

Lockleed

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2013, 04:21:15 PM »
I don't really think its a good idea on a RP focused server to start deeming who can earn RP xp in what environment... I would think, RPing is universal.  

That's rather naive. If you look at the prior discussion on zones, you would get some insight of what's at stake here.


The majority of your craftable items, iron ore, coal, silver, herbs, and such; are all firmly within low level regions, so high level PCs who craft will continue to return to these regions for those.  None of these resources are available in any significant quantity in the high level zones.  Even if they were, low levels gathering these is promoting trade... for instance, the number of herb-collecting prize contests going on... would still likely go on, due to the fact its easy for low levels to gather large amounts as opposed to just a few high levels scrounging.

What this does is discourage anyone over the zones 'level range' from RPing with anyone in these low level areas.  In my experience anything that promotes RP and player interaction is good.  Things which discourage it are not.

I hold to my initial statement.  Role playing is a universal.  Dictating who with, when, or how it is done isn't conductive to a good RP experience.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 04:36:35 PM by Lockleed »

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2013, 04:21:52 PM »
I don't think it will encourage people to relocate for rp.  It will reduce xp for high levels, which will force us players of these characters into a dungeoning mentality in order to level, but inevitably we would head back to Port or the outskirts for rp.  Caravan options from the Vallaki Vistani camp would do more to encourage spreading out without the sacrifice of rp xp.


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YouLitABonfire

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2013, 04:33:48 PM »
chillax. it'll be reviewed by the powers that be on how well it works and it's likely the decision was made for very good reasons and is an effort to curtail some of the issues that have arisen because of some bad habits exhibited by uberlooters.

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2013, 04:36:07 PM »
I don't really think its a good idea on a RP focused server to start deeming who can earn RP xp in what environment... I would think, RPing is universal. 

That's rather naive. If you look at the prior discussion on zones, you would get some insight of what's at stake here.


The majority of your craftable items, iron ore, coal, silver, herbs, and such; are all firmly within low level regions, so high level PCs who craft will continue to return to these regions for those.  None of these resources are available in any singificant quantity in the high level zones.  Even if they were, low levels gathering these is promoting trade... for instance, the number of herb-collecting prize contests going on... would still likely go on, due to the fact its easy for low levels to gather large amounts as opposed to just a few high levels scrounging.

Until we get better accessibiity of craftable resources in the other domains, then yes, the high levels will be returning to Vallaki once in a while. There are also other roleplay reasons for them to do so. But what it might change is make it less inciting for high levels to choose the low level zones as their main hang-out.


What this does is discourage anyone over the zones 'level range' from RPing with anyone in these low level areas.  In my experience anything that promotes RP is good.  Things which discourage it are not.

If you want to read up on the challenges that low and high level mixing generates in a gothic horror environment, I encourage you to look at the discussion here:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=24288.0

I hold to my initial statement.  Role playing is a universal.  Dictating who with, when, or how it is done isn't conductive to a good RP experience.

But there's no dictation, only revised distribution of rewards. Being that obsessed about the rewards isn't conductive to good RP either.

I don't think it will encourage people to relocate for rp.  It will reduce xp for high levels, which will force us players of these characters into a dungeoning mentality in order to level, but inevitably we would head back to Port or the outskirts for rp.  Caravan options from the Vallaki Vistani camp would do more to encourage spreading out without the sacrifice of rp xp.

I doubt anyone would ever have reduced RP XP in the Port.

chillax. it'll be reviewed by the powers that be on how well it works and it's likely the decision was made for very good reasons and is an effort to curtail some of the issues that have arisen because of some bad habits exhibited by uberlooters.

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2013, 04:40:08 PM »
I am not seeing the motivation for any high level PC to continue being a merchant with a change like this. However, we will see how it goes.
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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2013, 04:48:47 PM »
I'm a little wary too, but I'll see how it works. I think that half-XP is better than zero, for example, for high levels... but we'll see what happens.

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Lucadia

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2013, 05:04:31 PM »
No, it just seems like a punishment for having a high level pc in the first place, low levels get their xp but the high one dosent. Like saying your not important enough to justify granting the same benefits for a shared story. See how this works?

as for the complaints about mixed levels in a Gothic horror setting, perhaps its better to actually encourage high levels to be courteous to rp in the first place, over offering sticks to -everyone-

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2013, 05:06:27 PM »
I don't really think its a good idea on a RP focused server to start deeming who can earn RP xp in what environment... I would think, RPing is universal.  

That's rather naive. If you look at the prior discussion on zones, you would get some insight of what's at stake here.

Given the nature of the system and the fact that high levels generally linger around Vallaki anyways, I doubt we'll see much of a change!

I get what you're trying to do but I think you're going about it the wrong way.

The thing is - no matter what solution we choose, it'll be the wrong one - at least in some way. It's always a compromise. The proposal for this very system came from the playerbase though, but then there's always another part of the playerbase that prefers a different approach.

I don't know if you were around for Cookie Monster's iteration of Anphillia, but it taught me something important about game balance. Never take things away. If something is lacking, improve it. Don't lower the alternatives to make that thing seem more appealing. My recommendation is if you want higher levels RPing in other areas, give an RP multiplier in those areas. You could also set up "RP Dens", places like the opium den in the Port, where you want people to gather so that they can RP.
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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2013, 05:08:39 PM »
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Lockleed

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2013, 05:17:31 PM »

If you want to read up on the challenges that low and high level mixing generates in a gothic horror environment, I encourage you to look at the discussion here:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=24288.0
 
I'm reading through it, but 19 pages, it'll take awhile.

I hold to my initial statement.  Role playing is a universal.  Dictating who with, when, or how it is done isn't conductive to a good RP experience.

But there's no dictation, only revised distribution of rewards. Being that obsessed about the rewards isn't conductive to good RP either.


Dictation might not have been a good word choice on my part... here's an example to perhaps better illustrate the arguement I am trying to make.  

Two 15th level PCs are invited to travel to an event in Zeklos Keep from say, the Cathedral in Dementlieu.  The event is a debate between Torets.  Now, the pair are taking their time, walking, and having a discussion about the theological impact of the actions of the Fourth Sect as of late.  Its good RP, what they're doing.  I doubt anyone would argue that.

Now, zone wise, as they travel, the systems percieved value of this RP will drop.  From Dementlieu to perhaps Midway, they are fully accredited with full xp for what is a really good discussion.  From maybe Midway to the eastern farmlands of Vallaki, they recieve half the old RP value of this discussion.  Still not bad.  From Vallaki itself to the location of the event, they no longer recieved anything.  You can't say that the real quality of the discussion dropped at any point, while they travelled.  During the event itself, a whole lot of quality role playing occurs, in which a number of important church events are discussed, planned, and decided upon.

Because the locale, which was perfectly suited for this event, is in a predominantly low level zone, neither of the two who travelled here recieved any xp.  The quality of their RP has not diminished at any point, during the trip nor at the event itself.  But the system has now applied a 'value' to that RP, where before it had a universal standard.  These two individuals, who travelled to Zeklos, learned quite a bit from each other and from the discussion at the event.  But the system has now decided this was not a learning experience for them.

Now had this all been reversed, if the event were held in the Cathedral in Dementlieu, they would of been fully accredited for the entire experience.  And I'm sure thats really what the point is, to get these high levels out there.  But you are putting a value upon their RP where previously, there was a universal balance.  Thats what I'm trying to argue.  You can't always dictate where RP is going to happen.  You can hope, based upon the system and where the monsters are, but you can't predict where people are going to interact.  Even the players can't predict that.  We don't know where something is going to happen, when we're going to meet someone.  

I just really don't like the idea of putting a ticket value on peoples role playing, even if its by location.  Its like... next we should start checking their grammar.

I'm not really the kind to bandwagon anything, I wouldn't be doing it now but this has always been my favorite feature of PotM.  Its what made this not just another server to me.  I kind of hope I've made the point I wanted to say.  Is this hitting home with anybody out there?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 06:51:35 PM by Lockleed »

RedwizardD

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2013, 05:31:00 PM »
This is exceedingly stupid. No offense to our beloved Soren, but this just seems to be (as has been said already) punishment for high levels who play with low-levels. Right now Port-a-lucine, more specifically the Theater is filled with pcs much lower level than my own, about five to ten levels difference on average. The average level then when I play with my faction will mean I will get little or anything out of interacting with them. Anyone attending our events under the proposed system are then similarly impacted, which in turn will potentially discourage people from attending or possibly result in low-levels being harassed into leaving events.

XP is ridiculously hard to come by if you don't or can't dungeon grind daily already. This in every way seems to scream of discouraging role-play by making level gaps even more readily apparent.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 05:38:41 PM by RedwizardD »

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2013, 05:40:24 PM »
...

And that, my friend, is exactly why it's a compromise. I imagine though that it'll far by far be the exception rather than the rule that it'll have an effect. With the way it's set up, the very arrival of higher levels to a zone significantly increase the average level, except when it's in very frequented areas. And if it does something positive for the overall roleplay atmosphere, I think we can all live with those compromises once in a while reducing the XP gains. XP is only second to the roleplay, after all.


I don't know if you were around for Cookie Monster's iteration of Anphillia, but it taught me something important about game balance. Never take things away. If something is lacking, improve it. Don't lower the alternatives to make that thing seem more appealing. My recommendation is if you want higher levels RPing in other areas, give an RP multiplier in those areas. You could also set up "RP Dens", places like the opium den in the Port, where you want people to gather so that they can RP.

We are very conscious of this aspect, but we can't always avoid taking something away but just adding more. In this particular example, just giving out more RP XP would make level progression much faster than we'd want.

This is exceedingly stupid. No offense to our beloved Soren, but this just seems to be (as has been said already) punishment for high levels who play with low-levels. Right now Port-a-lucine, more specifically the Theater is filled with pcs much lower level than my own, about five to ten levels difference on average. The average level then when I play with my faction will mean I will get little or anything out of interacting with them. Anyone attending our events under the proposed system are then similarly impacted, which in turn will potentially discourage people from attending or possibly result in low-levels being harassed into leaving events.

XP is ridiculously hard to come by if you don't or can't dungeon grind daily already. This in every way seems to scream of discouraging role-play by making level gaps even more readily apparent.

There's no reason to be disrespectful. But I also think you're wrong in assessing that you'll have reduced gains because of this. If you want to avoid it being yourself that end up looking "exceedingly stupid", perhaps you should judge after having seen it in effect?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 05:44:16 PM by Zarathustra217 »

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2013, 05:46:54 PM »
Since we can't see the numbers for XP accrual, nor have any real idea of what character traffic is in an area between resets, I think the simpler conclusion that players will make is if they want to advance their characters they'll have to dungeon.

As a player of a game (an end user) the concept of advancement is a crucial underpinning.  A special draw to this server was the "productivity" of roleplaying, and not just for the sake of itself.

The only character that will RP everywhere without consideration for this system is a level 20.

If someone (an established character) is RPing gainfully and a level 2 walks in the door, the session may as well end right there.
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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2013, 05:51:28 PM »
I'm an RPer, more than dungeon crawler. Much more. But I'm willing to give it a chance.  Since it depends so much on levels in the area, it will be impossible to say what you'll get on a daily basis.  So I'll try it out. Maybe it won't be so bad. Maybe I won't even notice :)
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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2013, 05:54:19 PM »
Since we can't see the numbers for XP accrual, nor have any real idea of what character traffic is in an area between resets, I think the simpler conclusion that players will make is if they want to advance their characters they'll have to dungeon.

As a player of a game (an end user) the concept of advancement is a crucial underpinning.  A special draw to this server was the "productivity" of roleplaying, and not just for the sake of itself.

The only character that will RP everywhere without consideration for this system is a level 20.

If someone (an established character) is RPing gainfully and a level 2 walks in the door, the session may as well end right there.

If that cause people to end their roleplay, there's definitely something wrong with people's mindset. Roleplay should always be it's own reward.

Still, I think you aren't considering the numbers right. If two level 18 sit in a bar and a level 2 walks in, the average will still be 12.66, rounding up to 13, meaning up to level 19 gets full XP. And that's even the extreme scenario.

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2013, 05:58:39 PM »
The more exp is hit the more people are going to worry about it.

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2013, 06:01:15 PM »
The more exp is hit the more people are going to worry about it.

And with that you are trying to say that...?

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2013, 06:07:39 PM »
I think your underestimating your rp xp system Soren, role play might be a reward, but xp is a incentive for quality role play also. That mentality is going be there if theres a chance its reducing somebodys exp when opposite sides of the spectrum come into contact.

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2013, 06:08:56 PM »
You cannot expect to combat a problem by compounding it. If people are too worried about gaining xp. (Which lets be honest. We are.) A system which has the potential (even if only in the minds of the player base) to punish them for speaking to those 'below them', You in turn are reinforcing the worry about progress and as an extension discouraging the feeling that role-play itself is progress.  It does not matter if it is or is not actually the case because we never see the numbers behind it anyway. Anyone who wants to make enough xp to 'keep up' with their peers will then turn to grinding which is already perceived as more profitable. Right now with even exp gains people don't have to be pushed into avoiding other players of certain levels, they can mingle as rp demands it and still feel as though they are getting somewhere without having to be pressured to grind nearly so much.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 06:13:12 PM by RedwizardD »

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Zone-dependent roleplay XP
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2013, 06:13:21 PM »
Ah, but as you probably know, the dungeon XP has a soft cap instituted whereas the RP XP isn't capped in any way. Thus you can't make up for any lower gain of RP XP by dungeoning more instead, even if you wanted.