Author Topic: The price of spellcasting items  (Read 5677 times)

Zarathustra217

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The price of spellcasting items
« on: March 04, 2013, 04:28:05 PM »
This is in continuation of the other topic on prices: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=31739.0

There was a recent change that made potions and torches/flag calculate their item cost based in the same all other items are (priorly, they were made much cheaper to their equivalent of other item types). It does not make sense to revert that part of the change, but it potentially highlighted another issue, namely that spellcasting items in general have too high price/value (e.g. potions, brooches of shielding etc.)

Speaking in favour is mainly that they become too expensive for anyone but the inexorbitantly rich to invest in - and they show up in loot in place of items in place of items of much greater usability.

Speaking against it is that it makes herbalists and carrying along a spellcaster much less important, thus ultimately reducing the codependency of players.

Please use the topic to discuss this. Note that the poll won't be regarded as decisive but only advisory in terms of deciding what we'll do.

Thanks for participating in the discussion - and your help in keeping it constructive.

Dread

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 05:08:47 PM »
I think we all want players to interact within parties, and when I adventure, I prefer to do it in parties for that precise reason, but it can be hard on Joe Q. Noobescu if there aren't spellcasting items around to lend a helping hand. I'm really happy to see these new items in-game, because variety is the spice of life (also, what is more badass than emoting that you're chomping into a human heart before tossing yourself into the fray? not very much).

tzaeru

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 05:47:01 PM »
I tend to represent the school of thought where the more powerful and useful items (such as Firepipe or Brooch of Shielding) should generally be just as attainable for players with mediumish time on their hands as for those with a lot of time.

Most utility items, to me, strike more as being of atmospheric flavor than of any actual use. Many of them are way too rare, or bulky, or just lack particular usefulness. Quintessance is a pretty good example of such an item. It takes a lot of space, is five times heavier than a potion, has only one use (of Cure Serious (or Moderate) Wounds) and is well too rare to really be gathered in useful amounts. I'd like if items such as this were somewhat more common to serve a bit more purpose.

And generally, however rare/expensive an item is that can drop in a dungeon at all or be bought for a lot of coin, there will still be a group of players who has a good and reliable access to it. I tend to consider it fairer that that this group is relatively large and not an exclusive one that requires a lot of time, or very good dungeoning skills, or excellent network of friends. Hence, I overall feel that as it is, many magical items are too rare a sight, if even attainable at all to most.

Uh.. And.. Uh... It's halved, as the root word is to halve... :ontome:
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 05:53:12 PM by tzaeru »
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Lucadia

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2013, 06:06:13 PM »
dont remember last time iv found a firepipe, been a few months when i used be able fine one once a week

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2013, 06:26:43 PM »
dont remember last time iv found a firepipe, been a few months when i used be able fine one once a week
That's probably more due to the fact that there's a lot more items for the system to choose from than there used to be.

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Dhark

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2013, 07:53:37 PM »
Lowered, yes ..maybe not quite halved. The worth of most charged items in the hand of someone who will use should far exceed the gold you will get form said items.

Its tricky, so I don't envy the Devs ect trying to strike a balance

dutchy

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 09:03:20 PM »
quarterd, i do agree with the price change that it went up, but it went up a bit to much.

a large portion of items are no longer accesable to people who do not play every day or those that do not hit as many dungeons they can squeeze in their play time.

as for the spellcaster or herbalists, most spellcasters are way more into damage spells then ward spells, and everyone is a herbalist. (no sarcasm especially the herbalist remark)


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Ramika

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2013, 10:39:44 PM »
quarterd, i do agree with the price change that it went up, but it went up a bit to much.

a large portion of items are no longer accesable to people who do not play every day or those that do not hit as many dungeons they can squeeze in their play time.

as for the spellcaster or herbalists, most spellcasters are way more into damage spells then ward spells, and everyone is a herbalist. (no sarcasm especially the herbalist remark)



Agreed.

Especially the herbalism part - herbs are becoming scarcer (which makes it difficult for people who hunt for their own use) and the player economy is just changing because of it.

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Zarathustra217

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 03:18:18 AM »
Actually, I've only made herbs more abundant lately?

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 03:30:47 AM »
Yeah Soren, they're fine. Dunno what people are talking about.

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2013, 04:00:14 AM »
In my humble opinion, the server is never low magic when caster run freely and can shoot them bolts without costs. If magic items and items with spells costs are high, the more casters you will see, since it is the only thing free. My vote is for reducing the cost in order to allow other then caster classes actually matter in the world.

If you actually want to keep the server low magic you must concider doing either one of below:

1. Add components (to both arcane and divine)
2. Significantly reduce the power of spells, for example:
- bull str, cats grace, etc - reduce to a top of +2 (+3 empowered or maxed) rather then 1d4 +1 (same thing for Blackguard, Assasin)
- clerics ab spells used in order to buff the clerics ab only should either be removed or strongly nerfed - it is dumb to see that a cleric can bufup to higher AB then a fighter/WM
- flame weapon and dark fire should be greatly nerfed to add +1 for every 5 caster levels
- and many more

The list can go on and on. The overall issue is - if you want the world to be low magic, you must manage both ends of the stick. People create casters because non-casters can do shit in almost all places. I've been hearing "Then get a cleric/wizard to your team" so many times that I wanto to puke. I've never heard "We need an extreme rogue/fighter/barbarian/ranger" for that matter. Have you? Shorlty speeking - the items itself are not the issue here, the spells are.

Honoun

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2013, 05:43:54 AM »
quarterd, i do agree with the price change that it went up, but it went up a bit to much.

a large portion of items are no longer accesable to people who do not play every day or those that do not hit as many dungeons they can squeeze in their play time.

as for the spellcaster or herbalists, most spellcasters are way more into damage spells then ward spells, and everyone is a herbalist. (no sarcasm especially the herbalist remark)



Agreed.

Especially the herbalism part - herbs are becoming scarcer (which makes it difficult for people who hunt for their own use) and the player economy is just changing because of it.

The reason for this I would assume is because every man and his dog is gathering them. I have noted though that herbs are more abundent of late.

Actually, I've only made herbs more abundant lately?

They have been but the player base is already adjusting to the increased rate. Some times I wish there was a ban on buying herbs on the server just so I would get a darn good chance of actually gathering a decent amount. ;)

dutchy

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2013, 07:50:36 AM »
Well less herbs are found cause we have so many herbalists.

But let's stay on topic

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Kendaric

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2013, 08:04:12 AM »
In my humble opinion, the server is never low magic when caster run freely and can shoot them bolts without costs. If magic items and items with spells costs are high, the more casters you will see, since it is the only thing free. My vote is for reducing the cost in order to allow other then caster classes actually matter in the world.

Quote
The list can go on and on. The overall issue is - if you want the world to be low magic, you must manage both ends of the stick. People create casters because non-casters can do shit in almost all places. I've been hearing "Then get a cleric/wizard to your team" so many times that I wanto to puke. I've never heard "We need an extreme rogue/fighter/barbarian/ranger" for that matter. Have you? Shorlty speeking - the items itself are not the issue here, the spells are.

This is the main problem. As a non-caster you have to rely on these items unless you want to constantly group up with clerics or witches, which is not an option for every character.


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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2013, 11:50:18 AM »
In my humble opinion, the server is never low magic when caster run freely and can shoot them bolts without costs. If magic items and items with spells costs are high, the more casters you will see, since it is the only thing free. My vote is for reducing the cost in order to allow other then caster classes actually matter in the world.

Quote
The list can go on and on. The overall issue is - if you want the world to be low magic, you must manage both ends of the stick. People create casters because non-casters can do shit in almost all places. I've been hearing "Then get a cleric/wizard to your team" so many times that I wanto to puke. I've never heard "We need an extreme rogue/fighter/barbarian/ranger" for that matter. Have you? Shorlty speeking - the items itself are not the issue here, the spells are.

This is the main problem. As a non-caster you have to rely on these items unless you want to constantly group up with clerics or witches, which is not an option for every character.


If you stay true to your IC then yes. However...some are willing to put IC aside, to get a party together, even for OOC reasons, because the temptation to get XP, loot and whatnot is higher. And this is a huge advantage for those that are willing to overstep their IC towards OOC.
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Lucadia

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 12:48:59 PM »
Most of the spell casting items cant even be used on an another player , so bringing a caster with you does not solve the problem.
Exp retreat
 shield
 Minor glove of invulnerability
 Detect traps
 Knock
 Identify
Ghostly vissage
 Not sure what else I missing
 then there useful items like firepipes that any arcane caster or cleric can emulate also

Bad_Bud

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 01:10:46 PM »
This topic is not about class balance or whether or not magic is too strong.  If it has something to do with prices, fine, if it doesn't, please don't go there.  This is not a rebalance every spell to not be remotely like D&D thread.


Ecnarrot

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2013, 06:01:15 PM »
If magic items and items with spells costs are high, the more casters you will see, since it is the only thing free. My vote is for reducing the cost in order to allow other then caster classes actually matter in the world.

This is a very good point, you will see more casters if the prices remain high. People want to be self-sufficient to some point and it's not very rewarding at this time to not be a spellcaster unless you have thousands of gold, are high level, etc. Non casters have to spend far more gold than casters, already.

Quote
This is the main problem. As a non-caster you have to rely on these items unless you want to constantly group up with clerics or witches, which is not an option for every character.
Another good point which should be considered.
Praugan Offa

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2013, 06:15:18 PM »
Quote
This is a very good point, you will see more casters if the prices remain high.
No..I just listed what most of the spell casting items done, they are buffs that -cannot- be given to players by casters.
Just became either much more expensive or no ability to acquire what non casters had before .

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2013, 06:25:35 PM »


If you actually want to keep the server low magic you must concider doing either one of below:

1. Add components (to both arcane and divine)
2. Significantly reduce the power of spells, for example:
- bull str, cats grace, etc - reduce to a top of +2 (+3 empowered or maxed) rather then 1d4 +1 (same thing for Blackguard, Assasin)
- clerics ab spells used in order to buff the clerics ab only should either be removed or strongly nerfed - it is dumb to see that a cleric can bufup to higher AB then a fighter/WM

- flame weapon and dark fire should be greatly nerfed to add +1 for every 5 caster levels
- and many more


Nerf my spellcasting, and I will nerf you.

If you really want to make the spellcasting classes less popular and more rare? Maybe "make the other classes useful?"

Create a Garda. Start burning witches. I remember a time on this server where using magic was death-worthy and people would mob up against you. That's why Barovia is a low-magic setting. Because mages get killed. It's almost acceptable now to be a mage, "so long as you don't do it in front of the garda." I would play a mage and literally go dungeoning with other players NOT using magic simply because I couldn't be sure that they could be trusted. As a player, i was afraid to cast. Sorcery was a dark secret. So I would gimp myself, using a shoddy crossbow and taking an armor feat so that i could appear to be one o' the normal folk. Price of spellcasting items? Keep them highly expensive. Make magic rare, like it used to be.
 
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HellsPanda

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2013, 06:27:29 PM »
Thats a popular misconception Jessefries, Barovians are phobic, and shun witches, not hunt them down and burn them [unless they show a violent streak].


NOW GET BACK ON TOPIC

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 06:34:57 PM »
I just approve of that misconception. :P
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Badelaire

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 06:43:13 PM »
We do have a resources thread for a reason:

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Barovia
Barovians readily believe in the arcane, though few have seen it practiced. However, arcane magic is only practiced in secret, as most believe it to be a gift granted by demons. Even wandering bards must be careful not to reveal themselves to be anything other than a harmless minstrel. As popular opinion holds that wielders of the arcane are invariably evil, the authorities do little to prevent suspected spellcasters from being lynched.

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Borca
Borcans believe that arcane power comes from contracts with devils and demons, and react to anyone wielding it as anyone would react to someone who has sworn themselves to the service of a demon. However, few families would pass up an opportunity for more power, and covert magicians are often employed. Once a spellcaster is discovered though, they tend to quickly wind up on the receiving end of a lynch mob.

Quote
Darkon
Darkonians lack the superstitious fear of magic that mars so many other lands. The arcane tends to be seen as a force of nature, neither friend nor foe to mortals. However, mages wield great power, and can snuff out life with a word and a motion, and normal people tend to feel a bit uneasy around that sort of power. Darkonian wizards, on the other hand, are taught to associate magic with secrecy and they jealously guard their secrets. Few mages openly display their abilities, only revealing their magic with a specific purpose – often to intimidate, control or destroy the witness.

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Dementlieu
Dementlieuese have a careless disrespect for magic. It tends to be dismissed as an eccentric interest of little value to modern culture. The study of magic is rarely practiced due to it being seen as unimportant and silly. However, the University of Port-a-Lucine has a small arcane magic department, though it is an esoteric science, and rarely focuses on practical aspects. Most mages in Dementlieu are performers, and bards are quite popular. Still, many magic users throughout the Core were trained at the University.

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Falkovia
The Falkovnian government tries to control all things that go on in the domain, and magic is no different.All wizards and sorcerers are required by the state to join the Ministry of the Arcane, and it is a rare magic user who doesn’t, as members of the Arcane Ministry are effectively military officers, with all of the benefits (and opportunities for abuse) that come with such a rank. However, while subsidized by the state, the Ministry is a victim of Vlad Drakov’s distain for the arcane arts, and magic users usually don’t possess as much political power as members of the other ministries.The peasants are fully aware that any magic user is likely to be a corrupt government bully or spy, and treat them as such.

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Hazlan
In the distant past, the Mulan considered the arcane to be a noble calling. When Hazlik came to power, he outlawed the practice of magic – prohibition lasted for almost 50 years. However, following the Great Cataclysm, Hazlik reversed his view, even encouraging talented Rashemani to study magic. The Mulan, always slightly distrustful of their ruler, view his magic program and mages with the same distrust, though many still risk ostracism to study magic . Rashemani usually view magic as a tool of their oppressors, despite the fact that it represents their best chance to rise above their status, and it usually is – most arcane-trained Rashemani are taught to think of themselves as better than their former peers.

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Invidia
Invidians tend to be suspicious and fearful of magic. Most believe the arcane to be a dark, evil force. Mages must be careful about casting spells, lest the town watch show up with swords drawn and demanding explanations.
However, there is a place for the arcane in Invidia. A few hedge wizards practice their art in a few villages, so long as their spells are all helpful and they never charge too much for their services. A few more powerful arcane casters live deep in the wilds, secretly visited by Invidians in search of potions, divinations, or magical vengeance against rivals. Necromancy is the only form of magic that isn’t tolerated, and arcanists suspected of necromancy tend to be lynched quickly.

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Kartakass
Sorcerers and wizards are very uncommon in Kartakass. Kartakans tend to believe any stories they hear about them, and so individual attitudes vary widely, depending on which collection of stories they believe.
Bards are quite common, and they are the backbone of Kartakan society. However, using arcane powers to enhance one’s singing or to put one in a position of power is considered ‘cheating’, and if discovered, public opinion will quickly turn against them.

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Lamordia
Most Lamordians outright deny the existence of magic and unnatural creature or – more commonly – dismiss them as natural phenomena that have not yet been fully explained. Those who do accept the existence of those who can affect these forces (mages and the like) see them as dangerous madmen, playing with forces beyond their understanding, akin to a savage playing with a barrel of gunpowder.
However, few Lamordians ever come into contact with the arcane, as powerful spells are more difficult to cast than in other domains and, as any spellcaster visiting the domain quickly learns, spells sometimes just fail for no reason.

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Mordent
The Mordentish do not deny the potential benefits of magic, they tend to hold arcane practitioners at arm’s length, treating them as potentially dangerous.However, this is not because they fear the practitioners (any more than anyone would fear a person with terrible destructive powers) – rather they fear what the magic user might attract.A common Mordentish proverb goes, “don’t visit evil and it won’t visit you” – those who seek to command powerful energies are also the most likely to be corrupted by these same forces.
No magical schools exist in the domain, and most native practitioners are those whose families could afford hiring a tutor, who are often foreign.

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Richemulot
Unlike in most other domains, magic users in Richemulot rarely suffer persecution for their art. Though most immigrants cling to the attitudes prevalent in their home nations, their children are less likely to hold the same views. The majority of Richemuloise view magic as a tool, albeit a powerful one. Still, most mages tend not to openly display or boast of their powers, because many of the nobility tend to consider magic wielders to be potential threats.

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Tepest
Tepestani consider magic to be a natural force. Unfortunately, nature is actively trying to kill them (albeit slowly and mostly ineffectually), and so they don’t look at the arcane very kindly.
The Inquisition, on the other hand, makes the distinction between sorcerers with inborn talents, and wizards who study the arcane. Sorcerers are seen as inherently, if unwittingly, corrupted by this natural force, though a few sorcerers have found a closely-supervised place in the Inquisition’s ranks. Those who willingly study the arcane are seen as misguided fools tampering with forces beyond their control.
There are a few bards in the domain, and they are treated well by the populace. Their magic ensures that the inquisition is always watching them, however.

Now I think Panda's gonna start yellin' again. I haven' really noticed a great hit to my pocket since I rarely bought from vendors in the first place. There's not always someone around to be able to sell you nice things though so a lot of the playerbase does end up having to rely on the high traffic vendors like the one at the Mist Camp and to be honest the prices now of some of even the most mundane of items is pretty darn high to not be worth the bother.


Honoun

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2013, 02:24:04 AM »
*pops head in door*

I would just like to point out that "Halfed" should be spelt "Halved"


Ok continue with your discussion  :mrgreen:

*quietly exits*

Zarathustra217

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Re: The price of spellcasting items
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2013, 03:11:18 AM »
Uh.. And.. Uh... It's halved, as the root word is to halve... :ontome:

*pops head in door*

I would just like to point out that "Halfed" should be spelt "Halved"


Ok continue with your discussion  :mrgreen:

*quietly exits*

Damn you two - you foiled my plan for making those votes invalid! They've voted for halflings! Muhaha!

(corrected)