So what's the deal with nerfed wyrmling?

[Exordium]

Also, something the class really needs: to be able to shft into something regular for RP purposes...

Like a cat. Or a person.

You're saying the bearded drow or uhm.. the very charming harpie aren't convincing?

From personal experience I'd be tempted to agree that aside of some cheapish tactics (which don't really work very well against monsters that would be worth much for your level) the Shifter class is quite underpowered. However, the amount of work to balance it, make it interesting, give sufficient flexibility, et cetera, would be quite large. I don't think even the humanoid shapes really made you worth it in the dungeons of your level when you get them.

Also to note on the Polymorph Self; The regeneration of the troll and damage resistance of the zombie were open to somewhat overpowering tactics in specific dungeons, aside of not representing the abilities of the spell as they are in PnP.

[granny]

I've just thought of something that might be close to impossible to be implemented, but for it being so cool... I'd like to share the idea:

The shapethief (you look at someone and you are able to copy the body features of the target, kinda Mystic from X-Men).

[Bluebomber4evr]

If we make any other changes to the Shifter class, it will be to make them more like the PnP class from Masters of the Wild or the Master of Many Forms revision of the class from Complete Adventurer.

[Apocrypha]

I've just thought of something that might be close to impossible to be implemented, but for it being so cool... I'd like to share the idea:

The shapethief (you look at someone and you are able to copy the body features of the target, kinda Mystic from X-Men).

If this is done for Shifter, I know Fey'ri could use a humanoid/phenotype skin copier tool.

[Bluebomber4evr]

I've just thought of something that might be close to impossible to be implemented, but for it being so cool... I'd like to share the idea:

The shapethief (you look at someone and you are able to copy the body features of the target, kinda Mystic from X-Men).

If this is done for Shifter, I know Fey'ri could use a humanoid/phenotype skin copier tool.

We won't be doing that for shifters.

[Ternce]

Shifters are really not in a good spot at all. 

Really, for a shifter build to be viable, the server has to be high magic, where it would also be acceptable to just hang out as a weird creature.  You also -need- monk levels and to go hard in the paint with your wisdom score because mechanically, it's really just your wisdom that copies over that matters, and monks get their wisdom added to their AC, and also a movement speed increase.  +5 Gear doesn't hurt either. 

Shifter -can- be powerful, but not here on a level 20 max server, and they really only become powerful once you start getting feats to take Epic shapes like dragon shape and undead shape.

I don't think Shifter is a good fit at all for this server, it's severely underpowered, and extremely disruptive as none of their forms make IC sense for Barovia.

[Ophie Kitty]

Shifter is definitely one of those classes that is hard to balance. I've loved what other servers have done with the class too, but its more appropriate (can pretty much turn into anything viable as an appearance as long as you meet HD requirements) But at the same time, such a powerful tool has been limited to like. 2-3 players in ten years, and two of those people were DMs on the other servers I've tried.

I'm pretty sure, as the team has mentioned countless times before, the class will stay how it is. Its one of those classes that bandwagons with Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout, just doesn't fit the server atmosphere for PotM. (Gotta love those wyrmlings flying around in barovia.)

[Bluebomber4evr]

I'm pretty sure, as the team has mentioned countless times before, the class will stay how it is. Its one of those classes that bandwagons with Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout, just doesn't fit the server atmosphere for PotM. (Gotta love those wyrmlings flying around in barovia.)

The Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout aren't a problem of atmosphere. Those classes require memberships in organizations that don't exist and don't have equivalents in Ravenloft.

Shifters/Masters of Many Forms (as they are called in 3.5) are something I could see as existing in Ravenloft, but would be rare since druids are not common in the setting either. The real problem with the class is that it was made to be a combat/solo class by Bioware when it was far more subtle and nuanced in PnP.

[Ophie Kitty]

I'm pretty sure, as the team has mentioned countless times before, the class will stay how it is. Its one of those classes that bandwagons with Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout, just doesn't fit the server atmosphere for PotM. (Gotta love those wyrmlings flying around in barovia.)

The Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout aren't a problem of atmosphere. Those classes require memberships in organizations that don't exist and don't have equivalents in Ravenloft.

Shifters/Masters of Many Forms (as they are called in 3.5) are something I could see as existing in Ravenloft, but would be rare since druids are not common in the setting either. The real problem with the class is that it was made to be a combat/solo class by Bioware when it was far more subtle and nuanced in PnP.

The 'current' template of shifter does not fit, I mean, considering a large majority of the forms don't even appear in Ravenloft.

And I was speaking in more of a mechanical terms. All three classes pretty much are teh suck or a tool of immersion breaking.

[Ipes]

I'm pretty sure, as the team has mentioned countless times before, the class will stay how it is. Its one of those classes that bandwagons with Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout, just doesn't fit the server atmosphere for PotM. (Gotta love those wyrmlings flying around in barovia.)

I would say shifter is definately not as underpowered as Purple Dragon Knight or Harper Scout. Most of the humanoid shapes change STR and DEX but leave CON to what it originally was, so you can max out con and have a load of health while still having decent strength and dex. The Lizardfolk Whipmaster is possibly the most powerful tanking shape you can get, it gives you a whole slew of tanking abilities that will help you survive, like +2 universal saves and DR. If you multiclassed with say Dwarvern Defender and shifted into lizard whipmaster form you'd be pretty much invincible, not to mention a +3 DC-22 Stunning whip for free.

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

I'm pretty sure, as the team has mentioned countless times before, the class will stay how it is. Its one of those classes that bandwagons with Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout, just doesn't fit the server atmosphere for PotM. (Gotta love those wyrmlings flying around in barovia.)

I would say shifter is definately not as underpowered as Purple Dragon Knight or Harper Scout. Most of the humanoid shapes change STR and DEX but leave CON to what it originally was, so you can max out con and have a load of health while still having decent strength and dex. The Lizardfolk Whipmaster is possibly the most powerful tanking shape you can get, it gives you a whole slew of tanking abilities that will help you survive, like +2 universal saves and DR. If you multiclassed with say Dwarvern Defender and shifted into lizard whipmaster form you'd be pretty much invincible, not to mention a +3 DC-22 Stunning whip for free.

Correct me if i'm wrong here but i dont think the server rules allow taking two prestige classes? if so you could make a hellish stealth build i'd bet with a rogue/shadowdancer/assasin setup with various splits

[Amon-Si]

I'm pretty sure, as the team has mentioned countless times before, the class will stay how it is. Its one of those classes that bandwagons with Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout, just doesn't fit the server atmosphere for PotM. (Gotta love those wyrmlings flying around in barovia.)

I would say shifter is definately not as underpowered as Purple Dragon Knight or Harper Scout. Most of the humanoid shapes change STR and DEX but leave CON to what it originally was, so you can max out con and have a load of health while still having decent strength and dex. The Lizardfolk Whipmaster is possibly the most powerful tanking shape you can get, it gives you a whole slew of tanking abilities that will help you survive, like +2 universal saves and DR. If you multiclassed with say Dwarvern Defender and shifted into lizard whipmaster form you'd be pretty much invincible, not to mention a +3 DC-22 Stunning whip for free.

Correct me if i'm wrong here but i dont think the server rules allow taking two prestige classes? if so you could make a hellish stealth build i'd bet with a rogue/shadowdancer/assasin setup with various splits

You are wrong Correction complete! It's just really, really -hard- to take two prestige classes lol.

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

I'm pretty sure, as the team has mentioned countless times before, the class will stay how it is. Its one of those classes that bandwagons with Purple Dragon Knight and Harper Scout, just doesn't fit the server atmosphere for PotM. (Gotta love those wyrmlings flying around in barovia.)

I would say shifter is definately not as underpowered as Purple Dragon Knight or Harper Scout. Most of the humanoid shapes change STR and DEX but leave CON to what it originally was, so you can max out con and have a load of health while still having decent strength and dex. The Lizardfolk Whipmaster is possibly the most powerful tanking shape you can get, it gives you a whole slew of tanking abilities that will help you survive, like +2 universal saves and DR. If you multiclassed with say Dwarvern Defender and shifted into lizard whipmaster form you'd be pretty much invincible, not to mention a +3 DC-22 Stunning whip for free.

Correct me if i'm wrong here but i dont think the server rules allow taking two prestige classes? if so you could make a hellish stealth build i'd bet with a rogue/shadowdancer/assasin setup with various splits

You are wrong Correction complete! It's just really, really -hard- to take two prestige classes lol.

I stand corrected then! well that certainly opens up my idea for a new rpish build  thankies amon!

[Endlessorrow]

Some setting apropriate shapes.. Gargoyle. umm... Gargoyle,  Ilithid.  Maybey, medusae, drow, Minotaur,Manticore. 

[Smitehammer]

I think it'd be neat if shifters got a widgety thing that let them change their phenotype on the fly, and maybe give them a portable head/color mirror.  Turning into a female elf, or an old man, or a gnome on a whim - that'd better fit the class than the whole 'turning into a minotaur' thing.

I remember hearing on another server shifters got a tool where they could copy the appearance of another creature they encountered in-game, and hold up to 5 appearances, choosing between them.  Could even copy appearances of other characters.  Something like this would be even better!

[Bluebomber4evr]

Turning into a female elf, or an old man, or a gnome on a whim - that'd better fit the class than the whole 'turning into a minotaur' thing.

No, it wouldn't. The Shifter class is supposed to expand upon the druid's wildshape ability beyond animals, which allows them to turn into every creature type at the highest level

It's supposed to be like:
1st level - humanoid shape
2nd level - giant shape
3rd level - monstrous humanoid shape
4th level - fey shape
5th level - vermin shape
6th level - aberration shape
7th level - plant shape
8th level - ooze shape
9th level - elemental shape
10th level - dragon shape

[Draxiss]

YAAAAAY! Another shifter thread!

[ramble]
Whelp, shifter is a pretty cool class conceptually, but its just really hard to implement in a balanced way. If you're going to nerf an aspect of it in the nwn version because it's "too powerful" (or already have) or doesn't comply with PnP, then make it more like PnP!

As an example of how someone made it more sensible (and it follows PnP shifter progression): http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=scripts.detail&id=3453

Of course, there's flaws with the script (notably, you get the supernatural abilities of the copied form, but perhaps an (Improved) Assume Supernatural Ability feat is in order?), but I've tested it and it works pretty well! So, what about something like that?
[/ramble]