Author Topic: Balance Enchanting Boots  (Read 5853 times)

Sidhel

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2013, 07:43:29 PM »
I'd pay twice the -experience- for one of these items.


I'd pay twice that for the first pair, I just don't because I don't have any viable PCs that can participate in enchanting.

At the going rate of exchange for these things, you'd be overpaying by a factor of three to four times, I reckon. I base this statement on the going rate for enchanted weapons and Hector's Treads sold at the Goose auctions.
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aprogressivist

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2013, 07:52:57 PM »
I understood you the first time :P
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Sidhel

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2013, 07:54:58 PM »
There isn't any sort of means you can overpay with experience when it comes to the shear strength of enchanted gear. So what if things aren't perfect, they don't need to get better. The way enchanting works already, people consider the gear "hard worked earned" and less likely to retire.
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Apocrypha

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2013, 08:03:19 PM »
For the XP hit, I personally feel that something competitive should exist for each class type & bonus type.

For my part, the stats provided are just fine for my pure cleric.  The extra AC and Saves are great, the skills are meaningless to him though.

For any stealth build or Rogue, Bard, et cetera, I'd give my left arm and all my AC for a Stealth bonus that is better than what drops.
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Troukk

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2013, 11:29:04 PM »
The way enchanting works already, people consider the gear "hard worked earned" and less likely to retire.

This.

It's becoming waaaay too similar to the endgame of World of Warcraft, or any MMORPG for that matter.
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Lucadia

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2013, 12:04:20 AM »
So by your logic we can only only hope a system that's already part of the server
is not balanced to get PC's to retire? I know your a big proponent to permadeath
but that seems unfair to expect everyone to like it. Enchanted boots
Really seem like least of worries in weather one retires a pc.

Could we get the white stag boots to be +2 universal? Seems fair over the overpowered
+6 reflex.

Kaspar

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2013, 06:20:27 AM »
I guess I would make this thread explosive if I mentioned there's +8 reflex boots you can get through enchantment.

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2013, 06:32:33 AM »
This.

It's becoming waaaay too similar to the endgame of World of Warcraft, or any MMORPG for that matter.

Other than taking yet another swipe at high level PCs, I don't see what this point contributes and is indeed besides the issue. The very premise of the issue raised is that loot that drops makes some particular enchanted gear un-competitive. If you want to gripe about high-powered loot, it seems counter-intuitive to me to undermine the option with the more serious cost (as XP is harder to earn than gold or loot at higher levels).

I also think it's a massive generalisation to talk of character retirement in this context. Speaking personally, my desire to retire PCs is driven less by whether they've hit that magic lvl 20 (none of them have) but more by how interesting and challenging they remain to play. The connection between enchanted gear competitiveness and character retirement is subjective at best.
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Troukk

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2013, 11:19:47 AM »
This.

It's becoming waaaay too similar to the endgame of World of Warcraft, or any MMORPG for that matter.

Other than taking yet another swipe at high level PCs, I don't see what this point contributes and is indeed besides the issue. The very premise of the issue raised is that loot that drops makes some particular enchanted gear un-competitive. If you want to gripe about high-powered loot, it seems counter-intuitive to me to undermine the option with the more serious cost (as XP is harder to earn than gold or loot at higher levels).

I also think it's a massive generalisation to talk of character retirement in this context. Speaking personally, my desire to retire PCs is driven less by whether they've hit that magic lvl 20 (none of them have) but more by how interesting and challenging they remain to play. The connection between enchanted gear competitiveness and character retirement is subjective at best.

This is not a swipe at high level PCs. My main character is becoming a high level himself, so I'd be a hypocrite to do so. I'll try to answer the best way I can without getting too off topic...

It is my personal belief that nobody should be forced on anything, especially PC retirement. If a player decides to play his character and stay out of trouble, he can live forever and that's fine. Another thing completely is to have systems in the game that -encourage- that. This system seems to be one of them. Because even if a character is stagnant and no longer has a story to tell, he can spend days and weeks (months?) just "farming" exp and hoarding these items. There is nothing wrong with that, there are millions of people who do that every day on other computer games... The question we should ask ourselves: "Is that what we want for POTM?".

Not even DMs and developers can force you on how to play, but they can make systems that encourage certain behaviors. For example: RP exp system is awesome because it encourages roleplay. The location exp system is great because it encourages higher levels to leave lower level areas. You can still decide not to roleplay, and you can still stay in Vallaki as a high level, nobody will stop you, but you are encouraged to roleplay with people and leave vallaki after a certain level, and that seems to be a good thing.

Enchanted items, while fun and flavorful, seem to discourage character retirement. And as Lucadia accurately stated, I do believe that character retirement is a good thing, especially when that character has become stagnant and no longer is telling a story.
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aprogressivist

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2013, 11:57:57 AM »
I guess I just don't resonate with your point. I don't think players with high level PCs see enchanted gear as some kind of incentive or reason to keep going when they would otherwise retire. Certainly, the people I know who are interested in grinding out XP for enchanting gear are usually those in the lvl 14 range and have no intention of retiring. So I just don't see that a population of reluctant-retirees exists to justify the argument that keeping enchanted gear competitive versus dungeoning loot encourages said reluctance.

There is perhaps an argument to be made that some enchanted gear is OP, but let's be specific and consistent.

Edit N.B.: it's a lot more work and a lot less interesting to grind XP the higher level you are.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 12:04:00 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2013, 12:56:33 PM »
I can see where Troukk is coming from with the claim enchanted gear is an incentive not to end your character. I agree with this, but I also feel the same way about high-level loot. If my character acquired these +10 MS boots I've been hearing about, I'd feel much less inclined to lose that item than any pair of enchanted boots currently.

It really seems there is a divide of personal opinion as to whether a boost skill points or boost in saves is better. Why not add variety to enchanting to meet a middle ground? For example, a Greater Negative Essence on certain items, such as Ebon Tiger fur boots, would give a greater increase to stealth points, whereas the same boots enchanted with a Magical essence would give better saving throws?

In terms of AC, has anyone considered adding steel boots as a craftable item that can be enchanted? Obviously these boots could be more warrior-oriented with an enchantment of +2 AC, +1 saves, and some discipline.

Balance through variety, I say.

aprogressivist

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2013, 01:36:00 PM »
I can see where Troukk is coming from with the claim enchanted gear is an incentive not to end your character. I agree with this, but I also feel the same way about high-level loot. If my character acquired these +10 MS boots I've been hearing about, I'd feel much less inclined to lose that item than any pair of enchanted boots currently.

But Troukk and Rhymo are aiming this argument at enchanted gear in general, not at ultra-rare loot like these +10 boots. It's not really a specific answer to the question, why are some items of enchanted gear, like Snakeskin Boots, so un-competitive when compared to other enchanted boots or even loot?

Sure, you can swing that argument and make the case that high-powered gear in general is a disincentive to character retirement (not saying I really agree on the case of enchanted, because, as I pointed out above, the sweet spot to grind XP for enchantment is lvl 14, not higher). But that's a broader debate that does nothing to address the internal consistency of enchanted gear compared to itself, or to loot gear.
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MadJKevlar

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2013, 01:42:45 PM »
Staying on topic

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monsinyana

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2013, 01:14:31 PM »
i'm a bit hard core but i say do away with all the magical loot and only have magical things and the best gear available through crafting alone or stuff given out at the end of extended events

i personally would rather loot drops mostly be consumables

and even have the ingredients for crafting be more rare

and id like to see most of the gold go poof.. since the largest cities in ravenloft all are rather poor

but thats just me and i know my opinions are not popular ones.
i have to say ever since i went and played that nwn zombie survival mod i thought it worked rather well where you had to go find 'crafting materials' (i.e. 'points') to make most things.. even basic sling bullets, arrows, and bolts

if we dont have 'stuff' suddenly all the places are much more dangerous and scary to go to.
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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2013, 05:06:40 PM »
well, the ancient dire bear plated do the same thing as the stag plated. . .and for more xp. I really felt kind of ripped off with those boots, expecting maybe, that the stats before enchantment might leave some indication as to the end result, ie fear save and cold save bonus'. Instead it was +6 reflex. . .so terribly disappointing, and so not worth 5k xp.

respawnaholic

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2013, 07:19:27 AM »
I wouldn't mind seeing the enchanted gear getting a make over so that there's some more flavor or to avoid the usual crafting trap of one particular type of something being so much better than anything else in the same field. Honestly on a server with a hard rule about no items granting stat bonuses  I wouldn't mind seeing some of the enchanted gear toned down some since to compensate they all tend to jack skill points and saves thru the roof. A fully kitted fighter type can make themselves functionally immune to knockdown, have saves in the mid 20s for EVERYTHING, and have base un buffed AC in the mid 30s. That's starting to enter hi-magic world territory. I can understand why some of the gear was introduced since it helps fighting and sneaker types remain functional with the holy or mystic nuke classes, but the power creep is definitely noticeable over the past three four years.

ShadyWraith

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2014, 06:52:58 PM »
The quality of some boots in relation to their cost is questionable.

In particular,

Enchanted Ancient Dire Bear Boots
Cost: 3000xp
Essence: Strong magic
Result: +1 universal saves, +1 AC, +6 reflex saves

Enchanted Ancient Dire Crocodile Boots
Cost: 5000xp
Essence: Radiant magic
Result: +1 universal saves, +1 AC, +9 Antagonize, +3 Move Silently

Skill points take a back seat to saving throws every day, at least for me, and Antagonize is not really something someone needs to enchant an item for to get maximum benefit.

I think the Enchanted Ancient Dire Crocodile Boots would have to give a +2 AC bonus (which would not be beyond the theme, considering the bonuses the hide applies to armor) to justify the comparative cost increase.  A +2 AC bonus on player crafted boots is a craft niche that needs filling anyway.


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FinalHeaven

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2014, 06:58:25 PM »
I thought that the massive saving throw bonus was only a new discovery, due to the auto fail on 1 thread?

How is the claim that nobody knew until recently valid, when the last post is from 9 months ago?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 07:01:14 PM by FinalHeaven »

Geiger

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2014, 07:01:48 PM »
You can take this conversation to the thread that I will unlock shortly.

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Re: Balance Enchanting Boots
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2014, 07:13:20 PM »
I thought that the massive saving throw bonus was only a new discovery, due to the auto fail on 1 thread?

How is the claim that nobody knew until recently valid, when the last post is from 9 months ago?

It may surprise you to learn that I and other key developers on these forums have access to 50+ sub-forums. We also all maintain full time occupations meanwhile. There's always a chance stuff slips under the radar unless it's brought directly to us as a priority concern. We have no chance of reading all that are written on these forums.

Those are the terms for a voluntarily run project. I hope that suffices as an answer.