"Emissary of the Legion"

[Silverfox]

Just been thinking away while at work, and got onto pondering Clerics and their function. Now, essentially all Clerics in Ravenloft are Clerics of Conviction, as I understand it, given the Dark Powers and the silence of the gods.

So, as a crazy and slightly homebrew thought, would it be a feasible concept to roll a Cleric that essentially venerated the "Legion of the Night" and worked in secrecy and the like to oppose the Church of Ezra and sow death, discord, madness and corruption .

I'd be thinking trickery and death as the primary domains.

Would like to hear peoples thoughts on the idea, and see if anyone would like to contribute.

Think as Satanists to Christianity, to the Ezrites

[APorg]

I don't think there's any canonical equivalent per se, but the Fifth Heresy storyline is (as I understand it) very much something along those lines... you can do a search on the forums for info on that

[Kendaric]

The Legions of the Night is more or less a catch all term applying to both the creatures of the night (vampires, werebeasts, wights, wraiths/spectres, etc,) as well as mortals who actively assist them (in case of 4th secters it applies to basically anyone not of the faith). It's not an actual entity that could be venerated like christianity's Satan/Lucifer. The governing entity would probably be the Mists of Death, which may or may not equate to the Dark Powers.
By spreading corruption, discord, etc. you already do the work of the Legions, regardless of your actual deity.

[Silverfox]

The point is someone who actively venerated the concept of the mists being evil and intelligent,and the legion its pawns. The idea is not to venerate Ezra as I gather from the Fifth entries, or just abject servitude regardless of theology.

The idea is someone / people that actively worship these things and seek to corrupt. Not Larry McLawgiver, unwitting pawn of the Night.

[APorg]

Read up on the theology of the Fifth Heresy, it's actually pretty interesting.

But the answer to your question is, I believe, no; there's no coherent Mist-venerating counter-Ezrite theology. Though it would be an interesting new heresy to flesh out.

[Exordium]

What characters mostly can't actually do, is to worship the Dark Powers (and as such, I doubt neither the Mists as an intelligent, evil entity) and receive spells of anykind. It's of course DM's call, but I doubt Dark Powers were interested in granting spells to someone who worshiped the 'Legions of the Night', except when there is a wider religional structure around it (such as it being a twisted offshoot of Ezra's Church).

Though, if you're looking for a death-worshiping Ravenloft religion with some more occultic twists, you could check out the Eternal Order or the cult of Nerull.

[Silverfox]

Perhaps people have missed the point I was trying to communicate for the most part. This was not a query if something existed, it was an idea to throw down, discuss and flesh out.

The only real question involved would be "Is it feasible that they could cast as per the normative for Clerics of Conviction?"

Elsewise yeah the idea is crazed mist worshipping anti ezrites. Not Leira worshippers by a long shot.

Already play Nerull cultists. I'm looking more at something deliberately wooly and unexplored.

[APorg]

I think Exordium puts his finger on the main issue. The Mists of Death are a somewhat accurate metaphor for the Dark Powers, and you're not allowed to worship the Dark Powers. This is mostly because the central metaphysics of Ravenloft is designed to test the faith of clerics. All religions should have their tests of faith to be interesting; in the case of the Ezrites, for example, the main test of faith is often how to live up to the teachings of Ezra while being trapped inside a corrupt cult of power that is the Church itself.

The problem therefore is that if you hew too close to factuality you may not have these faith-defining crises.

Still, there's definitely room to create some sort of mythos and heretical dogma that venerates the Mists of Death as long as you steer clear of the above. It depends on where you want to explore.

You could explore:

- a heresy of Chaotic alignment that rejects Ezra's Lawful teachings and instead puts emphasis on personal morality and the importance of individual judgement, seeing the Mists as the embodiment of these.

- a heresy of Lawful Evil alignment that is an even darker reflection of the 4th Sect: believing that it is their job as emissaries of the Legions to test faithful Ezrites to ensure they stay true and faithful, and killing unbelievers: the wolves that make sure the herd keeps fit and healthy.

[Budly]

The Legion is pretty unorganised as far as I know. From playing my Fifth Ezrite character I gathered that they will destroy themself in the end. So I see the Legion as a pretty strong force of anarchy and chaos. The Mist probably give no damns about it also.

And with the Fifth, we have seen a few diffrent views of it. Even if Aleyi and Marle both followed the "Fifth doctrine/Dogma" they both had very vast, diffrent views of it.

[Dread]

I think the closest you'd probably get to serving the Legions would be through being a priest of the Eternal Order. You're talking about a state religion that was all about appeasing the dead so that they do not rise when the Hour of Ascension comes. I think the Eternal Order, at least amongst the Darkonese sect, would be looked at as pretty much quislings and toadies to the Legions of the Night.

The heretics of the Fifth Revelation had their own spin on things, but I think information about them is a FOIG thing. The thought behind a tried-and-true worshipper of the Legions is an interesting one, though, and the idea could be explored.

[Budly]

I think the closest you'd probably get to serving the Legions would be through being a priest of the Eternal Order. You're talking about a state religion that was all about appeasing the dead so that they do not rise when the Hour of Ascension comes. I think the Eternal Order, at least amongst the Darkonese sect, would be looked at as pretty much quislings and toadies to the Legions of the Night.

The heretics of the Fifth Revelation had their own spin on things, but I think information about them is a FOIG thing. The thought behind a tried-and-true worshipper of the Legions is an interesting one, though, and the idea could be explored.

I just have a feeling it be like praying to AO. You get no response or sign of "gifts" back for the dedication and prayers put to it.

[Silverfox]

Hence Cleric of Conviction covering that base. Their faith in an idea is so strong, they access the divine elements of the weave unassisted by Gods. I imagine on this instance it could be seen as being humoured by the Dark Powers as you further their objective of testing the pure of heart.

This is of course hypothesis and speculation. I don't claim OOCly to know anything about the Dark Powers. Thus this discussion I suppose.

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

*cracks knuckles*

As a resident expert in Ezrite Heresy! J/k. This is kind of spoiler-riffic.  Anyway, the Ezrite storyline really fosters possibilities for Heresy, as Apro pointed out.

I am personally of the opinion that the Dark Powers want you to think you still worship Ezra, even once they have taken over sponsorship.  For the concept you suggest, it is really only pertinent if you begin as an Ezrite and learn the theology.

Then when somebody says "Ezra is equal and opposite the Mists of Death," I don't see why you couldn't ICly start worshipping them, in secret, from within the fold.  It'll grow organicly and you might receive some DM Guidance/input. 

Game on.

[Silverfox]

I suppose that would facilitate one of the motions that I think such a character would pursue, but ehh, half the point was to not be an Ezrite lol.

That said, I didn't have any intentions of playing the character. I'm just thrashing out the idea. Maybe inspire some folks.

That and I was bored at work lol.

[BahamutZ3RO]

On the topic of Clerics worshiping the Mists/DPs and getting spells... A recurring thing I've noticed in scouring the interwebs is that Clerics from some settings don't actually need a deity to be granted their spells. In some cases the spells are manifested by devout belief in an ideal and their own willpower.

Right off the WotC website and referencing a handbook:

A cleric could have no deity at all (see page 32 in the Player's Handbook). A cleric with no deity can have any alignment, but the cleric's choice of alignment can affect which clerical domains the cleric can choose (see the next section).

A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see the detect evil spell description for details), no matter what the cleric's alignment actually is. For example, a neutral good cleric of a lawful good deity has auras of law and good.

A cleric without a deity still has an alignment aura if he chooses the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Lawful domains. The aura matches the domain (or domains).

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

Understanding and being a part of the church roleplay/theology is more or less a necessity in creating the most relevant heresy as far as engaging the story in a meaningful way.

But I can assure you that Ezrites won't consider you an Ezrite once they know!   

Oh, yeah, that no-devotion thing.  In Pen and Paper I treated it like worshipping a demigod, you only get to 6th level spells sponsorship.  Anyway I think no-devotion is a homogenized, bland sort of thing that worshipping ANY god would be better than.  Or worshipping an Entire Pantheon would still be better, but that's just my opinion.  I'm also in that school of thought that Atheist PCs have no god to sponsor attempts to ressurect them.

[Dobian]

Well the formal church of Ezra in its current state is rife with corruption and has elements in it who represent the church but in fact are doing the work of the Dark Powers.  The Dark Powers don't care what you call yourself or what institution you belong to, and consider the church a contrivance.  The current incarnation of a fifth sect heresy could follow either path, spread good in the name of Ezra, or spread violence and discord against the official church.  But to the Dark Powers that's no different than Gundarakites fighting Barovians, it just has a different face on it.  Heresy is something that the church itself defines for it's own self-preservation.  True heresy is when you violate the principles of the faith itself, not the institution people construct to represent the faith.  So a heretic can be anywhere, both outside the church and in it.  That's my roundabout way of saying that you don't even need a Legion for there to be a contest of good and evil moderated by the Dark Powers.  You can just have Ezrite on Ezrite.

[Silverfox]

I suppose that would facilitate one of the motions that I think such a character would pursue, but ehh, half the point was to not be an Ezrite lol.

That said, I didn't have any intentions of playing the character. I'm just thrashing out the idea. Maybe inspire some folks.

That and I was bored at work lol.

The point of the discussion is not infighting within the Ezrites, but an external anti-Ezrite concept. Why on earth does everyone keep saying "Just make it an Ezra heresy"?

[RedwizardD]

I believe most 'legion worshippers' are expected to be arcane casters (necromancers) or priests of the Eternal Order or 5th sect. Casting priests are actually supposed to be pretty rare here as is. To develop the kind of dogma and faith that would be required to attract the dark powers for "casting permission" would likely be very difficult. I believe the repeated mention of these two groups are intended as an easy 'well this might be close enough' without meaning any terrible offense to your idea. Which by the way seems like it would be good if you could work around the mechanical issues of not having a proper existing religious entity.

[Ophie Kitty]

..You can pretty much pick an evil deity that doesn't like Ezrites. Or no deity at all if you aren't a cleric. I'm involved with some anti-ezrite/clergy RP in general as of this moment.

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

We're trying to give you advice, since "external anti-ezrite concept" is basically every other religion.  Perhaps best to go with the Eternal Order of Darkon.

My Sentinel hates Ezrites and will kill them if presented ANY opportunity, for their Invasion of Darkon and opposition of the Eternal Order.  The Sect of the Hour of Ascension closely mirrors the Time of Unparalleled Darkness so there are some things you can do with that, but I've found that open conflict isn't quite as rich unless it has depth.   The richness and subtlety engaged by heresies is where the real fun is - but if you don't understand the theology and over all plot of the church, I wouldn't expect the most exciting developments from it.  If you want to engage a faction in PVP or roleplay primarily, there are definitely options.

[Silverfox]

Like I said, I've no plans of ever making such a character. I know quite specifically what idea I'm talking about. I'm just trying to avoid deflections from people that are saying "Well why don't you play X instead? It's similar."

This is not for a PC that I will ever roll up.

[Dobian]

Since there is no Lucifer of the Legion, you would be more like a lone wolf, possibly a sociopath who has taken to hating the church for whatever reason and who thinks werewolves and vampires are cool.  You're antisocial and hate organized anything.

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

Need a "alrighty then" GIF, lol.

I think the suggestions provided here in this thread were thoughtful and not deflecting.  The bottom line is, anyone who is interested in creating Conflict Roleplay with a setting faction should probably do a little bit of homework.  I can easily tell the PCs who have done a modicum of research based on whether they say "Legions of the Night" instead of simply, "Legions," and this emissary concept would more appropriately venerate the Mists of Death.

Anything short of that due diligence and respect toward other players, to me, smacks of an attempt to troll other people who are having fun.

[Silverfox]

Apologies if I came off as confrontational. I realise the intentions were to be helpful, I was just growing frustrated as it felt like it was deviating from the original point from where I'm sitting.

Not even interested in creating conflict with the Ezrites heh, like I said, literally just batting an idea around.  I'm not actively trying to troll anyone though, and I am a little offended by the implication. I wouldn't have bothered posting if that was the point of the idea.

Using "Legions" because initially I was posting quicky, off a mobile phone, on a bad connection, and at work.

MoD/LotN, I didn't have a huge focus on specifics at the time. Idea badminton to refine something is always good.