Author Topic: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.  (Read 7216 times)

Bardboy

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2013, 09:51:49 AM »
It's not quite easy to get gear back when we can't physically see the items, unless the player holding a pair of vardo gloves  is emoting hiding them or somesuch, we'd never know or even have a go at trying. :oops:
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Troukk

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2013, 10:11:24 AM »
To give one faction items that others do not have equal access is pretty much the definition of unbalanced factions.

Yeah it's unbalanced, but it makes sense and helps the setting. Canon factions don't have everything going for them. The fact that they are restricted by canon means that recruiting can be harder. Being my partner in crime, you know better than anybody how huge and awesome a faction can become when you are not restricted by canon and let your creativity run loose. However, canon factions are necessary to the server, and I personally tip my hat to the guys that play them, because they enhance the setting for us all. They deserve their perks.
Oh I wasn't trying to complain, merely make a note that the old adage, "Life isn't fair" prevails. That being said directly under that sentence was an easy ic solution to make up for it, which is a much easier solution due to them being such a tiny faction with few allies.
I'd be tempted to argue that canon/not canon factions are roughly equivalent in stature and recruiting. It's the charisma icly/oocly of the recruiters and the fame/infamy that the faction accrues that lead to higher numbers. Vardos seem like they are rather selective, and for good reason, but that's mostly on them. We shouldn't lead a mentality of quality over quantity simply for the nature of poor/selective recruitment in terms of items.

Hmmm... Good points made there.

And sorry for cutting your quote, I just hate long quotes and rather just paste the sentence I'm trying to answer with my reply.  :D
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dutchy

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2013, 10:13:16 AM »
Is it not better to see the items as a whole instead of just items ?

Like someone else said the vardo got their Busnis  so it is reasonable they have better gear.

The guards have less better gear but they are just a step up from farmers with a pitchfork aswell as harming a guard can really be a bad thing so as a whole they are far more stronger and better suited then the vardo just not item wise.

Have to see the big picture instead if just a part of it

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dutchy

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2013, 10:20:42 AM »
Also I am seeing the willingness to have it all equal
That's a mistake the equal mindset doesn't work and is not possible

If someone had a sword of awesomeness doesn't mean you will and can get one aswell. Cause if you wanted that sword aswell you need to do the exact same things as the person. With the sword did.

So stop thinking to equalize it all. There's a reason why some are employees some are managers and others world leaders.   

It's a fantasy mindset thinking ingame it should be an ideal world where everyone gets along and has access to the same gear. It does not work like that.

That's my reaponse to the that's the definition of unbalanced Factions

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Bardboy

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2013, 10:30:05 AM »
i think the balance of power is pretty good, the mechanics of factions have worked for as long as the server as been, willingness of the players involved bringing it to life. All the gear in the world will not stop a guard from dragging a Vardo to the prison and torturing him o.o Or an Ezrite from declaring a witch hunt on us etc etc. If there was a MAJOR oversight and someone actually held throne over others, I would totally agree with the whole deal. But items are just tools to be used to promote roleplay.
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Zhernebog

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2013, 10:52:44 AM »
So stop thinking to equalize it all. There's a reason why some are employees some are managers and others world leaders.  

It's a fantasy mindset thinking ingame it should be an ideal world where everyone gets along and has access to the same gear. It does not work like that.
I'm not sure if we had a language barrier derp above but I don't buy that we shouldn't try to achieve balance simply due to some people being reincarnated as destined world leaders, and some fated for poverty. Especially in a magical fake online world we all participate in.
I absolutely refuse not to help find a middle ground, that just promotes resentment and ignorance leading to more threads like these. The issue I have is that if you wanna have one faction with strictly better stuff than another, it promotes elitism and discontent. If your faction readily needs the best stuff to set it apart, maybe it's time to think about rehauling the faction and find ways to make it more special?

As for ic reasons why they get the best stuff, sure, absolutely. Just give any Nurell cultist gear best suited to killing the hell out of people, and don't give it to other people. This is, of course, sarcasm, but that's what makes statements like the previous posts somewhat...skewed? They're notsomuch reasons as excuses, imho.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 10:56:07 AM by Zhernebog »

aprogressivist

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2013, 10:56:23 AM »
Well, there is a faction that gets gear to kill the hell out of everybody... the Ba'al Verzi. But that's a hard faction to join.
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Zhernebog

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2013, 10:57:17 AM »
Well, there is a faction that gets gear to kill the hell out of everybody... the Ba'al Verzi. But that's a hard faction to join.
They can have the hidey kill the hell out of everybody gear. We just want the better openly stabby bits.

dutchy

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2013, 11:08:57 AM »
What we got now is the middle ground.

Vardo are made to set out and look for a certain thing everywhere and anywhere the gear reflects it, the guards are to keep peace if they fail they have a tool called castle ravenloft

Then there are the holy crusaders of Ezra. These have armies that dwarf most other they are made to fight or made support those that fight in a holy manner so when crossing those there is hardly any realm you could hide in

I'm not saying I don't see your point. But I'm saying your point is invalid

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Zhernebog

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2013, 11:18:47 AM »
What we got now is the middle ground.

Vardo are made to set out and look for a certain thing everywhere and anywhere the gear reflects it, the guards are to keep peace if they fail they have a tool called castle ravenloft

Then there are the holy crusaders of Ezra. These have armies that dwarf most other they are made to fight or made support those that fight in a holy manner so when crossing those there is hardly any realm you could hide in

I'm not saying I don't see your point. But I'm saying your point is invalid
This is not a middle ground, this is a "deal with it" mentality that simply isn't good enough of an explanation to not provoke resentment/raise discussion. If they are designed to have equipment that is strictly superior, or equipment that others cannot acquire/craft themselves, it provides unbalance.
Vardo are set to search about for a very specific item, so are many adventurers, this doesn't mean they should immediately receive the top tier gear to do so. Especially when that item they search for shouldn't require 60% bags. It isn't that heavy. ;D
Ideally, you'd have recruits of the vardo be superior at their job(slinking about, unlocking things, searching for that key item and droppables to sell to keep up the storefront) when they enter the faction. They shouldn't require advanced gear that sets them apart from other nonfactioners, they should be more advanced at the job than nonfactioners, hence why they were selected to be recruited.

That being said, garde need ravenloft to be scary, no question there. And Ezrites are usually player driven in the droves, I loved when the fourth(It was the fourth, right?) went around that deserted castle near the outskirts and stirred up trouble. Great rp.

Feronius

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2013, 11:39:03 AM »
I don't think many people care for the fact Factions (PC or DM) get uniforms or items, really.

At least the thing that worries me personally is that some of the gear described is as good, if not better, than the highest gear available.
I'm not sure if Faction gear should "outrank" the best possible gear PCs that aren't involved in a faction can get their hands on.
I don't own a level 20, so I could be wrong and there might be much better stuff out there. But I believe you do get my point here?



If it were only flavour or rather basic items, I couldn't care less.
But I believe OP has a bit of a point, not when it comes to the number of items, but the "power" of them.
(And a typical Ravenloft discussion btw. Half the posts here sound like excuses or unrelated matters, avoiding the actual issues raised.)
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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2013, 12:11:04 PM »
So let' see... The organized, official factions that has existed in their domains  false History shouldn't have gear thats a tad better or unique. Compared to the lowly Outlander mercenary that adventures far and wide like several others, who gain levels quicker due to smashing dungeons, and being generally filthy murderous Hobos. Who's own lands harbor for more powerful items that usually get thrown in the trash. Here's a way to fix that, make a character and join an official faction. Actually bother to be a part of that faction so you can see it from said faction's point of view of occupation to see WHY their equipment is made with such bonuses.

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Ovidiu_Lacusta

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2013, 12:27:42 PM »
I don't know, man, it'd be cool if weight reduction was used in Faction gear.  Otherwise I gimp myself to use it in favor of something better.  Well, that's happened before.

dutchy

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2013, 12:28:50 PM »
Ok what about guards then ? They are stuck with the uniform  their palette is stuck as in it can't be changed and nobody can duplicate the uniform.

That means the guards have a uniform and are stuck with the bonuses. While every none Factions person has better gear then they will ever have

That's the current situation.

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Zhernebog

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2013, 12:32:12 PM »
So let' see... The organized, official factions that has existed in their domains  false History shouldn't have gear thats a tad better or unique.
The rest of your post is strawman so I'll simply refute this point.
No they shouldn't.

You shouldn't be able to get anything mechanically superior than the highest you can get out of the faction, joining the faction at that point isn't a choice any longer as it renders other factions inferior. This is not good design.

Current situation on garda:
They're the garda with access to every mercenary on the server the moment a bounty is posted and off duty they can wear whatever. That's like complaining that the cult robes don't absorb fireballs.
Not to mention the garde from the beginning of discussion are an outlier. They have access to castle ravenloft. You're not allowed to complain when you can summon the BBEG at a whim.

aprogressivist

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2013, 12:50:17 PM »
I think this entire discussion is going downhill fast... >.<

Some overpowered Faction gear was probably a mistake from over-enthusiastic Devs but hopefully it will be kept in check by player and DM vigilance. Let's not start having debates about "balancing" a situation with so many variables as to be unpredictable...
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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2013, 01:01:53 PM »
I think this entire discussion is going downhill fast... >.<

Some overpowered Faction gear was probably a mistake from over-enthusiastic Devs but hopefully it will be kept in check by player and DM vigilance. Let's not start having debates about "balancing" a situation with so many variables as to be unpredictable...

Yeah, this exactly.  I would say that (at least in the case of the Vardo) it could provide good RP.  Track down that lost gear!  See a rogue picking a tough lock?  Ask to see those lockpicks.  They will likely refuse, but it's not about winning the situation anyways, and it might make them re-evaluate how "worth it" that stolen gear is.

Zhernebog

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2013, 01:40:33 PM »
I think this entire discussion is going downhill fast... >.<

Some overpowered Faction gear was probably a mistake from over-enthusiastic Devs but hopefully it will be kept in check by player and DM vigilance. Let's not start having debates about "balancing" a situation with so many variables as to be unpredictable...
Just because a few people cannot behave civilized does not call for the entire conversation to be so casually dropped. It's disrespectful to the people involved who bothered to make posts involving the opinion of this matter.
Debating will lead to an outcome that is mutually pleasant for everyone involved and the only thing lost is time, which, if we're playing NWN, we have plenty of.

Ovidiu_Lacusta

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2013, 01:52:43 PM »
The situation with the gear and the "dev enthusiasm" that went into the extremely high powered Vardo gear has long represented an unspoken core value.

RVT has always had draw of players who wanted the good gear, it's an appetite that is catered to, so it's no wonder the faction has benefitted from steady interest .   To join any other faction we're saying, "Well obviously RP is more important to you than being competetive, here's some junk, way to be a star"

Bardboy

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2013, 02:09:46 PM »
The situation with the gear and the "dev enthusiasm" that went into the extremely high powered Vardo gear has long represented an unspoken core value.

RVT has always had draw of players who wanted the good gear, it's an appetite that is catered to, so it's no wonder the faction has benefitted from steady interest .   To join any other faction we're saying, "Well obviously RP is more important to you than being competetive, here's some junk, way to be a star"

 :? I'm not liking where this whole thread is headed.

Rose is a bard, half the gear isn't even for her. The gear does not matter. At all. The intrigues, the encounters with people. Heck I can't even wear half the stuff.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 02:11:47 PM by Bardboy »
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dutchy

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2013, 02:13:35 PM »
guards who go out at night and become vigilantes have a serious risk in doing so, they can lose their jobs or get punishments thats close to torture.

not to mention their names can be ashamed by the city they serve in.

as for vardo's   why bother?  honestly theres better gear out there so a vardo beeing a vardo can buy better stuff from their own store.

the only thing they do have that nobody else can get is the 60% bags

the outfit fit the vardo faction as the poor peasant junk a guard wears.

heres a fun fact:
the guards never had helmets   yet at some point a guard pc decided to ask around  dm's took notice requests got placed on the faction forums, and voila a helmet was born to go with the standard gear who i think got made by a gnome.


what im trying to say you can change things but do it difrantly, also these items only look bad if used bad and if seen bad        thats a glass half full or empty thing if you ask me.

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2013, 02:34:16 PM »
One thing I'd personally like to see is alternatives to some of the Vardo gear pieces in the loot table. With the Vardo cape and Vardo boots there are counterparts, while with the Vardo gloves and +3 lockpick daggers there are not (No, the rogue gloves and +1 daggers are not comparable, all of those give just +1). I understand the point of having rogue gear for the rogue faction, it's otherwise hard to gear up a rogue. I don't think any other class is nearly as gear dependent.

Feronius

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2013, 02:35:49 PM »
Actually bother to be a part of that faction so you can see it from said faction's point of view of occupation to see WHY their equipment is made with such bonuses.


I am and have been part of factions, both DM and player ones.
Still I can't see why it needs to be better than some of the best gear in-game though?
You might want to name the reasons why if you're going to type it in caps lock, so it might actually be a constructive post.

Some factions don't venture out and dungeon, like the Garda, but those are not the ones with the great stats on their gear.
The ones that are being spoken of here mostly (Red Vardo Traders, Ezrites, etc.) do as much dungeoning as any other PC.



I think Norture got the point I was trying to make, as was the original poster. And I doubt you could say he's biased.
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Misted_Horror

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2013, 08:19:06 PM »
No longer in the faction but let me say this. In no way shape or form is a majourity of Vardo items good. Any decent rogue knows that half of the outfits are trash except in -very- unique ways. Eg, we still use shadowed armour, or enchanted armour, we still use Wary Treads, we still use a cloak of silence, we use everything you guys use. Anyone who thinks the Vardo is about gear.. is full of it. Anyone that joins purely for the gear, pretty much gets their stuff taken from them and kicked, if they don't hand it over and leave.. we contact a lot of people about getting our property back/actually engaging in RP to remove their funds from them (eg, Alexi contacting the Port-A-Lucine bank about the Port RVT getting their money from the PoA bank, 2+ mill).

A lot of people need to realize that the RVT has also been a disadvantaged faction to be in until Vinc and Sera started looking after it somewhat, 0% Dm attention, which means every other faction kicks it in the nuts, whilst they can't do anything. Also note that RVT rules are pretty harsh if a character has their 'own plans', and anyone caught to be doing anything else will be spied on, if it crosses a line then they'll most likely get fired. I'd also like to mention why everyone has a stigma against the RVT Icly. People are potatoes that talk about things in /whisper out in the open. If you want to be secretive, buy 4-5 items, a candle and an amplify scroll, go in to a room with a locked door. If you detect someone in the room listening in to you, kill them. It's not too hard. Imo, RVT items aren't too OP, and I had a chance to look at the majority of them without having a need for them at all. If you can't break DC 35 locks at level 5 as a rogue, something is wrong.

LackofCertainty

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Re: Faction Gear, Faction Balance, and a few ideas.
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2013, 08:58:10 PM »
One thing I'd personally like to see is alternatives to some of the Vardo gear pieces in the loot table. With the Vardo cape and Vardo boots there are counterparts, while with the Vardo gloves and +3 lockpick daggers there are not (No, the rogue gloves and +1 daggers are not comparable, all of those give just +1). I understand the point of having rogue gear for the rogue faction, it's otherwise hard to gear up a rogue. I don't think any other class is nearly as gear dependent.

I think this is the core of what this argument is about.  It does not matter if a faction hands out strong items to their dedicated members, but there should always be alternatives available in the loot table.  As powerful and wealthy a faction the RVT is, there should still be items they need to hunt down out in the wilds.  If nothing else, it gives them something to track down, or another opportunity to do business with other PC's who have found said items.

Most of RVT items have loot table alternatives, so it's not the biggest issue, but some simply don't have alternatives of comparable power.