Author Topic: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.  (Read 4074 times)

Varyell

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Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« on: January 13, 2013, 11:03:58 AM »
I've wrestled with the idea for a while, and finally decided to submit it. It's been an issue with many a character I've wanted to create, longed to create, and had no greater desire than to see such a character be made within the server. Though I find myself all but damned with any such attempts to make a convincing start when I'm slotted as low a level as can be. After all, I have a major desire to make a believable villain. Something beyond what most monster player characters can achieve; either by poor timing, someone who jumps the gun in order to be the hero, or just because it might take more than a little time to get the proverbial ball rolling.

I came to the conclusion that it all stems from the same problem, something more than one person I talk with on a daily basis agreed with me upon. The starting level for Ravenloft: PoTM is just far too low, and needs be lifted to at least double what it is now.

Now, before I'm whipped, scourged, and crucified for saying this, read me out. I've given some thought to this, and only ask that a modest amount of thought be given to the idea as well. After all, if the server might benefit from it, why dismiss it outright?

I ask because a properly evil character will probably never side with the heroic and statuesque people we see practically flooding the daily life of the server. You've seen them, the people who can chase after a vampire in the dead of night and in the wilderness. Disheartening, I know. A proper villain will not go out and risk themselves so openly, but neither will they get close to those they might very well be poised against later in their story. Not to mention, many of the villains I had in mind would be Caliban from their very beginning, which in no way is a gentle start for anyone. After all, you are poised against all of the surface world, unless you somehow have someone who takes pity upon you. Though who will risk being seen alongside a freakish abomination? After all, it's easier just to kick the Caliban into the gutter, rather than even socialize with them. Especially with the emergence of new Garda players (though I applaud this, I love all of them).

What I am begrudgingly admitting is the opening for a villainous character has no prospect, due to the facts laid against you. After all, you are expected to level up on your own practically, especially if you can't organize people who can fall in line with your plot and be trustworthy enough to see it through. I've had such things happen with little to no warning nor roleplay to hint at their sudden about-face or disappearance. Such can be disastrous to keeping a villain's plot moving, and thus why a villain must be able to stand on their own even slightly, though earlier on as a character.

As far as I've been able to try and press making a villainous character, I've yet to be able to implement one without having time restraints, low level, or sheer boredom steal me away from such plans. After all, when you strive to make something more than a flash in the pan as a villain, you need time and resources to get things done. Time I can try to gain, though the fact resources (in this case, levels) are nigh impossible to attain with the XP gain system being slowed to nearly a grinding halt for players like myself.

I do understand some players have no issue with this, after all, they're able to load more time into the server. I've even at one time offered to have my level twenty character done away with in order to have half of his levels, or even a fourth of his levels granted to a new villainous character I might have more fun playing. My request, then, was met with a flat denial. I'd make such a request a second time, though with how things seem to be flowing, I cringe at the idea of sacrificing an old character I might be able to use for more than a paperweight in the future.

After all, I would love create a creature who might evolve to be a villain as insidious and corrupting as some of the greatest of greats of fictional writing. Such as...


Though it seems I am forced to be yet another one of the crowd, slotted alongside heroic figures who insist on being the best and friendliest of them all. Such as...


So, then, any thoughts I might have sparked from offering this idea, do share. Though being constructive would be the best, as even with a negative response you can strive to offer valid points as to why you see things that way.
"With all due respect, sir, I was sent here to perish at the vanguard of this inevitable conflict. I simply refuse to participate on their terms or yours."

Major Tom

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 11:09:53 AM »
I more or less concur. I was working towards having an interesting antagonistic character who was racist towards non-elven characters; the hope was to create a player faction that actively pursued negative relations out of a loathing for humans in particular, by actively forming bandit raids and ambushes in the forests, and thus representing the grudging elven natives who had since grown to despise being placed under the thumb of humans in Barovia, and mistreated or sometimes just outright killed by some of the more extremist ones. Alas, I've more or less abandoned that whole concept since then based on the simple fact alone that I'd be forced to abandon all pretense of the character just in order to 'survive' on the server, simply due to the presence of there being no likeminded characters on the server, as opposed to an abundance of 'super-friendly murderhobos' who sit around a campfire, singing songs of love and peace and tolerance - at least up until a monster showed up. That's when they formed a death mob that rivaled a gibberling horde.

So my options thusly would be those of forcing myself to associate with elven characters who like humans and would oppose my character's evil-based mentality. Or forcing myself to associate with humans, who my character would want to vomit at the sight of and stab them on the first given opportunity. Just because that'd be the only way to gain the levels necessary in order to actually ACT OUT the character's principles in the first place. None of which seems entirely favorable towards portraying an antagonistic character on the server that isn't an instant 'kill this guy now' case.

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Legion XXI

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 11:18:20 AM »
   I can't say I agree with you.  Everybody always seems to be on this "oh my evil character just can't make it" thing, and it makes no sense.  If you want to play some kind of socially retarded murderer who can't function in normal society without killing people on whims, expect to be persecuted.  You don't need special treatment.  The same goes for a completely strict and unrelenting hero.  Extremes of anything will always stand out.  Also,  I find it strange that people seem to think high level + evil = great villain.  Some of the best and most influential evil characters I've interacted with are not the ones walking around laying waste to everything and laughing as lighting strikes in the background and organ music plays for no other reason than they can.  It takes more than use of raw power to make a villain that anyone other than you can enjoy.  We have great AI for mindless murdering, I like to think as players we can expect a little more from one another.  If you are going to isolate yourself with crazy behavior, then expect to have a harder time grouping up.  That's common sense and I don't see how this had become an issue to "fix ".   Also, people who spend more time on the server will get more out of it.  That's fair.  I don't think that needs to be fixed or the bar needs to be lowered.

APorg

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 11:20:04 AM »
I don't really think your problem is a lack of evil, villainous PCs. (Seriously. There's loads.) I think your problem is a lack of effort in trying to find the existing evil PCs who might be willing and capable of helping your newly fledged villain become what you hope him to be.

Of course by their nature, evil PCs are self-serving backstabbing bastards who might use you as a pawn instead of helping you but such is the nature of the beast.

As for the "superfriends"... are we even playing on the same server? I play a Good-aligned Wizard who spends her time conspiring and trying to make events go against the villains, and meeting only limited success precisely because there's a lot of evil, self-serving PCs that she knows she can't trust.
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APorg

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2013, 11:21:05 AM »
  I can't say I agree with you.  Everybody always seems to be on this "oh my evil character just can't make it" thing, and it makes no sense.  If you want to play some kind of socially retarded murderer who can't function in normal society without killing people on whims, expect to be persecuted.  You don't need special treatment.  The same goes for a completely strict and unrelenting hero.  Extremes of anything will always stand out.  Also,  I find it strange that people seem to think high level + evil = great villain.  Some of the best and most influential evil characters I've interacted with are not the ones walking around laying waste to everything and laughing as lighting strikes in the background and organ music plays for no other reason than they can.  It takes more than use of raw power to make a villain that anyone other than you can enjoy.  We have great AI for mindless murdering, I like to think as players we can expect a little more from one another.  If you are going to isolate yourself with crazy behavior, then expect to have a harder time grouping up.  That's common sense and I don't see how this had become an issue to "fix ".   Also, people who spend more time on the server will get more out of it.  That's fair.  I don't think that needs to be fixed or the bar needs to be lowered.

+1 Well said.
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Varyell

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 11:24:52 AM »
I apologize if the meaning of how I intend to roleplay such villains did not get across. I fully intend a character who consists of guile, wit, and precise motives. Where as all the mental fortitude in the world does nothing when the 'big damned hero' walks up and promptly hits you with their best shot.

You do realize that seeking out 'evil' characters is perhaps the most foolish move that some characters can attempt? The first sign of weakness from a would-be competitor? They'll either snip them off, or drive them in circles to amount to nothing. This isn't about out-of-character intent, it is simply thus that evil rarely and almost never works together.

I get the feeling you did not read the entire post through, and therefore I find myself inclined to say this:

The Shitzkrieg has begun, it seems.

I'll leave this thread alone until I can find someone who actually offers a constructive remark beyond trying to belittle an idea I sought to offer.

Ah, and this isn't Facebook or Google's rating system, keep your +1 comments to yourself, unless you can actually offer input beyond chiming in with your chum friends.
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APorg

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 11:31:33 AM »
There's lots of evil PCs who might be happy to work with you co-operatively on an OOC level. Ask around.

But it seems you're not interested in my opinion because I disagree with you.

Thank you for being honest, at least.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2013, 11:34:21 AM »
I apologize if the meaning of how I intend to roleplay such villains did not get across. I fully intend a character who consists of guile, wit, and precise motives. Where as all the mental fortitude in the world does nothing when the 'big damned hero' walks up and promptly hits you with their best shot.

You do realize that seeking out 'evil' characters is perhaps the most foolish move that some characters can attempt? The first sign of weakness from a would-be competitor? They'll either snip them off, or drive them in circles to amount to nothing. This isn't about out-of-character intent, it is simply thus that evil rarely and almost never works together.

I get the feeling you did not read the entire post through, and therefore I find myself inclined to say this:

The Shitzkrieg has begun, it seems.

I'll leave this thread alone until I can find someone who actually offers a constructive remark beyond trying to belittle an idea I sought to offer.

Ah, and this isn't Facebook or Google's rating system, keep your +1 comments to yourself, unless you can actually offer input beyond chiming in with your chum friends.

Sorry dude, but I'm inclined to agree with Aprogressivist and Legion. It isn't impossible - or even particularly difficult - to get yourself established as a villain. I watched quite a few do it during NCW through manipulation and positioning. You'll need to put your ear to the ground and do a bit of sleuthing, and it'll oftentimes mean making deals and working with people you don't want to - but that's part of the fun of being a villain with a different mindset from everyone else.

In the end, the difference between level 2 and level 4 is negligible if you don't go through the motions of establishing your character in the server and making the kind of connections he's going to need to be a villain - and you don't need levels to do that.
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Angry Nerd

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2013, 11:35:15 AM »
I have a suggestion, Varyell. This may not be what you're interested in, but it is something that sprang to mind. What about submitting an application for a subrace? That way, you start off with maybe not a higher level, but some boosts to your stats and things? Just a suggestion, and maybe you've thought of it.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2013, 11:36:16 AM »
I have a suggestion, Varyell. This may not be what you're interested in, but it is something that sprang to mind. What about submitting an application for a subrace? That way, you start off with maybe not a higher level, but some boosts to your stats and things? Just a suggestion, and maybe you've thought of it.

ECL Characters are like Hardcore Mode for PotM. I wouldn't recommend it. :P
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HellsPanda

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2013, 11:38:18 AM »
Starting at a high level seems to be counter productive to the type of villain you claim to want, Scorpius as shown in the episodes of his background started as a weak person, with a strong will power. Who managed to build connections and become a major character in the Farscape universe.

Major Tom

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2013, 11:44:38 AM »
Starting at a high level seems to be counter productive to the type of villain you claim to want, Scorpius as shown in the episodes of his background started as a weak person, with a strong will power. Who managed to build connections and become a major character in the Farscape universe.

He also didn't die in one hit. He was also partnered with likeminded individuals amidst the Peacekeepers, who shared his views on other races in the galaxy, as well as his antagonism for the Scarran race (he was also a freakin' ECL-type character, who has five times the physical strength of a Peacekeeper, even at a weakened state, plus the natural ability to detect lies due to his Scarran heritage, as well as survival instincts out the anus, all of which made him more powerful than your usual 'starter'). The point Varyell is making, that so far the standard-issue naysayer assemblee has ignored due to not bothering to read the thread, is that some characters don't mesh with other characters; and that forcing them to be buddy-buddy chum-chum breaks the character's premise and pretense and thus negates the entire point of making them in the first place. But hey, let's just repeat ourselves by recycling the 'it's not that hard' argument, over and over again.

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Varyell

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2013, 11:45:23 AM »
As I mentioned, this isn't about out of character consent or support, it is what the characters themselves would do and why a follower of Tiamat wouldn't team up with a necromancer of Vecna.

Your input came across as abrasive, to say the least, and the fact you assumed this was my way of asking for some form of crutch even more so insulting. I have three higher level characters, and I play them all quite often. So I can get along on this server just well, though the fact stands those three characters are good-aligned or sociable enough to be the sort who can easily mesh with various adventurers.

You do realize this isn't a way of helping just the evil-aligned characters? This is a way for -any- character who finds it hard to mesh with others on an in-character level. Usually because of harshly convicting ideals, or open appearance would slate them as a Caliban.

Thanks for the subrace idea, though my idea was trying to be one that helped many players who find this to be a problem when trying to make new characters.

I'll be retreating from this, though, as it seems I've attracted the full wrath of those who seem intent on misinterpreting the desired idea. After all, this isn't a way to bypass establishing yourself, it's a means for all players to have help getting out of this problem. I am not asking for this for myself, for as BahamutZ3RO said, ECL characters are the equivalent of hardcore mode.

Did I mention one of those three characters of mine are ECL +1? I know hardcore mode firsthand. And I do feel insulted the first idea was virtually put across as: 'LoL stop whining about not being able to playz'.
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Iconoclast

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2013, 11:48:04 AM »


Look, when someone argues, just argue without labeling them as "standard issue naysayer has ignored due to not reading the thread."  You don't know who has sincerely read it or not.  Simply keep to a clean form of argument or don't post at all. 

APorg

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2013, 11:53:04 AM »
What "abrasiveness" and "wrath" are you speaking of? You mean the posts where people are politely disagreeing with your personal experiences based on their own personal experiences?
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Varyell

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2013, 11:56:26 AM »


Look, when someone argues, just argue without labeling them as "standard issue naysayer has ignored due to not reading the thread."  You don't know who has sincerely read it or not.  Simply keep to a clean form of argument or don't post at all. 

As opposed to those who pretty much slated my idea off as if I was asking for pity or for a handout?

I agree with Major Tom, I do see these same people immediately diving into ideas and practically badgering the original poster into submission. I won't be whimpering out as they intend, and I won't be seen as some inept player who hasn't put their time into playing on the server. I have for the past seven years, and I've seen this server in highs and lows, and by far I can say people like those you are conveniently overlooking when they spout of abrasive comments are the cancer that kills off players with the grit to offer ideas for the server.

I apologize if I misread somewhere, but..

   I can't say I agree with you.  Everybody always seems to be on this "oh my evil character just can't make it" thing, and it makes no sense.  If you want to play some kind of socially retarded murderer who can't function in normal society without killing people on whims, expect to be persecuted.  You don't need special treatment.

Though that sums up where I see you beginning to insult me, and thus my response to..

What "abrasiveness" and "wrath" are you speaking of? You mean the posts where people are politely disagreeing with your personal experiences based on their own personal experiences?

Now try to tell me you weren't trying to be abrasive.
"With all due respect, sir, I was sent here to perish at the vanguard of this inevitable conflict. I simply refuse to participate on their terms or yours."

Legion XXI

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2013, 12:00:35 PM »
Look man, this is going downhill fast.  I'll post something purely helpful.  PM Torukk on the forums.  He runs a faction your character would fit right into.  Now we all take a deep breath.

APorg

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2013, 12:02:48 PM »
It's not very serious of you to complain about people being "abrasive" when your opening post paints people as "Superfriends", your next their arguments as "Shitkrieg", and labelling them as nay-sayers, etc.

You will notice that nobody here has attacked either yourself or Major Tom for expressing their opinions. We have merely expressed disagreement with your argument and your conclusions.

You, on the other hand, have resorted to attacking the people who disagreed with you, and not their arguments or conclusions.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Iconoclast

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2013, 12:03:11 PM »
If there is good reason to reopen the thread later, it will be.

[Locked]

eyeofpestilence

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2013, 12:03:51 PM »
Changing the start of the bell curve will make no difference. It changes the start for all, so a new said villain concept is still at an equal start.

Being a "good" memorable villain takes time. It takes risks of relationships. It takes support from a network of those relationship which is created over time. Which is why I'm confused over the newish 6 month MPC limit, but that will be discussed at a later time on a differing thread.




Thanks DW!

Iconoclast

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Re: Suggestion: Higher level startoff.
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2013, 12:21:33 PM »


Take a break you two.  If you can agree to simply keep to a clean form of argumentation, then the thread will be reopened.  If you want to send in a complaint with regards to my locking of the thread or handling of it, please feel free.