Author Topic: Feint  (Read 6519 times)

Snowflame

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Feint
« on: January 13, 2013, 10:59:52 AM »
I noticed PoTM has it's own server specific list of feats. I've been experimenting with ideas involving rogue for a long time, I know I've wanted to make a rogue character for a long time but I can't find something that pleases me or hasn't already been done. I would like to suggest that maybe a feat be added to flavor them up a bit more.

Feint is an ability in Pen and Paper where a user may bluff (I suppose in this case it might be influence or antagonize or maybe even parry) their opponent into striking them in a place where they trick them into believing they are vulnerable. This trick leaves the opponent without their dex mod for one round leaving them open to sneak attack if their opponent would fail the charisma based check.

I always liked the idea in other DND variants and Neverwinter Nights 2 as well as table top. It's not often that you see the rogue as a sort of cocky knife fighter or dueling charlatan as opposed to being someone who is simply "dodgy" and likes to hide and steal things.

aprogressivist

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Re: Feint
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 11:57:11 AM »
It would be cool to see this; I have always loved Feint-based rogues myself. But unfortunately NWN 1 rolled in all those subtleties of the pen and paper game into the Knockdown feat...
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Snowflame

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Re: Feint
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 05:32:57 PM »
It would be cool to see this; I have always loved Feint-based rogues myself. But unfortunately NWN 1 rolled in all those subtleties of the pen and paper game into the Knockdown feat...

I always felt that knockdown was more inline with bull rush and trip. I mostly suggest this cause I'd like to see more variety with characters, it's one of the things that first drew me to dungeons and dragons tabletop. The fact that if you sat down looked at the numbers, then combined that with clever character creation. You could make almost any type of warrior you'd like to see. Thing is Rogues here are mostly skill monkeys or highly dexterous ninja type people.

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Re: Feint
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 05:34:15 PM »
Moar variety is always welcome but...

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a moment. Who is going to do it and how?
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aprogressivist

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Re: Feint
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2013, 05:41:15 PM »
Oh yeah, totally in agreement with you. I merely meant that Knockdown was the original NWN developer's way of doing "fancy combat moves" like Bullrush, Feint, etc.

It'd be cool to see more diversity of such things but you really need a developer to chime in to say how feasible it is...
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Re: Feint
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 05:46:34 PM »
aprogressivist, is bull-rush the move where you quickly charge your foe? if so I would adore such a thing. then fencers could do fleches! :D  :allears: :cloud9:

Snowflame

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Re: Feint
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 05:50:17 PM »
Oh yeah, totally in agreement with you. I merely meant that Knockdown was the original NWN developer's way of doing "fancy combat moves" like Bullrush, Feint, etc.

It'd be cool to see more diversity of such things but you really need a developer to chime in to say how feasible it is...

Well you know, that's what the thread is for ;)

A lot of things don't really work with the system. Although feint should work fine, pretty much it's a standard action that provokes attack of op (unless you have greater feint) if they fail a will (?) then they are considered flatfoot for one round receiving no dex bonus to AC.

This games only weakness I felt was general lack of classes. They got the entire PHB but that was it. With the PHB you can do a lot, but at the same time only so much. One of the few spots were NWN2 actually beat out 1 was in options. Warlock would have been super sweet to play in NWN1 but i'm not gonna get off topic :P

Just sayin' diversity makes a lot of the game and RP aspect of characters. After all no two people are the same right? so should every rogue be exactly the same? Either it's a Skill monkey/dex build or it's a cheap way for fighters to get tumble ranks :P

Snowflame

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Re: Feint
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2013, 05:52:46 PM »
aprogressivist, is bull-rush the move where you quickly charge your foe? if so I would adore such a thing. then fencers could do fleches! :D  :allears: :cloud9:

Not quite. A charge is a charge. Charges could probably work here but they'd be buggy and annoying as hell... Charge wasn't even added to PRC or NWN2.

A Bullrush is like a charge... only you charge them do damage and you push them back five feet.

In PNP you would do this to push someone either into a group of enemies or perhaps off of a cliff etc etc...

It wouldn't knock them down necessarily though. A Trip is what we would refer to as NWN's Knock down.

Speaking of trip... I really wish they added spiked chain to this game :(.

Zhernebog

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Re: Feint
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2013, 08:15:05 PM »
Feint is an ability in Pen and Paper where a user may bluff (I suppose in this case it might be influence or antagonize or maybe even parry) their opponent into striking them in a place where they trick them into believing they are vulnerable. This trick leaves the opponent without their dex mod for one round
This is a neat trick.
leaving them open to sneak attack if their opponent would fail the charisma based check.
This is broken.

Actually, to expand upon it, it'd be like knockdown but for bards. Could it apply to all classes? That'd be fun.

Snowflame

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Re: Feint
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2013, 08:43:23 PM »
Feint is an ability in Pen and Paper where a user may bluff (I suppose in this case it might be influence or antagonize or maybe even parry) their opponent into striking them in a place where they trick them into believing they are vulnerable. This trick leaves the opponent without their dex mod for one round
This is a neat trick.
leaving them open to sneak attack if their opponent would fail the charisma based check.
This is broken.

Actually, to expand upon it, it'd be like knockdown but for bards. Could it apply to all classes? That'd be fun.

Well yeah any class could "Feint" an attack. That's always an option but other class types typically don't do it. It's mostly for rogues so they can get SA in combat without needing HiPS or invisibility or Darkness. It's pretty damn useful the downside being that it only works on certain targets (Means you can't do this with like animals and things, basically it's like a mind affecting spell). I wouldn't say too broke either because it does leave you open for an attack when you do the "Feint".

Feint really only serves combative bards who want to hit higher, although really I wouldn't see why a bard would bother as they already get quite a bit of AB bonus from their songs, and charismatic rogues who are more like charlatans and tricksters and things like that. Talkers not stalkers. It's also worth noting that Feint is not usable by ranged weaponry. You have to be using a melee in order to make use of it. I'll link the SRD since I kinda did a poor job of explaining feint other than "Cha rogue get da sneak attack!"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint

Alright seems I had feint's specific rules almost wrong completely. It would seem that it would be a Bluff Check (Influence/Antagonize) vs a players Sense Motive check (Spot/search?). Against non humanoids -4 to the DC against animals with only int 2 and basically really dumb stuff -8 and against unintelligent creatures it is impossible. It's a standard action and with improved it becomes a move action.

As for other classes I could see doing it would like... Paladin but... It kinda kills the image of a paladin to pull a feint. Nothing in the rules that says he can't do it but, it just seems odd. Like you got this knight in shining gold armor that fights for justice, fairness, and all that goody goody crap. I sincerely doubt a Paladin would ever try to pull a cheap shot simply because of moral ethics. I mean that's literally what Feint is, it's a dirty trick. A Blackguard I might see doing this since evil usually goes down really low just to get their way. RP wise I just wouldn't see paladins doing it, but RAW (Rules As Written) they can.

Maybe this "Feint" could be a reworking of the "Dirty Fighting" Feat. You know the one that nobody takes cause it's dumb. unless of course you're playing 1-5 (but who does that?).

Pretty much I see this as being a good feat for characters who "want to win" and don't care about morals necessarily, or a deceptive duelist.

TheJustLawOfShamash

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Re: Feint
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 02:23:47 PM »
This would definitely require something to prevent you from spamming it.  This also raises the tricky question of what counters the bluff check, as we don't have PnP's Sense Motive.
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Snowflame

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Re: Feint
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 04:15:30 PM »
This would definitely require something to prevent you from spamming it.  This also raises the tricky question of what counters the bluff check, as we don't have PnP's Sense Motive.

Well it's a standard action to use the ability which provokes an attack of opportunity. With the improved it would negate that. so pretty much that's sort of a counter via spam cause it also gives enemies an extra attack, when you do it. A good NWN/POTM change would be having it be a full round action regardless, with the improved only negating the attack of op. but that's a bit rough imo.

The counter for the bluff would probably be spot. Which makes sense. Sense Motive is a Wisdom based skill where you try to figure out someones intent... Spot I think would be the closest thing because, you might be able to see through their bluff so to speak. I believe in NWN2 it's also spot since I don't remember them adding the sense motive skill there either.

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Re: Feint
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2013, 07:43:18 PM »
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.
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Snowflame

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Re: Feint
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 08:11:27 PM »
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.

Taunt is similar but not quite the same either. A taunt is when you anger someone to be reckless... and they lose some AC. It's more of the fighters variant of this.

"Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful?"

There was just a thread about a guy who manages +41 listen with no ranks but with all items. Rogues in general are actually a very weak class, their only worth something to be scared of when they actually manage to get the jump on a squishy character, and even then. it's not too hard to actually survive a sneak attack. Rogues in general tend to be a rather weak class. While they may get a lot of damage on sneak attacks, once you do that one attack... that's pretty much it. Rogues are really only equipped with that and a high amount of skills. Think of them as the "Batman" class. Lots of gadgets and mundane utility, however unlike Gotham's caped crusader they hold various weaknesses including a lower AB progression, d6 hit die, access to only certain arms and armor without blowing off a feat on them, and of course VERY weak saving throws. Rogue saving throws are so weak, they actually die to phantasmal killer. Typically in PNP and in Neverwinter it's kind of considered "embarrassing" to die to phantasmal killer. This is because you have two chances to save versus death, the two save throws are Fortitude and Will. For most one or the other is actually the classes strong save. Rogue get's none of these as a strong save, instead he get's reflex which really only helps with traps (that I hope he is capable of disarming...) and Wizards who cast fireball spells. That's a waste though since Improved Evasion just kinda ignores fireball to begin with.

As a combatant rogue is a rather weak class. This ability would also only really appeal to rogues that are actually charisma based. Can a rogue do it all at once? not really... Rogues already have slight Multiple Ability Dependency. Requiring Dex, Str, Con, Int. They need all of those in some way shape or form. typically one has to get dumped out... so you have dexterity based rogues and that's pretty much it. It's jsut an alternative function for rogue all in all.

Ipes

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Re: Feint
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2013, 08:27:01 PM »
Yep, a Rogue only has that one chance to do the sneak attack and then thats the only damage he'll get off when his opponent engages him.  The low AB makes it so that you really can't knockdown effectively. A charisma based feint feat or skill that would make players vulnerable to backstabs would add more flavour to the class without making it any more powerful, becaue to get the charisma you'd have to dump stat another class to avoid severe Multiple Ability Dependency.

Amon-Si

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Re: Feint
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 08:38:56 PM »
I have found rogues to actually be the most dangerous class on the server, in both PvP and PvM, when played effectively and to their strengths.
When I step out of the temple with my high level sorceress, It's rogues that I worry about, not clerics who I can dispell into uselessness, Not fighters who I can freeze in their tracks, and not unprepared mages who are statues in waiting. It's the rogue that I can't see and who can knock my health down in one hit, and if they are hasted with two weapons, they can get a good three or more sneak attacks off at once. A class is neither weak nor strong, how you play that class counts.

*Addendum*
Don't get into a straight fight with a rogue and then try to compare them to a fighter.
I saw one of those greatest warrior simulation shows the other day that annoyed me.
It had a spartan fighting a Ninja, the Spartan won because for some crazy reason the ninja didn't just poison his ass.
THAT's the deal with rogues.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 08:48:17 PM by Amon-Si »

Nurlithion

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Re: Feint
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2013, 09:42:02 PM »
I don't feel we need a new system for this. My fighter/rogue char Soren wasn't a very good fighter by itself, since I "wasted" points in INT and CHA to justify the personality I wanted for him; I leveraged this by putting lots of points into the social skills and UMD, and now he's a very capable warrior. Antagonize is easily boosted with items, if you're willing to sacrifice some other bonuses, and it gets up to -6 AC on the enemy, which is usually enough for a Knockdown after two or three tries, which then sets you up for a full round of sneak attacks on the enemy.

Yes, this is much more work than just charging in and attacking, but that planning and manoeuvering until you have the upper hand is what playing a rogue is all about.
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Snowflame

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Re: Feint
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2013, 09:52:31 PM »
I have found rogues to actually be the most dangerous class on the server, in both PvP and PvM, when played effectively and to their strengths.
When I step out of the temple with my high level sorceress, It's rogues that I worry about, not clerics who I can dispell into uselessness, Not fighters who I can freeze in their tracks, and not unprepared mages who are statues in waiting. It's the rogue that I can't see and who can knock my health down in one hit, and if they are hasted with two weapons, they can get a good three or more sneak attacks off at once. A class is neither weak nor strong, how you play that class counts.

*Addendum*
Don't get into a straight fight with a rogue and then try to compare them to a fighter.
I saw one of those greatest warrior simulation shows the other day that annoyed me.
It had a spartan fighting a Ninja, the Spartan won because for some crazy reason the ninja didn't just poison his ass.
THAT's the deal with rogues.

I'm not quite sure you know how this works then :S... not even the dual weild should really matter.

Level 20 a rogue gets 9d6 SA. When doing dice it's best to use the average, the average of a d6 is 3. pretty much half. 3*9= 27 Damage. plus their weapon which is more than likley a 1d4 or 1d6. For this example we will say he munchkined out and went short swords or rapier. so 3. chances are he has little to no strength but i'll give him a 10. so he doesn't negative.  basically... 30 damage, flat footed. against a level 20 rogue for an SA.

How much con does your sorcerer have? O.o ...I don't suppose your sorceress is an elf either? Rogues are probably the most vulnerable to magic. even if they do hit you with sneak attack. My wizard was almost assassinated one day. I got hit by a dual weild sneak attack from a player either a level over or equal to my level. did a good bit of damage, didn't kill me. If it was just him I would have ended him right there and then, but it wasn't so I fled. While running away I left behind Evards Black Tentacles. Rogues have crap saves there fore paralyzed and took multiple damage. the chase scene ended with me getting Barley Injured from sneak attack, going down to injured when shot 2-3 times with a crossbow. That rogue on the other hand almost died as I was fleeing. I wasn't talking about a straight fight either...  Rogues need the shadows but once they pull their sneak attack. That's it. you are aware that they are there and then they gotta bolt. Running around corners trying to spam stealth doesn't work, if you have HiPS that is good but you need to apply for a prestige class in order to get HiPS. Straight up vanilla rogues kinda herped. It sounds as if your sorceress simply doesn't have enough constitution. At least from my understanding because not even a level 20 sneak attack is enough to eliminate all of, you know... not even just my wizard. Some of my level 2's can survive that!

To say there is no such thing as a weak nor strong class is, for lack of a better word "bull". There's always has been a meta, and powerful classes. Classes were even purposely made more powerful than others simply because it's the general universal lore of the world. The man who is magic is going to be stronger who isn't. That's just facts, it's just flat out numbers. You even said it yourself. Your sorceress can just debuff clerics, you can handle fighters just fine, it's over my head how you can't handle rogues. Especially if you can handle clerics, whoa re amazingly powerful on PoTM for a huge variety of reasons which I don't need to explain since i'm sure a good ton of the player base can explain "Melee Cleric".

Casters run the game. That's how it's been and it's been purposely written that way because that is simply how the game was designed. It was designed for role playing not for balance. If the concern was balance then you'd be better off looking into a more competitive game or world of warcraft or something. Clerics, Wizards, Sorc's, and Druids all have an answer to the mundane classes. They are very powerful characters, that's why when I DM tabletops I take people who play those classes into very good consideration to make sure everyone else has a chance to role play some and feel useful even though the wizard can do just about everything the rogue can only better.

I have heard of that fighting show, and that episode. Deadliest Warrior or some crap. People get overly buttmad about that show all the time. There was also more than one fight. The Ninja won every time he successfully got the jump on the Spartan, in a straight fight however the ninja would lose simply because he couldn't bypass the Spartans shield. Oriental Blades were sharp enough back then to cut through flesh like a hot knife through butter, however they really weren't meant for handling armor that much.

Going to just say however, we are getting horribly off the topic of "Feint" as an combat maneuver. It probably won't make that huge a difference to be honest. It will simply create a new type of play style for rogue that would be more fitting for certain types of characters. Since nobody is going to power dex and charisma. you pick one or the other. You could probably munchkin it out, but are we not here to role play?

More Options = More Possibilities. Imagine if you were only allowed three classes, out of the bunch we have access to. Then imagine if you only had access to: Power Attack, and expertise as combat maneuvers. Kinda boring, no disarm? no knockdown? Classes, Feats, and Class features serve as tools for helping you grant powers and playstyles that fit your character. There is always a downside to adding too much stuff. Just think if the only three playable classes were Rogue, Wizard, Fighter; and that feat choices were much smaller. Oh and no multiclassing. It's what makes Dungeons and Dragons so revolution. You build your own hero/villain.

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Re: Feint
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2013, 09:53:39 PM »
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.

Taunt is similar but not quite the same either. A taunt is when you anger someone to be reckless... and they lose some AC. It's more of the fighters variant of this.

"Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful?"

There was just a thread about a guy who manages +41 listen with no ranks but with all items. Rogues in general are actually a very weak class, their only worth something to be scared of when they actually manage to get the jump on a squishy character, and even then. it's not too hard to actually survive a sneak attack. Rogues in general tend to be a rather weak class. While they may get a lot of damage on sneak attacks, once you do that one attack... that's pretty much it. Rogues are really only equipped with that and a high amount of skills. Think of them as the "Batman" class. Lots of gadgets and mundane utility, however unlike Gotham's caped crusader they hold various weaknesses including a lower AB progression, d6 hit die, access to only certain arms and armor without blowing off a feat on them, and of course VERY weak saving throws. Rogue saving throws are so weak, they actually die to phantasmal killer. Typically in PNP and in Neverwinter it's kind of considered "embarrassing" to die to phantasmal killer. This is because you have two chances to save versus death, the two save throws are Fortitude and Will. For most one or the other is actually the classes strong save. Rogue get's none of these as a strong save, instead he get's reflex which really only helps with traps (that I hope he is capable of disarming...) and Wizards who cast fireball spells. That's a waste though since Improved Evasion just kinda ignores fireball to begin with.

As a combatant rogue is a rather weak class. This ability would also only really appeal to rogues that are actually charisma based. Can a rogue do it all at once? not really... Rogues already have slight Multiple Ability Dependency. Requiring Dex, Str, Con, Int. They need all of those in some way shape or form. typically one has to get dumped out... so you have dexterity based rogues and that's pretty much it. It's jsut an alternative function for rogue all in all.

Rogue a weak class? No. They can pull off their sneak attack -every- attack if they are smart. Rogues are not meant to be tanks, that has been the case since they were called "thieves" they are support classes. They are the tricks, the picks, the sneaks, the disarmers, the cheats. They are not tanks. Rogues, like fighters, have to multiclass. And basicing an entire argument off them falling to Phantasmal Killer is hardly a good point given they entirely ignore any spell with a reflex save. Let's not forget that only three levels in Rogue is pretty much sufficient to run down most trapped corridors and laugh at the entire collective trap collection. If you're worried about your saves vs. spells put some points into spellcraft (I AM! I'm even paying the cross class for it too. It's worth every point). Some of the most powerful characters on the server are rogues or splash rogues. Who? Amaril, Cervantes, Jinx (If buffed), SHINZO! Woo, for Shinzo!

All Rogues need to be devastating is someone else attacking the same target or improved knockdown. They don't need more abilities. If anyone does? It's Fighters.

Edit: Crippling Strike. Nuff said.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:59:51 PM by What does the scanner see »
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Snowflame

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Re: Feint
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 09:57:04 PM »
I don't feel we need a new system for this. My fighter/rogue char Soren wasn't a very good fighter by itself, since I "wasted" points in INT and CHA to justify the personality I wanted for him; I leveraged this by putting lots of points into the social skills and UMD, and now he's a very capable warrior. Antagonize is easily boosted with items, if you're willing to sacrifice some other bonuses, and it gets up to -6 AC on the enemy, which is usually enough for a Knockdown after two or three tries, which then sets you up for a full round of sneak attacks on the enemy.

Yes, this is much more work than just charging in and attacking, but that planning and manoeuvering until you have the upper hand is what playing a rogue is all about.

That is a very good point. It's actually quite a bit of work, and could work out for them altough such a manuever isn't necessarily in their favor. Rogues don't usually get an extremly good ab. They have medium AB progression like clerics and druids do. A knock down is made with the attack roll vs the opponents discipline. It could happen for a rogue not as likely. Such a maneuver also keeps an enemy from attacking should you successfully knock them down. where as a feint doesn't prevent them from attacking, it just confuses them into attacking you in such a way that it would leave their defenses vulnerable, so they can still smack you around. but yes I see what you mean.

Ipes

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Re: Feint
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 10:02:17 PM »
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.

Taunt is similar but not quite the same either. A taunt is when you anger someone to be reckless... and they lose some AC. It's more of the fighters variant of this.

"Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful?"

There was just a thread about a guy who manages +41 listen with no ranks but with all items. Rogues in general are actually a very weak class, their only worth something to be scared of when they actually manage to get the jump on a squishy character, and even then. it's not too hard to actually survive a sneak attack. Rogues in general tend to be a rather weak class. While they may get a lot of damage on sneak attacks, once you do that one attack... that's pretty much it. Rogues are really only equipped with that and a high amount of skills. Think of them as the "Batman" class. Lots of gadgets and mundane utility, however unlike Gotham's caped crusader they hold various weaknesses including a lower AB progression, d6 hit die, access to only certain arms and armor without blowing off a feat on them, and of course VERY weak saving throws. Rogue saving throws are so weak, they actually die to phantasmal killer. Typically in PNP and in Neverwinter it's kind of considered "embarrassing" to die to phantasmal killer. This is because you have two chances to save versus death, the two save throws are Fortitude and Will. For most one or the other is actually the classes strong save. Rogue get's none of these as a strong save, instead he get's reflex which really only helps with traps (that I hope he is capable of disarming...) and Wizards who cast fireball spells. That's a waste though since Improved Evasion just kinda ignores fireball to begin with.

As a combatant rogue is a rather weak class. This ability would also only really appeal to rogues that are actually charisma based. Can a rogue do it all at once? not really... Rogues already have slight Multiple Ability Dependency. Requiring Dex, Str, Con, Int. They need all of those in some way shape or form. typically one has to get dumped out... so you have dexterity based rogues and that's pretty much it. It's jsut an alternative function for rogue all in all.

Rogue a weak class? No. They can pull off their sneak attack -every- attack if they are smart. Rogues are not meant to be tanks, that has been the case since they were called "thieves" they are support classes. They are the tricks, the picks, the sneaks, the disarmers, the cheats. They are not tanks. Rogues, like fighters, have to multiclass. And basicing an entire argument off them falling to Phantasmal Killer is hardly a good point given they entirely ignore any spell with a reflex save. Let's not forget that only three levels in Rogue is pretty much sufficient to run down most trapped corridors and laugh at the entire collective trap collection. If you're worried about your saves vs. spells put some points into spellcraft (I AM! I'm even paying the cross class for it too. It's worth every point). Some of the most powerful characters on the server are rogues or splash rogues. Who? Amaril, Cervantes, Jinx (If buffed), SHINZO! Woo, for Shinzo!

All Rogues need to be devastating is someone else attacking the same target or improved knockdown. They don't need more abilities. If anyone does? It's Fighters.

Edit: Crippling Strike. Nuff said.

Rogues are definately tanks, with the uncapped dex bonus to ac and parry, and the int for expertise feats. There's nothing to stop someone from just changing their target to the rogue and nullifying any sneak attack dps he's going to get, so you may aswell be tanky when they focus you. Rogues get tumble, two weapon defence, You even said that they get all this tanking stuf earlier as one of the reasons they were supposedly "OP". Contradictin yourself bro
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:09:14 PM by Ipes »

Amon-Si

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Re: Feint
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 10:14:14 PM »
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How much con does your sorcerer have? O.o ...I don't suppose your sorceress is an elf either? Rogues are probably the most vulnerable to magic. even if they do hit you with sneak attack. My wizard was almost assassinated one day. I got hit by a dual weild sneak attack from a player either a level over or equal to my level. did a good bit of damage, didn't kill me. If it was just him I would have ended him right there and then, but it wasn't so I fled. While running away I left behind Evards Black Tentacles. Rogues have crap saves there fore paralyzed and took multiple damage. the chase scene ended with me getting Barley Injured from sneak attack, going down to injured when shot 2-3 times with a crossbow. That rogue on the other hand almost died as I was fleeing. I wasn't talking about a straight fight either...  Rogues need the shadows but once they pull their sneak attack. That's it. you are aware that they are there and then they gotta bolt. Running around corners trying to spam stealth doesn't work, if you have HiPS that is good but you need to apply for a prestige class in order to get HiPS. Straight up vanilla rogues kinda herped. It sounds as if your sorceress simply doesn't have enough constitution. At least from my understanding because not even a level 20 sneak attack is enough to eliminate all of, you know... not even just my wizard. Some of my level 2's can survive that!

To say there is no such thing as a weak nor strong class is, for lack of a better word "bull". There's always has been a meta, and powerful classes. Classes were even purposely made more powerful than others simply because it's the general universal lore of the world. The man who is magic is going to be stronger who isn't. That's just facts, it's just flat out numbers. You even said it yourself. Your sorceress can just debuff clerics, you can handle fighters just fine, it's over my head how you can't handle rogues. Especially if you can handle clerics, whoa re amazingly powerful on PoTM for a huge variety of reasons which I don't need to explain since i'm sure a good ton of the player base can explain "Melee Cleric".


My sorceress has 68 hp at level 17 ;D because she's an RP build and not a battle mage. (She started off a waitress for goodness' sakes)
No offence to the player, but they didn't use their rogue correctly. Sure we can go by averages, if you like, let's try a properly prepared rogue sneak attack set, shall we? Also assuming only 10 str:
9d6 sneak, 1d6+2 Normal damage, 1d12 Varnish, all attacks in the first round are sneak attacks with a 40% crit chance. I'm not going to tell you how this is done, but I'm being conservative here, and yes, those sneak attacks are guarenteed on an unprepared target (Who else would you fight?)
So that's 9d6+1d6+1d12+2 times five with two crits, bringing us to the lovely potential of 13-84 damage per hit, let's average that to about 40, just to be kind. It's still 200 for one round.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:25:22 PM by Amon-Si »

Ipes

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Re: Feint
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2013, 10:39:16 PM »

 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:43:25 PM by Ipes »

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Re: Feint
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2013, 11:14:58 PM »
I see a lot of room for abuse with this. Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful? The new parry system already favors them vastly over everyone else. Rogues get their sneak attack often enough as is and I think everyone is neglecting to mention that we have a similar ability to this already 'Taunt'.

Taunt is similar but not quite the same either. A taunt is when you anger someone to be reckless... and they lose some AC. It's more of the fighters variant of this.

"Do rogues really need something -else- to make them -more- powerful?"

There was just a thread about a guy who manages +41 listen with no ranks but with all items. Rogues in general are actually a very weak class, their only worth something to be scared of when they actually manage to get the jump on a squishy character, and even then. it's not too hard to actually survive a sneak attack. Rogues in general tend to be a rather weak class. While they may get a lot of damage on sneak attacks, once you do that one attack... that's pretty much it. Rogues are really only equipped with that and a high amount of skills. Think of them as the "Batman" class. Lots of gadgets and mundane utility, however unlike Gotham's caped crusader they hold various weaknesses including a lower AB progression, d6 hit die, access to only certain arms and armor without blowing off a feat on them, and of course VERY weak saving throws. Rogue saving throws are so weak, they actually die to phantasmal killer. Typically in PNP and in Neverwinter it's kind of considered "embarrassing" to die to phantasmal killer. This is because you have two chances to save versus death, the two save throws are Fortitude and Will. For most one or the other is actually the classes strong save. Rogue get's none of these as a strong save, instead he get's reflex which really only helps with traps (that I hope he is capable of disarming...) and Wizards who cast fireball spells. That's a waste though since Improved Evasion just kinda ignores fireball to begin with.

As a combatant rogue is a rather weak class. This ability would also only really appeal to rogues that are actually charisma based. Can a rogue do it all at once? not really... Rogues already have slight Multiple Ability Dependency. Requiring Dex, Str, Con, Int. They need all of those in some way shape or form. typically one has to get dumped out... so you have dexterity based rogues and that's pretty much it. It's jsut an alternative function for rogue all in all.

Rogue a weak class? No. They can pull off their sneak attack -every- attack if they are smart. Rogues are not meant to be tanks, that has been the case since they were called "thieves" they are support classes. They are the tricks, the picks, the sneaks, the disarmers, the cheats. They are not tanks. Rogues, like fighters, have to multiclass. And basicing an entire argument off them falling to Phantasmal Killer is hardly a good point given they entirely ignore any spell with a reflex save. Let's not forget that only three levels in Rogue is pretty much sufficient to run down most trapped corridors and laugh at the entire collective trap collection. If you're worried about your saves vs. spells put some points into spellcraft (I AM! I'm even paying the cross class for it too. It's worth every point). Some of the most powerful characters on the server are rogues or splash rogues. Who? Amaril, Cervantes, Jinx (If buffed), SHINZO! Woo, for Shinzo!

All Rogues need to be devastating is someone else attacking the same target or improved knockdown. They don't need more abilities. If anyone does? It's Fighters.

Edit: Crippling Strike. Nuff said.

Rogues are definately tanks, with the uncapped dex bonus to ac and parry, and the int for expertise feats. There's nothing to stop someone from just changing their target to the rogue and nullifying any sneak attack dps he's going to get, so you may aswell be tanky when they focus you. Rogues get tumble, two weapon defence, You even said that they get all this tanking stuf earlier as one of the reasons they were supposedly "OP". Contradictin yourself bro

There is a difference between tanking and alt-tanking. An Alt-Tank (Jinx) CAN tank, but not as good as a real tank who has the HP to back it (Senies).
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Zhernebog

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Re: Feint
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2013, 02:52:55 AM »
There is a difference between tanking and alt-tanking. An Alt-Tank (Jinx) CAN tank, but not as good as a real tank who has the HP to back it (Senies).
First off this is called off-tank. It's because it's on the off chance the tank needs help, you need to step up.
Second rogues are ridiculously powerful on this server. They can easily exist on another plane of existence if they just put points into hide/move silent around people who didn't put enough points into spot/listen(Aka:Warriors), without rping. On this plane they can level for free by following people around without rping once, easily steal items off people(Again, with no downside or rp) and basically might as well not exist outside of having benefits.
With the amount of ways rogues can gain access to sneak attacks, and rehiding, giving them more advantage would be laughably irresponsible.

Rogues make craptastic tanks against equivalent level targets. They make holes in people and exist in alternate dimensions.
A high ac isn't reliable if any enemy has access to magic missile or an extended critical range.