Author Topic: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes  (Read 8336 times)

Elfric

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2013, 08:35:45 PM »
Shouldn't we just make divine casters actual lose powers when their faith fails? <_< It would put a nail in the coffin of selfish "Good" clerics and paladins.

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Silverfox

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2013, 08:46:51 PM »
I'm not advocating apps lol.

I'd do away with them for the PRCs if it were up to me, so let's not all get the wrong idea from my previous post.
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Angry Nerd

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2013, 09:12:22 PM »
The problem, and difference between an NWN PW and a PnP campaign (discussing clerics and paladins being watched closely) is that in a PnP game, the DM observes everything. In a PW with a playerbase this size, that's just not possible for a DM to monitor them at all times and lay the smack down on a cleric who doesn't pray at the appropriate time for their chosen god, or a Paladin to adhere to the very letter of their tenets. I think it would be better if the playerbase policed themselves in this case, and leave the already overworked DMs and Devs alone. How? Well, that's open to debate.

dutchy

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2013, 09:19:12 PM »
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

do you know every god in the dnd worlds?  i dont   and i doubt the dm's do to, its a nice idea but not dooable  there so many difrant gods so many difrant aproaches its *head explodes*

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2013, 09:55:06 PM »
 I read page 1, 2, parts of 3 and a bit of 4. As many have said this topic is nothing new but I'm in a mood (I don't post a ton) so I'll keep it short and sweet  :)

 I have three PC's I play, a pure fighter, a pure rogue and a pure spell caster and I love them all for their diverse ability to "roleplay" that class. Okay, slight dig aside I don't think anybody has touched on the effect our crafting system has on classes? (correct me if I'm wrong). My fighter, as much as he would love to have a long standing cleric at his side does quite well spending his gold on potions which emulate (not replicate) a cleric.

let's be honest, if there is one thing on this server that could easily be considered "strange for Ravenloft standards" it would be the ability to generate gold and it's not uncommon to see players strolling through the dead of night with thousands on board.... wait... how does one carry 50,000 gold anyway wouldn't that be physically impossible...

Hrm, just gave me an idea next time I'm client side.  :twisted:

Bottom line is, we spend too much time on dissecting rules, nerfs, and "that other class" and not enough time on what drives this server! A few mentioned it, folks if you play a cleric/paladin tust saying.

There was a time we would do a stop/search and questionnaire on gods and alignment for those with divine powers. Perhaps a few spot checks are in order.

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2013, 09:56:05 PM »
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

do you know every god in the dnd worlds?  i dont   and i doubt the dm's do to, its a nice idea but not dooable  there so many difrant gods so many difrant aproaches its *head explodes*

Take that list and knock it down to only LG deities. Then look at the fact that everyone pretty much uses the same ones? Morninglord, Ezra, Tyr, Torm, Heironius (rarely) and Sune, it isn't hard. Plus, we have the internet...we can learn whatever we need whenever we need it. Read one article and you are good to go.
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Elfric

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2013, 09:57:36 PM »
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

do you know every god in the dnd worlds?  i dont   and i doubt the dm's do to, its a nice idea but not dooable  there so many difrant gods so many difrant aproaches its *head explodes*

Take that list and knock it down to only LG deities. Then look at the fact that everyone pretty much uses the same ones? Morninglord, Ezra, Tyr, Torm, Heironius (rarely) and Sune, it isn't hard. Plus, we have the internet...we can learn whatever we need whenever we need it. Read one article and you are good to go.
Yeah but how many actually follow the doctrines/domains/rites required to keep and show the faith?

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herkles

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2013, 10:04:06 PM »
@What does the scanner see: first Ezra is LN not LG. Second and the big thing is that in Ravenloft, Gods are distant if not there at all. They don't interfer in the Mists, and as such clerics have to suffer from crisises of faith and so on. It is on the individual not the gods. also the Dark Powers can intervene, there after all is a darklord who thinks she is still a paladin  :twisted:

Elfric

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2013, 10:07:47 PM »
@What does the scanner see: first Ezra is LN not LG. Second and the big thing is that in Ravenloft, Gods are distant if not there at all. They don't interfer in the Mists, and as such clerics have to suffer from crisises of faith and so on. It is on the individual not the gods. also the Dark Powers can intervene, there after all is a darklord who thinks she is still a paladin  :twisted:

The god doesn't matter, just the faith of the person. If they believe they've fallen, then they have. Which giving majority of the teachings and requirement, happens often. Unless you're that crazy lady.

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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2013, 10:21:59 PM »
There are a lot of things wrong with that post to include:

- Paladins are not an especially direct reflection of their patron deities dogma, not nearly as much so as a cleric would be
- They follow the one step rule (with few exceptions Sune being one of them) so many of their patrons are not even LG since NG and LN deities suffice, including some you listed as the "common" ones and some other "common" ones like Helm. The paladin is dogmatically LG though, but there are quite a decent sized variance on what will constitute their "lawful" axis from one paladin background to the next. You won't see cookie cutter paladin roleplay, even among two of the same faith. Even if that was not true every player should reserve some space for their own nuances that make the character their own.
- Not everyone enjoys dungeons and dragons for the immense in-character lore, so researching into a fantasy faith might be something done on minimal so as to feel confident to play a cleric of X. Maybe on the internet as you say.  I promise you that will be a character worthy of a nitpick to one intimately familiar with the faith they are portraying though. Which goes back to policing subjective things. Leeway into the realm of ignorant mistakes can go a long way, and help everyone keep a good spirit of storytelling without having to stop and rules lawyer things which is the role of DMs, even if you personally don't feel they do enough of it.

In any case,  my opinion on the way this thread is headed is like many other attempts to police subjectivity: its not a good idea. I consider myself a good roleplayer and I happen to be a somewhat learned player on the fantasy religions of the dnd game and I see things all the time that irk me because I probably have read more about the faith being represented so the deviations stand out clearly to me that are probably overlooked by others. And sure I realize there are sometimes cases where a character will deviate from their alignment or even their dogmatic belief system and you may witness a moment that is an outlier in the grande scheme of the character. Ultimately though I think its always better to trust the player's control of their character and trust that their behavior on the whole is a good reflection of their character and the fantasy literature that spawned their beliefs than to police things with a policy. And I feel we all have more interesting and entertaining ways to spend our PotM time than to worry overly much about the portrayals of other people's player characters.             
 And if you ever witness something COMPLETELY and TOTALLY off about religious roleplay, then ask the player about it. They may just have a fall storyline in mind and you could just not realize.  Or they could be masquerading as a member of another church but really be in-character by doing so. Or, maybe you can share them a link in a pm that covers their dogma in a friendly and helpful gesture in good faith. The one thing I would share is that while I have seen a few bad examples of clerics on potm over the years I have seen a great deal more that were inspiring good fun to watch. People recall the bads too often.


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Troukk

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2013, 10:33:06 PM »
You gotta be careful when you're trying to use Forgotten Realms standards in Ravenloft. The Mists -are not- Faerun. Clerics don't speak to their gods here. Divine power here is confusing and so are religions. In fact, the way I see it, if your cleric is too damn faithful and makes no mistakes canonwise, then you're probably playing him wrong here in Ravenloft. Your cleric should have crisis of faith, he should confuse his god with other gods, he should inadvertedly or purposefully make changes to the rituals regarding his religion. At least that's how I play my main, who happens to be a pure cleric. It's also a lot more fun because it lets you be creative.
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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2013, 10:56:58 PM »
Eh, crisis in faith is a term bandied about a bit. I tend to think its off-base though, the existence or not of their gods is not a question at all and to waiver in their belief system much is far fetched story wise, since a few years of doubt don't trump a lifetime's upbringing in the cloth or in the particular case of FR, a life time of the most religious setting imaginable where prayers are uttered by anyone and everyone favors one or more gods from every walk of life. They might wonder whether or not they are making the right choices sure, but its not like the other settings have personal divine counsel either during prayer so such things are only mitigated by having access to elders of their faiths and the support systems of their churches. Clerics in other settings have crisis of faith all the time, its not a function of Ravenloft that it may happen. There are examples in other settings of crisis of faith, such as Halisstra Melarn has multiple periods of crisis in whatever goddess she served and she is a cleric.  Its the island of one mentality that is the most influential modification of outlander cleric roleplay to me because the organization of the church is a self serving ecosystem that keeps dogma at the fore but its overblown that clerics should lose their way because they don't have direct counsel with avatars as its an extremely rare occurrence even in their home-planes unless you are an extreme high position in clerical hierarchy that any nubile pubescent acolyte level 2 arriving here as we have would never had experienced much of.


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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2013, 12:56:20 AM »
The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

do you know every god in the dnd worlds?  i dont   and i doubt the dm's do to, its a nice idea but not dooable  there so many difrant gods so many difrant aproaches its *head explodes*

Take that list and knock it down to only LG deities. Then look at the fact that everyone pretty much uses the same ones? Morninglord, Ezra, Tyr, Torm, Heironius (rarely) and Sune, it isn't hard. Plus, we have the internet...we can learn whatever we need whenever we need it. Read one article and you are good to go.
Yeah but how many actually follow the doctrines/domains/rites required to keep and show the faith?

Exactly my point.
What does the scanner see? Into the head? Down into the heart? Does it see into me, into us? Clearly or darkly? I hope it sees clearly, because I can't any longer see into myself. I see only murk. I hope for everyone's sake the scanners do better.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2013, 01:15:20 AM »
If I were a DM, I bet I could entertain myself for a lifetime by tormenting Clerics and Paladins who don't live up to their faiths... hmm.
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Elfric

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2013, 01:20:48 AM »
If I were a DM, I bet I could entertain myself for a lifetime by tormenting Clerics and Paladins who don't live up to their faiths... hmm.

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2013, 10:19:09 AM »
I'm curious how you would be able to do so, what can be done about it exactly?

Ercvadasz

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2013, 12:13:24 PM »
Doctrines, dogmas and the like:
Wonder how many folks play a paladin, when they are actually knights of some evil God or Goddess.
Simply because Blackguard is a prc, and it needs application.
Also what is your stance on the matter, how do you see it? Is it perfectly okay, or should day start as rangers or fighters or maybe barbarians?
(Ranger or fighter does not have allignement restriction, whereas paladin does.)
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2013, 12:22:03 PM »
Doctrines, dogmas and the like:
Wonder how many folks play a paladin, when they are actually knights of some evil God or Goddess.
Simply because Blackguard is a prc, and it needs application.
Also what is your stance on the matter, how do you see it? Is it perfectly okay, or should day start as rangers or fighters or maybe barbarians?
(Ranger or fighter does not have allignement restriction, whereas paladin does.)


Paladins are paladins, period. There should be no wiggle room there.
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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2013, 12:24:37 PM »
I've never seen anyone play the paladin of an evil God.
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Silverfox

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2013, 12:46:27 PM »
Played a Paladin of Tyranny in another gameworld. But that had haks etc to support it. Here, I haven't seen anything like it. Pity really lol. That said, when Good is played properly, Evil gets powerful simply out of the virtue it doesn't have the same moral limitations. (i.e. a lack of obligation to mercy)
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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2013, 01:25:28 PM »
It's more feasible to get +5 varnishes and slap one on your armor for a fight than acquire 20 levels in cleric just for the vestment; I am unsure if that works for a shield, though.

When it comes to policing clerics on their domains, dogma and vows, who has time to do Cleric Audit 2013?  To ask whether the cleric has obtained a single convert for their faith.  I think no matter your alignment spreading the faith is something that clerics should be concerned with.  Everyone else may not agree though.

I personally believe the best improvement will come from an effort into revising the standard NWN clerical domains, and move to something that is roleplay centered and more balanced. Divine Power, Vestment are not broken, domains are.  Those setting specific clerical domains (Mist, Law, etc)  make available creative incentives to roll up Core natives with access to them - just as much as Drow could get the Cavern domain.

aprogressivist

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2013, 01:29:10 PM »
It's more feasible to get +5 varnishes and slap one on your armor for a fight than acquire 20 levels in cleric just for the vestment; I am unsure if that works for a shield, though.

Fairly sure it does. I regularly use +3 varnishes on my shields.






As for the cleric stuff -- remember that DMs can give DPs for breaking tenets of one's religion.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2013, 06:27:10 PM »
Capping Magic Vestment at +3
A solo cleric would in response require more self-buffing to maintain their power, making it even less likely for buffs to find their way to allies.  My support cleric would be less helpful and desirable to party with.

Divine Power and Bull's Strength
The concept is one must have a strength value below 18 (I would think most solo clerics already have 18 strength) and cast divine power first, bull's strength second.  Without haste, try casting divine power, prayer, divine favor, then bull's strength.  If you're willing to waste four rounds like this casting spells in the middle of an important fight, I think you're in trouble.  Gaining maybe one strength ability modifier for all that hassle, and only being able to do so once every 30 minutes makes it hardly worth thinking about.  On the PvP side, if a cleric started chain casting these temporary buffs in an attempt to fight one of my characters, I would probably laugh and run in circles for two minutes.  Then kill them.


LackofCertainty

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2013, 07:42:47 PM »
I would love it if the new player area got a big sign for clerics and paladins that says, "When you arrive in Barovia, you feel distant from your god.  You still receive spells and powers from them, but you are no longer able to directly commune with them.  For many clerics and paladins, this leads to depression, though how you choose to roleplay this effect on your character is up to you."

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2013, 07:48:58 PM »
I agree with that.