Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes

[aprogressivist]

As the player of a caster, I'd rather have a level 20 Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian to tank in Perfidus than a level 20 Cleric. With the Cleric, you can win one or two encounters for sure but then you're waiting 30 minutes for him to rest and recuperate his spells.

[Crimson Shuriken]

Clerics...   they don't need further reduction in effectiveness. Once upon a time a Divine Power nerf might have been worth considering but with vestment and divine favor getting their effectiveness reduced they are well in line with everyone else and don't really require any further tweaking.

Also what he said,  clerics are not a replacement for a true melee class and they never really have been but its especially true now.
How many of you are even of a pure cleric level to know just how effective or not they are any way? If you are taking a snapshot of ~level 8 your impression of clerics will be skewed but the other classes quickly catch up and then surpass them in power.

[Green Monster]

If you're power buffing yourself as a cleric when you have a true warrior class nearby, you are not very good at the mechanical aspect of the game.
Clerics are only an off-tank at best, and unfortunately I've noticed far too commonly a bunch of people only willing to buff themselves when they have a full BAB standing around. When you buff yourself as a cleric you become just as good as a fighter, maybe even a little bit better. When you buff a warrior class, they turn into a frothing, unstoppable juggernaut berserker.

100% True. But I can't think of any mechanical way to alter people's behaviour. Still, on a server where the highest possible enchanted armour or shield you can get is +3, then that should also be the max for magic vestment. And if the "good" players aren't stacking bull's strength on top of divine power, it won't hurt them to make those spells not stack.

[Ercvadasz]

Well after once seeing a cleric get 55+ AB just with self buffs i had no questions:)
(also his str was over 32)

[Zarathustra217]

I should make a sticky somewhere stating once and for all that it's my firm belief that the HotU expansion is the root of the imbalances between classes and the reason why casters started to turn toward (mainly) self buffing rather than party buffing. It was very obvious back when the expansion was just released and you started seeing these lone wolf powerhouses all over.

Point is, personally I agree with the OP. But it's also true that the most important aspect is the mindset of the player, and it's much less easy to change that. So I wonder if it's worth the trouble?

[Amon-Si]

I should make a sticky somewhere stating once and for all that it's my firm belief that the HotU expansion is the root of the imbalances between classes and the reason why casters started to turn toward (mainly) self buffing rather than party buffing. It was very obvious back when the expansion was just released and you started seeing these lone wolf powerhouses all over.

Point is, personally I agree with the OP. But it's also true that the most important aspect is the mindset of the player, and it's much less easy to change that. So I wonder if it's worth the trouble?

As I travel the world I will be tracking down POTMers and installing the appropriate fair play mind control chip. It's the only way.

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

the cleric's buffs, and being able to do so in armor, pretty much render the true warrior classes obsolete and is why we have so many clerics who don't seem to know any of their God's dogma. Time for the nerf-bat.

...Dark Powers to start and Huecuvas to finish, Clerics should know their stuff!  Applications to play the cleric class!

[Silverfox]

The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

Better thing to do imo if you're going to suggest things like that, in jest or otherwise, would be consequences for not "doing it right" lol.

[Honoun]

Having a pure cleric I can attest that its not all uber greatness most of you seem to think it is. I don't know how many times I've had her dungeoning and some critter casts dispell on her or some other debuffing skill and ... oh crud, look at my health go down like there is no tomorrow time to run and run fast! And she does buff others if they ask her but she's not going to if your char says nothing. So if you want her to buff you then say it! She is not a mind reader! She is actually at the point where she can buff herself and one other fully now so look her up if you're a fighter. She'll make you so uber the victory we will have in glorious battle is going to please her and her god, so go on and ask her.

Do I solo with her? Sure sometimes but thats only because there is nobody else around to RP with at the time cause frankly I would rather be RP with someone than hacking up Thugs all by my lonesome self in Dement to get diamonds, (which she has quite a lot now by the way), all the time cause I'm feaking bored.

Bottom line is I prefer grouping but these days nobody seems to want to group with her. Go figure.

Of course I'm always asked to log her in when I'm engaged with RP on another char that I can't just suddenly leave, why always me... WHY? 

Here's a thought if you want her in your party let me know way ahead of time, you know so I can finish up any current activity I may currently be in

[aprogressivist]

Poor Asta la Vista. No-one wants to play with her

[Honoun]

Personly I think its cause of the language barrier, but thats a whole other topic

[BahamutZ3RO]

I love the gibberish.

[Lucadia]

this sounds like another "they are not buffing me,plz do something" after reading this
p.s. 24 str with divine power is not impressive

[BalorVale]

this sounds like another "they are not buffing me,plz do something" after reading this
p.s. 24 str with divine power is not impressive

Don't belittle the thread, even Zarathustra believes his words to have merit. Be excellent to each other If you have nothing constructive to say don't say it.

I think clerics have the ability to be very overpowered in certain situations, just as most classes do;

Rogues/Rangers Shine on getting the jump on someone

Fighters/Barbarians/Monks Shine at pure killing power without the need of relying on buffs

Sorcerers/Wizard Can be very versatile depending on the spell selection, if the enemy is not prepared to fight magic, they can be deadly very quickly, but low HP ensures death if they stay in combat too long (Glass Cannons)

Clerics/Paladins Can be ruthless when fought while they are buffed, catch them unawares or dispelling those precious wards makes them down to a low quality fighter.

Druids/Bards are jacks of all trades able to fill almost any role, whether it be healer, tank or flanker, they are silver of all, gold of none with interesting assets to bring to the table, they can be countered by thier more robust counterparts, but under their tactics and play-style they can prevail as any other class does.

To say one class is stronger, yes. Yes they are, but only because you have them in the situation that is their advantage. Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance.

[Honoun]

Well said Balor, if only more would realise this the server would be a happier place... Oh wait ... 

[Lucadia]

i didt belitlle it at all, i sumed up the main point, no amount of spell nerfs is going to get
your cleric to be a team player. ether they was before hand or not.

every time some body dont get what they believe is due to them they want see anotner
class take a nerf.

now do i think clerics are over the top here   yes

but asking for a class to be balanced based on players not buffing xyz class is not way to
go about it.

[Honoun]

The thing is as I can attest to, once a successfully dispel is cast on cleric they are weak, with out their buffs a cleric is so freaking vulnerable that they are easily defeated. All it takes is bit of planning and if played right a cleric can be beaten with ease. Honestly this is no more than a PvP concern, cause if you were playing this game as it was intended then you'd be wanting that buffed up cleric with you no questions asked. To say that its other wise is to be lying or you have no idea how it all works.

D&D was a team effort after all, the group against the world.

Am I upset? A little, certainly I'm tired of these threads that ask for nerfing cleric spells cause PvP players can't seem to get it through their thick skulls that they are just not timing their attacks well enough or are not being that smart with a dispel when they can be. Only to leave us mediocre players to suffer due to these nerfs that leaves us less effective in a team set up. Having trouble? Then play smarter.

I know I'm going to regret posting this but I feel it needs to be said.

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

I can hold my breath for about as long as Divine Power lasts.

Also, Ravenloft has implemented those setting specific nerfs, which I highly support and I'm quite proud of.  We also fixed those pesky stacking damage shields, fixed other things to fit 3.5, but I'll tell you something:

If this is about not being able to triumph over a cleric?  I dare you to find a way to defeat your enemy without use of PvP at all.

Spoiler: show

I once sent a letter that caused the end of the world for my foe. 

[Honoun]

Yes the duration time of Divine Power is very short which is why my cleric never bothers with it for the most part, she saves it for those situations where she may find herself in when she might need that little extra boost for a short while. Other than that, she never uses it.

End result being she never ever uses it cause I'm a mediocre player and so forget to cast the darn thing when it actually matters 

[TheJustLawOfShamash]

Minor nitpick.  Many, many people in this thread have repeatedly stated that you have to be a level 20 cleric to get a +5 from Magic Vestment.  This is not true.  The bonus from Magic Vestment and GMW goes to +5 at level 15.

From a personal standpoint, the cleric spells that truly bother me the most are Divine Power, Holy Word, and Implosion.  Divine Power, because it is, by it's nature, a spell that can only be used in a selfish manner, thus encouraging clerics to buff themselves rather than the party to get the most out of this very tasty spell.   Holy Word, simply because it's very overpowered in PvP, what with it allowing no save.  Implosion, because the only way to defend against it is to make a successful save, meaning that even a level 20 Dwarven Defender has a 1 in 20 shot of getting insta-pwned by this spell.  Though my real problem with implosion is that it just doesn't feel like a cleric spell, thematically. Maybe if it was a beam of holy smiting light rather than a whirling vortex of super-pressurized atmosphere.

Just my two cents.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Minor nitpick.  Many, many people in this thread have repeatedly stated that you have to be a level 20 cleric to get a +5 from Magic Vestment.  This is not true.  The bonus from Magic Vestment and GMW goes to +5 at level 15.

From a personal standpoint, the cleric spells that truly bother me the most are Divine Power, Holy Word, and Implosion.  Divine Power, because it is, by it's nature, a spell that can only be used in a selfish manner, thus encouraging clerics to buff themselves rather than the party to get the most out of this very tasty spell.   Holy Word, simply because it's very overpowered in PvP, what with it allowing no save.  Implosion, because the only way to defend against it is to make a successful save, meaning that even a level 20 Dwarven Defender has a 1 in 20 shot of getting insta-pwned by this spell.  Though my real problem with implosion is that it just doesn't feel like a cleric spell, thematically. Maybe if it was a beam of holy smiting light rather than a whirling vortex of super-pressurized atmosphere.

Just my two cents.

Spells have been modified for balance's sake on PotM. There is an incomplete list of the changes here on the forums.

Greater Magic Weapon
Caster Level: Bard 3, Cleric 4, Paladin 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 3  (Gained at level - 8/Bard, 7/Cleric, 12/Paladin, 5/Wizard, 6/Sorcerer)
Innate Level: 3 School: Transmutation
Component(s): V, S Range: Touch
Save: None - Spell Resistance: No
Area of Effect/Target: Creature or Melee Weapon
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Turn / Level
Description: You empower the touched weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus per 4 caster levels (maximum of +4). You can either directly target the weapon you want to cast this spell on, or you can target a creature, affecting the creature's main hand weapon.

• Level 4 +1 enhancement
• Level 8 +2 enhancement
• Level 12 +3 enhancement
• Level 16 +4 enhancement
• Level 20 +5 enhancement

Magic Vestment
Caster Level: Cleric 3 (Gained at level 5/Cleric)
Innate Level: 3 School: Transmutation
Component(s): V, S Range: Touch
Save: None - Spell Resistance: No
Area of Effect/Target: Creature, Armor or Shield
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Turn / Level
Description: You empower the touched armor or shield with a +1 AC bonus per 4 caster levels (minimum of +1).

• Level 1 +1AC
• Level 8 +2AC
• Level 12 +3AC
• Level 16 +4AC
• Level 20 +5AC

If I have any beef about Clerics, it's that Darkfire is somehow more awesome than Flame Weapon. COME ON, GIVE MAGES SOMETHING.

[What does the scanner see]

The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

I can get behind this. There are so few WELL played Paladins. As my old 2.0 DM told me one "If a paladin lives past level 5, they either aren't doing their job right or the gods have a serious plan for them". And related to this, why not make clerics a little more monitored? I know in PnP it's DEVASTATING to a character if they fall from their god, that needs to be the case here.

[Phantasia]

Applications for casters and Paladins would be an interesting thing to see. I am most likely going to receive a lot of flack if I start advocating it. Something to be left in the air, but certainly not brushed aside.

My two cents.

The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

All of the base classes are open for anyone to use, and I think applications for PrCs is a given if the server is allowing that much freedom already. Sure, some multiclassing rules apply with the base, but that's to prevent silly powerbuilds that I know a lot of people would hate. I'd have to say Paladin, Cleric, and Druid would be my choices.

[Bodhidharma]

My character has access to the 7th circle of cleric spells and he doesn't even use Divine Power but despite that I do not agree to the nerf simply because Divine Power is supposed to function slightly different which means it could potentially become stronger than it actually is in NWN.

As for the bulls strength + divine power combination, if memory serves me right it has to be cast in that specific order and once divine power fades out you cannot do this again.

Magic vestment: I think this has been clarified by everyone else.

[EberronBruce]

The server is restrictive enough as it is on classes. And if we were going to introduce class apps, Paladin & Monk would be my shouters.

Problem with any application process is someone has to look over it. That takes time out of others and can have a stockpile of applications to go through. Just imagine all the PRC apps and AMPC/MPC apps as well. Throw in some base classes and now that is just more to the pile.  However, I do think serious consideration behind paladin, clerics, and even monks should be thought of. Like who they are, their background, their RP perspectives, how did they get into that position, and what do their religion or god expect from them. These are just some ideas. If application is feasibly possible then it may help, but we got to remember someone has to look over them and approve.