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Author Topic: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes  (Read 8135 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2013, 08:00:48 PM »
I would love it if the new player area got a big sign for clerics and paladins that says, "When you arrive in Barovia, you feel distant from your god.  You still receive spells and powers from them, but you are no longer able to directly commune with them.  For many clerics and paladins, this leads to depression, though how you choose to roleplay this effect on your character is up to you."

Also, "Detect Evil does not work how you think it works. Stop spamming it."
: )


TheJustLawOfShamash

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2013, 10:41:22 PM »
Also, "Detect Evil does not work how you think it works. Stop spamming it."



It works like this, of course.
" then Anu and Bel called by name , I , Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak." - Hammurabi's Code Of Laws

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2013, 10:44:56 PM »
Actually, I like detect evil. It's awesome and is awesome element on how it works and I hardly ever see people use it.

It's very funny especially when you are a Paladin and you use it in the ML temple to find out every single NPC is evil according to the power. You get detailed information on the aura even from specific names if you are close enough to them.

I have in the past left parties and created antagonism over impiety and vileness where it really isn't warranted simply by that misdirection. Hahahah. It's great.

..and while funny, your picture really does demonstrate how it works. Paladins can do that and on here they are unaware of the fact it is with chaotic alignments, not evil ones.

MORAL DILEMMA, GOTHIC HORRO! Weeeeeeeeeee! Are they evil? Truly? Are you sure? Are you.. confused at their aid of the suffering people, when your so-called divine clarity tells you otherwise? NOOOOO~
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 10:46:51 PM by Geiger »

dutchy

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2013, 10:54:48 PM »
I would love it if the new player area got a big sign for clerics and paladins that says, "When you arrive in Barovia, you feel distant from your god.  You still receive spells and powers from them, but you are no longer able to directly commune with them.  For many clerics and paladins, this leads to depression, though how you choose to roleplay this effect on your character is up to you."

also they get a free knife and instructions on how to properly slit ones wrist?   depending on race ofcourse.

sorry sorry i know i couldnt help myself i just saw the sign and the poster next to it with all the races saying how and where to cut.


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Zhernebog

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2013, 03:23:06 AM »
Capping Magic Vestment at +3
A solo cleric would in response require more self-buffing to maintain their power, making it even less likely for buffs to find their way to allies.  My support cleric would be less helpful and desirable to party with.
Why would they require any other buffs besides invis? Stay in the back and watch me dance, magick man.

Divine Power and Bull's Strength
The concept is one must have a strength value below 18 (I would think most solo clerics already have 18 strength) and cast divine power first, bull's strength second.  Without haste, try casting divine power, prayer, divine favor, then bull's strength.  If you're willing to waste four rounds like this casting spells in the middle of an important fight, I think you're in trouble.  Gaining maybe one strength ability modifier for all that hassle, and only being able to do so once every 30 minutes makes it hardly worth thinking about.  On the PvP side, if a cleric started chain casting these temporary buffs in an attempt to fight one of my characters, I would probably laugh and run in circles for two minutes.  Then kill them.
(Tone of this was kinda sassy, edited)
The thread is seemingly about how cancerous self-buffers are to teamwork, and looking for solutions to solve that, I see no downside with implementing this debuffs, and insofar, the rallying cry against implementation is "OH LAWDY NO"
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 09:35:50 AM by Zhernebog »

Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2013, 04:50:39 AM »
Badbud made tons of sense. I am having difficulty understanding your counter point.


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Badelaire

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2013, 07:58:45 AM »
Just seems like another case of players not liking how a very small minority play a class and wanting to impose some means of mechanical wrist slap that affects everyone. This seems to be the mindset for literally everything (people ninja loot a certain place constantly? Loot drop gets nerfed and no one else has the ability to get items said ninja looters already acquired. Also see: Greater Sanctuary scrolls) rather than try and encourageteam work and unity. I could start a thread on how wizards need to be nerfed because of the sheer amount of Christ-like ones running around who do little but invis and snatch all the loot but I just choose to not party with them when it becomes apparent IC they're selfish and geedy.

dutchy

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2013, 08:49:44 AM »
Capping Magic Vestment at +3
A solo cleric would in response require more self-buffing to maintain their power, making it even less likely for buffs to find their way to allies.  My support cleric would be less helpful and desirable to party with.
Why would they require any other buffs besides invis? Stay in the back and watch me dance, magick man.

Divine Power and Bull's Strength
The concept is one must have a strength value below 18 (I would think most solo clerics already have 18 strength) and cast divine power first, bull's strength second.  Without haste, try casting divine power, prayer, divine favor, then bull's strength.  If you're willing to waste four rounds like this casting spells in the middle of an important fight, I think you're in trouble.  Gaining maybe one strength ability modifier for all that hassle, and only being able to do so once every 30 minutes makes it hardly worth thinking about.  On the PvP side, if a cleric started chain casting these temporary buffs in an attempt to fight one of my characters, I would probably laugh and run in circles for two minutes.  Then kill them.
On the pvp side I think it's pretty laughable to consider your character even involving himself. lvl20>lvl12 cleric
That being said, the thread is about how cancerous self-buffers are to teamwork and looking for solutions to solve that, I see no downside with implementing this debuffs, and insofar, the rallying cry against implementation is "OH LAWDY NO"

I hope the invisible thing was a joke cause if you think a cleric plays for you to pwn and just stand and watch then you have a bad view on  the fact everyone is here to have fun thing.

As for the pvp lvl 20 vs a 12?  Where do you get these numbers bad bud has more then 1 char   this seems personal for you.

Really people you wish to nerf a cleric, how would a cleric defend himself incase of a back spawn ?  His ac is his only life line until the front fighter(s) notice and help that can go wrong fast and everyone loses their free healing.   

If someone doesn't party buff but only self buffs don't part with him, that's how you change it if we do that long enough the self buffers will diminish into rare numbers

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Zhernebog

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2013, 09:42:35 AM »
Badbud made tons of sense. I am having difficulty understanding your counter point.
I am having difficulty seeing how this suggested change would be anything more than a positive change. From what I observed we usually have tons and tons of full bab classes around every level range and alignment, so finding someone to buff shouldn't be a huge issue.
Seeing how the server is meant for(or highly suggests) teamwork as opposed to soloing, adding a mechanical nudge in the right direction might add more weight to that. The downside of allowing these buffs to stack is two wasted spell slots on top of the others that are used to keep the cleric moving in the fray, and not his friends.
Having a character solo doesn't really help anyone on the server but yourself and seems to befit a server geared toward number crunching and grinding, not toward expanding a story and setting.

As for the tone of the previous post, I meant it more light heartedly than it came across, next time I'll take the effort to fully dictate precisely my counterpoint. But it seems as the thread has reached a wall of neutrality, wherein both sides are firmly rooted. I say give it a spin, see if it changes anything. Nobodies going to leave the server in a huffy puffy rage if they can't solo.

dutchy

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2013, 10:04:31 AM »
Cause I saw plenty of self buffers I made a cleric.   And he buffs others sits in the back and heals

Instead of wanting changes with nerves try to set an example instead.

You might think aaah personal gain. But Nope if nerfs got made they effect the ones I buff not me

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Zhernebog

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2013, 10:29:53 AM »
Cause I saw plenty of self buffers I made a cleric.   And he buffs others sits in the back and heals

Instead of wanting changes with nerves try to set an example instead.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2013, 10:52:24 AM »
Badbud made tons of sense. I am having difficulty understanding your counter point.
I am having difficulty seeing how this suggested change would be anything more than a positive change. From what I observed we usually have tons and tons of full bab classes around every level range and alignment, so finding someone to buff shouldn't be a huge issue.
Seeing how the server is meant for(or highly suggests) teamwork as opposed to soloing, adding a mechanical nudge in the right direction might add more weight to that. The downside of allowing these buffs to stack is two wasted spell slots on top of the others that are used to keep the cleric moving in the fray, and not his friends.
Having a character solo doesn't really help anyone on the server but yourself and seems to befit a server geared toward number crunching and grinding, not toward expanding a story and setting.

As for the tone of the previous post, I meant it more light heartedly than it came across, next time I'll take the effort to fully dictate precisely my counterpoint. But it seems as the thread has reached a wall of neutrality, wherein both sides are firmly rooted. I say give it a spin, see if it changes anything. Nobodies going to leave the server in a huffy puffy rage if they can't solo.

Nerfing a cleric's AC buff (that works on others) is more of a punishment to the others than to the cleric, and that's why it wouldn't be a positive change.


Zhernebog

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2013, 10:58:51 AM »
Nerfing a cleric's AC buff (that works on others) is more of a punishment to the others than to the cleric, and that's why it wouldn't be a positive change.
Derp, let me show my ignorance by not even noticing the ac bonus being apart of the above changes.

I'd like to rephrase that any of my posts should reflect the proposed change on divine power, I completely agree nerfing the shield is pretty dumb.

aprogressivist

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2013, 11:02:43 AM »
They've already nerfed Divine Power in line with 3.5 tho... don't think it needs more nerfing.
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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2013, 11:06:27 AM »
Nerfing a cleric's AC buff (that works on others) is more of a punishment to the others than to the cleric, and that's why it wouldn't be a positive change.
Derp, let me show my ignorance by not even noticing the ac bonus being apart of the above changes.

I'd like to rephrase that any of my posts should reflect the proposed change on divine power, I completely agree nerfing the shield is pretty dumb.

Self buff clerics can get over 50, close to 60 ab and ac..... Normally, you'll find self buff clerics over group buff clerics. It's a mentality to be godly.

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shadymerchant

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2013, 01:14:53 PM »
You can't force creativity in roleplaying. If someone has no interest in the dogmatic, religious zeal of a cleric/paly  mechanic changes will not bring an attitude change. It will annoy me though.

giuvic

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #91 on: February 09, 2013, 10:18:36 PM »
if you ever nerf clerics for their AC... please remember to do something about the ones that don't use heavy armor due to their personal dogmas.

I see clerics rather as a versatile option as the options of faiths were too big for the developers to give each faith a specific class structure.
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Silverfox

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #92 on: February 09, 2013, 10:19:45 PM »
Thread necromancy! Arise!
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EberronBruce

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #93 on: February 10, 2013, 01:31:43 AM »
I been here awhile just like many of you here is what I see.

I see a rehashing of the same dungeon over and over. Terg crypts being one of them. A cleric can easily solo that so can a paladin. There is no way in hell my fighter can and he is even higher level than the clerics/paladins that do. Why is that? Clerics and Paladins get spells that can boost themselves through the roof especially clerics. My fighter would go through tons of potions and still not have the same effect and it being extremely risky. Too risky for him. Must group up. A cleric can practically solo almost the entire server.

One issue to deal with this is to throw more curve balls at them where their spells wont help them. When I played the AMPC, I used a particular nasty long dungeon that a cleric would find it hard to solo because of its size and monsters base there. I forced those players to work in a team by doing that, which was good for them. That is one way to curve a cleric's godhood. Another is having them have a difficult time turning certain undead or affecting certain creatures with their spells because of them not being tied to their god, especially if it is an outlander god such as Selune or Kevelmor. It should help reflect their distance from their god.

Another is trying to rearrange dungeons or areas where a cleric would have a difficult time soloing but if they get at least one other it makes it doable or a hell of a lot easier.

I seen many paladins go up and just kill whatever even if the thing is running away for the xp. I seen so many clerics that just self buff and ignore the rest of the party not even sparing healing for them. There are lots and lots of players like this and I think a good chunk of these players don't read the forums. I even send them tells explaining the distance from the god bit and you get a response from some of them like STFU. Then again I met a lot of good roleplayers and good clerics that stay back, heal, spread their power to others, same goes for wizards, and paladins. Think with clerics or paladins, especially paladins, is to enforce dogma or code of ethics you need a DM to be on their back, but personally I rather have DMs help with glitches, run stories, and help with more unique aspects than policing clerics and paladin PCs.

Also I notice from stories or plots, that even if a DM runs it, players tend to ignore it as soon as the DM is not there or isn't being enforced by a DM. And when you tell them this is what is going on you are being told you are crazy or something like that.

The problem is mindset, and there is only so much you can do to enforce it mechanically.

giuvic

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #94 on: February 10, 2013, 10:11:30 AM »
Quote
One issue to deal with this is to throw more curve balls at them where their spells wont help them. When I played the AMPC, I used a particular nasty long dungeon that a cleric would find it hard to solo because of its size and monsters base there. I forced those players to work in a team by doing that, which was good for them. That is one way to curve a cleric's godhood.

lol TELL THE TRUTH! you managed a party kill, that's it...
you meanie ghoul only wanted an easy  dinner! :P
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