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Author Topic: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes  (Read 8539 times)

Green Monster

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Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« on: December 27, 2012, 02:47:09 AM »
In the OC, the power of the cleric is made less impressive by the presence of permanent magical items that give the same or better bonuses as the cleric's spells. Here, where such items don't exist, the cleric's buffs, and being able to do so in armor, pretty much render the true warrior classes obsolete and is why we have so many clerics who don't seem to know any of their God's dogma. Time for the nerf-bat. Here's my suggestions:


Magic Vestment:
In the OC, this spell is just something to use until you find your +5 armour and shield. On a low-magic server, it's way too powerful. It should max out here at +3, not +5


Divine Power:
This spell should not stack with Bull's Strength. With it, you're already getting strength from your God, don't be greedy! Right now, if you cast Divine Power first and then cast empowered Bull's Strength after, you can have 24 Strength. That's too much, especially for a self-only spell.
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Zhernebog

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2012, 06:38:54 AM »
If you're power buffing yourself as a cleric when you have a true warrior class nearby, you are not very good at the mechanical aspect of the game.
Clerics are only an off-tank at best, and unfortunately I've noticed far too commonly a bunch of people only willing to buff themselves when they have a full BAB standing around. When you buff yourself as a cleric you become just as good as a fighter, maybe even a little bit better. When you buff a warrior class, they turn into a frothing, unstoppable juggernaut berserker.

Fen'lo Taaran

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2012, 06:48:24 AM »
Also depends on how the fighter/cleric are built. Although he hit the nail on the head there. If the cleric is just self-buffing instead of sharing the love, they need their head checked.

tzaeru

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2012, 07:02:24 AM »
If you're power buffing yourself as a cleric when you have a true warrior class nearby, you are not very good at the mechanical aspect of the game.
Clerics are only an off-tank at best, and unfortunately I've noticed far too commonly a bunch of people only willing to buff themselves when they have a full BAB standing around. When you buff yourself as a cleric you become just as good as a fighter, maybe even a little bit better. When you buff a warrior class, they turn into a frothing, unstoppable juggernaut berserker.

Eh, this is only partially correct. Actually a solo-buffing cleric can be more powerful than a fighter buffed by that cleric.

Divine Power + Divine Favor + Bull's Strength is typically same or often more AB and damage than Fighter of same level. Clerics also have more spells per day than wizard and druids, allowing them to use round-based buffs all the way to next rest at mid to high levels. When you mix in certain domains (like War or Strength) and the possible Divine Shield and Divine Might, you can easily build a cleric that is stronger buffing himself than an averagely strong fighter in the party.

By now, I think the spell balance is almost fine (I've a few changes left that I'd like!) and I'd rather see buffs to the weak classes than nerfs to the powerful ones. Like change Fighter and Barbarian BAB progression to something like 1 + 1/8 per level, which means they'd have 2 AB more than now at level 16. (Why 1 + 1/8? Because then you can't multiclass if you want the full +2 bonus from what it is now. :P)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 07:04:28 AM by tzaeru »
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Fen'lo Taaran

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2012, 07:04:30 AM »
Fighter/WM/Rogue with buffs craps all over a cleric. There's also the thing of, instead of wasting those spell-slots on buffs, you can be keeping allies alive with healing spells, or even using spells that have no save (hello searing light spam).

tzaeru

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2012, 07:10:33 AM »
Fighter/WM/Rogue, though, wouldn't do all so well vs. critical/sneak immune monsters. Would still get some benefit out of the NWN's lovable skill-dumping, though.

It's a bit sad that the only sensible meleer builds involve cross-classing to rogue and skill-dumping, unless you can count on having a smart buffer around most of the time - which many, I for one, can't.
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Nemien Callishan

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2012, 07:11:48 AM »
Divine Power + Divine Favor + Bull's Strength is typically same or often more AB and damage than Fighter of same level. Clerics also have more spells per day than wizard and druids, allowing them to use round-based buffs all the way to next rest at mid to high levels. When you mix in certain domains (like War or Strength) and the possible Divine Shield and Divine Might, you can easily build a cleric that is stronger buffing himself than an averagely strong fighter in the party.

It's true. This server hates fighters.

I'd say it hates non casters but there's far too many skill boosts for rogues whereas all the fighters get is a bunch of cheating monsters explotiing a design flaw to gain a 90% miss chance when it's supposed to max out at 50% regardless of the source. This bug has been reported to the dev team (at elast twice) and they told me to shut up and gloated about how proud theywere to impliment such anti fighter nonsense. Not good  :roll:.

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Fen'lo Taaran

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2012, 07:14:58 AM »
LOL, right because rogues have it easy. If you pure-build a rogue, apart from the basic roguish things (which every other class outperforms you at), you are borerline useless apart from PvP, or high, high level dungeoning. Also note the server doesn't love rogues. Roguesare lucky to get a decent Hide/MS, even with ranks, SF's, Stealthy +6 dex and a whole stealth kit, you're going to get crapped on by someone that decides to buy a True Seeing potion and only has spot gear equipped, with no ranks in it. Don't mean to dig, but perhaps if you actually spent more time dungeoning and interacting with people, instead of sitting off in Port-A-Lucine bitching about how no one goes there, you might actually know these things.

tzaeru

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2012, 07:24:06 AM »
I'd say it hates non casters but there's far too many skill boosts for rogues whereas all the fighters get is a bunch of cheating monsters explotiing a design flaw to gain a 90% miss chance when it's supposed to max out at 50% regardless of the source.

I only know 3 monsters with 90% concealment and all the other of their stats are so weak that they don't pose much of a danger. Additionally, with Blind Fight (which every fighter should really have) it's 81% miss chance. High, but doable.. And these monsters hurt everyone just as much anyway. Actually with more attacks per round, fighters may even have them easier than cleric or rogue.

And it's possible you guys could be a bit more polite of things.. I'm sure none of the devs and mostly none of the players is there just to make your chosen class a pain to play. :roll:
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Zhernebog

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2012, 07:27:31 AM »
LOL, right because rogues have it easy. If you pure-build a rogue, apart from the basic roguish things (which every other class outperforms you at), you are borerline useless apart from PvP, or high, high level dungeoning. Also note the server doesn't love rogues. Roguesare lucky to get a decent Hide/MS, even with ranks, SF's, Stealthy +6 dex and a whole stealth kit, you're going to get crapped on by someone that decides to buy a True Seeing potion and only has spot gear equipped, with no ranks in it. Don't mean to dig, but perhaps if you actually spent more time dungeoning and interacting with people, instead of sitting off in Port-A-Lucine bitching about how no one goes there, you might actually know these things.
The server loves the hell out of skill-dumping a few levels of rogue. Many even advocate dipping a level or two into it to stay mechanically relevant, which is a dead give-away of a problem.
But if you start with an equivalently well-built fighter, the cleric can become just as good, but never as powerful in sheer ability.
Aside from the to-hit bonus we seem to neglect the increased hit die and lack of losing focus if they're dispelled, which is a huge boon for things like salamanders. Where the greedy, worthless cleric suddenly can't hit the salamanders at all after a larger one dispels them, the warrior can keep on trucking while the party rebuffs them. Any monster with a lucky dispel on a cleric means party wipe if you can't ditch out quickly enough.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 07:49:07 AM by Zhernebog »

Fen'lo Taaran

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2012, 07:29:32 AM »
LOL, right because rogues have it easy. If you pure-build a rogue, apart from the basic roguish things (which every other class outperforms you at), you are borerline useless apart from PvP, or high, high level dungeoning. Also note the server doesn't love rogues. Roguesare lucky to get a decent Hide/MS, even with ranks, SF's, Stealthy +6 dex and a whole stealth kit, you're going to get crapped on by someone that decides to buy a True Seeing potion and only has spot gear equipped, with no ranks in it. Don't mean to dig, but perhaps if you actually spent more time dungeoning and interacting with people, instead of sitting off in Port-A-Lucine bitching about how no one goes there, you might actually know these things.
The server loves the hell out of skill-dumping a few levels of rogue. Many even advocate dipping a level or two into it to stay mechanically relevant, which is a dead give-away of a problem.
But if you start with an equivalently well-built fighter, the cleric can become just as good, but never as powerful in sheer ability.
Aside from the to-hit bonus we seem to neglect the increased hit die and lack of losing focus if they're dispelled, which is a huge boon for things like salamanders. Where the greedy, worthless cleric suddenly can't hit the salamanders at all after a larger one dispels them. Any monster with a lucky dispel means party wipe if you can't ditch out quickly enough.

I agree, the fact skill-dumping can so predominantly happen is a bit of a sad fact, but the monsters/encounters are built around people knowing some of the best builds, I mean honestly, you'd be mad to forgo 3-4 AC, or even 1 AC if you're a low level and just starting off.

Perhaps a script on-equip for armour that takes the skill total of tumble in to account, and then gives a negative dodge AC bonus? Should be able to do that with scripting, no? Grab the characters rank, grab the current skill total. Divide the difference by 5, remove 1 dodge AC per "1" difference after the division.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 07:31:37 AM by Fen'lo Taaran »

Zhernebog

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2012, 07:36:39 AM »
I only know 3 monsters with 90% concealment and all the other of their stats are so weak that they don't pose much of a danger. Additionally, with Blind Fight (which every fighter should really have) it's 81% miss chance. High, but doable..
81% miss means less than one of every five successful attacks matter. This is stupid.
In any other game this would be pointed out as a bug and flaw, it renders physical builds hideously underwhelming, so any of those will outright avoid these monsters. But there are direct counters for every class. Druids can't go near something with high SR and lightning immunity at lower levels.
It's about teamwork. Teamwork is op.

And it's possible you guys could be a bit more polite of things.. I'm sure none of the devs and mostly none of the players is there just to make your chosen class a pain to play. :roll:
If any offense can be drawn from my posts, let it be known that any irritation is sent toward selfish clerics for not being team players. I mean seriously, you're giving this up:
Spoiler: show

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZWYCcIorDk[/youtube]


Also I think it's really silly that dex penalties don't effect tumble. CLANK CLANK DO A BARREL ROLL FULLPLATE.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 07:44:35 AM by Zhernebog »

Troukk

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 07:50:57 AM »
Clerics are easier to solo than fighters. But as it has been said a trillion times, classes are not balanced for soloing. As for grouping, buffing cleric + fighter combo is safer and more versatile than 2 clerics or 2 fighters.
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Mayvind

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2012, 08:46:18 AM »
I  :lolsign: at this thread Class discussion in every second month, if vestment is render +3 there no point using the spell since enchantment armor  is +3, and also magic vestment +5 only when you get to be level 20 pure cleric it already been nerf so true +5 is 20 level pure cleric only i bet you don't have level 20 Cleric ( I do HAHAHA ), divine power and bull str afterward who cares ? the divine power fade faster and it notch str back to normal bull str buff.

Stop worry about how other class doing or how other play theirs class. And whom said fighter not getting love ? the Server is no longer low magic setting the noob weeks show abudant of  magic items for fighter, enchantment, varnishes, potions you name it. I can solo Anubis as fighter/rogue class just fine.

Also this been said thousand of times LOW MAGIC setting is Not WEAK MAGIC. 

P.S STR 24 ? is crisis ? bah a good build Cleric have STR 32 atleast when buffed.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:51:41 AM by Mayvind »

Fen'lo Taaran

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2012, 08:49:54 AM »
Considering how common flame candles are, you farm beatles for an hour, cna you could clear skeletons down 3 levels, just from flame candles with proper tactics. Brooches of Shielding used to be relatively rare, now shield candles drop more than pants on a prom night.

Honoun

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2012, 09:07:48 AM »
Most of these Nerf threads are due to a PvP encounter that went badly for one starting the thread cause they can't play thier antognist that well. I have to wonder if this also is the case here... Please say it's not.

Mrjunkie

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 09:43:40 AM »
 :bonk: Brick the nerfers!

Season of good will folks, not of moaning about discussions held more times than if i were to times my fingers by my toe's!

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 10:36:38 AM »
Clerics excel at soloing. Good for them. If they are explicitly focused on buffing themselves and not the party, they are doing it wrong.

Have you ever seen a fully buffed Cleric get hit by mordekainen's disjunction while he is stuck in? Now that is funny.

Is it a tragedy that rogues are used as a skill dump class? Not really. Was it a tragedy in Guild Wars that -no one- actually played a necromancer as their standard class? No

The server does not hate fighters. Between varnishes, every conceivable buff spell as a potion, ensorcelled arms and armour, and basically infinite feats - where is the hate?
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dutchy

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 12:12:20 PM »
You forget enchanted weapons armor and shields

A player return and in his first week this topic is born. Gotta love these topics

A cleric is better of buffing others and heal duhh

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Fierna

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2012, 12:29:27 PM »
All nerfs like this do is make the people who abuse it find a new way to cheat the system and hurts the ones who are actually playing the social cleric who uses their spells to assist their allies. I don't think those spells should be nerfed, because really the solo cleric out there isn't hurting me or my RP, nor is it breaking the system. Let it be, and focus on having fun IMO. :)

Zhernebog

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2012, 12:44:41 PM »
All nerfs like this do is make the people who abuse it find a new way to cheat the system and hurts the ones who are actually playing the social cleric who uses their spells to assist their allies. I don't think those spells should be nerfed, because really the solo cleric out there isn't hurting me or my RP, nor is it breaking the system. Let it be, and focus on having fun IMO. :)
First of all thanks for a solid, well-reasoned reply instead of a funny quip or cancerous gif image.
Id have to say of all the people cheating the system in potm, one of the tiniest minorities is clerics, while yes they have versatility and power and can become the equivalent of a warrior class, having the divine power buff not stack with bulls isnt a huge nerf and would.force TEAMWORK, which is, imho, the entire point of dungeoning. Its impossible to write a story by yourself, and preventing people from doing so would only lead to a more cooperative community.
Also it might stop you self-buffing clods from not giving me dem buffs.
If I have to shake a cleric down for buffs everytime the group rests, I lose all faith in them and usually will not help.them if they die or start losing.

Badelaire

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2012, 01:25:23 PM »
It's amazing how many people won't even acknowledge the god of a cleric though. I get harped on at sometimes for not providing buffs for someone who can't even say "Thank you to your god". I'll quite happily buff a bunch of fighters up the ying yang (it's part of the cleric's dogma to seek out conflict and aid mercenaries and so on in their battles) if there was some suspension of disbelief at religion in roleplay. Soloing is boring and hard work as a cleric. I might be able to hit 35AB at mid level but that lasts about 5 mins compared to proper melee with extended wards and buffs on them. Nerfs aren't the answer, changes in attitude are and the willingness to seek out others on adventures is.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 01:28:54 PM by Badelaire »

dutchy

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2012, 01:36:15 PM »
It's amazing how many people won't even acknowledge the god of a cleric though. I get harped on at sometimes for not providing buffs for someone who can't even say "Thank you to your god". I'll quite happily buff a bunch of fighters up the ying yang (it's part of the cleric's dogma to seek out conflict and aid mercenaries and so on in their battles) if there was some suspension of disbelief at religion in roleplay. Soloing is boring and hard work as a cleric. I might be able to hit 35AB at mid level but that lasts about 5 mins compared to proper melee with extended wards and buffs on them. Nerfs aren't the answer, changes in attitude are and the willingness to seek out others on adventures is.

Seasonal thinking huh :p

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airengale

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2012, 01:36:53 PM »
In regards to the OP

I think it has been said before, that Enchanted items can already get a +3 to them, and you can start doing that at level 14. Magic Vestment becomes +4 at level 16 cleric and +5 at level 20 cleric.

This is balanced for people who invest in a full cleric. If you're a fighter/cleric build. 5 fighter 15 cleric assuming. Then you'll only ever have +3. People who typically benefit from a +5 Magic Vestment is not the cleric, but the group in later levels. It is essential for end game content that there is a group dynamic to hit the high end dungeons.

For Divine power being able to be casted above Bulls strength, and I've used this before, I don't think it's an issue. This is what can make melee clerics shine if they are intending to be a melee cleric. And it has been said before; Clerics are delicate, a simple strip of their buffs and they become absolutely useless as a melee cleric.

You won't see a support cleric using Divine Power on themselves and then bulls strength, unless it's with a crowbar and you're trying to open a door.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 01:44:08 PM by airengale »


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Ercvadasz

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Re: Nerf the Cleric, 2 spell changes
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2012, 02:00:54 PM »
I would say the following with melee and cleric comparison.
Buff up a level 20 cleric with his own spells, and with the other caster classes (Bard, druid, wizard) and feats.
Now buff up a level 20 fighter with the clerics and the other caster classes spells  and feats.

Cleric will likely beat the Fighter in AB. No matter what you do. HE will have one less attack but that is the only difference. The divine power, favour added together will easily balance out the 4-5 ab difference. Also same with the ranger as well, and ab wise barbs have it a bit better.

Now rogue skill dumping: That and evasion. Evasion is worth a lot.

Cleric vs Meleer disjunction? Any of them gets disjunctioned it is over, without buffs each and everyone dies. Maybe the cleric can rebuff the fighter maybe he cant, maybe he can run away maybe he cannot. (Maybe if he buffs the fighter he can use him as a meatshield.) Also he can easily regain lost AB or AC with recasting the Divine shield and power. Whereas fighter can enter ICE +10 AC -10 AB...and likely will still be hit. (Just think on all those nasty +30 AB critters)

About soloer clerics:
-they exist
-most players support them because:
a, you ask him first to help you retrieve corpses, because he can, since he is a solo build, you will not get much rp(most of the time, but it is not necessary true!), but he will get the job done. And you want only THIS.
b, you buy items off from him, accept his gifts, venture with him to places even if you cant do there anything, why? Because: Free xp, free loot, free sightseeing. You will be his tourist, just he pays you to see how awesome he is
c, you do not stay persistant how you act towards him. if you have the chance to ask help from him, or from two lower level chars, you will ask him, even if you despise the character due to IC reasons or whatnot. OOC rescue before IC reasons and play.

The you in this context does not mean everyone, it means to those who act this way, you know who you are or you do not. Just as long as it is rewarding both
XP, Item, community and whatnot wise to do so, nothing will change.

//I also understand there are a number of clerics who can only buff folks from same religion or themselves or whatnot, so that is of course exluded//
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