Author Topic: Attune Gem  (Read 12167 times)

Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2012, 08:15:35 PM »

Personally the attune gem idea crosses over from low magic to high magic feel to me, if not mechanics. I just would imagine it would fit in better with other settings rather than Ravenloft but its not outright impossible to be compatible too.

I find it hilarious that whenever I point out that we're already knee-deep in High Magic as far as the feel and atmosphere goes, you're amidst those to constantly tell me I'm wrong. >__> Oh, but how the winds turn.
I don't believe we are already in that feel and atmosphere, is why.  :D
Even having a gem attuning system would not do it for sure but I feel we have already stockpiled the server with surrogate spell caster items in the form of loot that a craft to further equip characters would be overkill really. That's my stance.  Green Monster has ideas, and we have good low STR archery options from a system suggestion he/she brought up before but I sincerely don't think this particular idea is needed or would change anything he/she wishes to change and would devalue spell resources further than I would be comfortable with. Low magic means magic is rarer, but the same ruleset and spell set are used as any other setting and it does in any way modify what character classes player's can or will play. It changes NPCs and their cultures and it changes available loot options but it has been stated time and again that particular concessions have to be made to meet a Persistant World Set Up.


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Major Tom

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2012, 08:27:06 PM »
I don't believe we are already in that feel and atmosphere, is why.  :D
Even having a gem attuning system would not do it for sure but I feel we have already stockpiled the server with surrogate spell caster items in the form of loot that a craft to further equip characters would be overkill really. That's my stance.  Green Monster has ideas, and we have good low STR archery options from a system suggestion he/she brought up before but I sincerely don't think this particular idea is needed or would change anything he/she wishes to change and would devalue spell resources further than I would be comfortable with. Low magic means magic is rarer, but the same ruleset and spell set are used as any other setting and it does in any way modify what character classes player's can or will play. It changes NPCs and their cultures and it changes available loot options but it has been stated time and again that particular concessions have to be made to meet a Persistant World Set Up.

You mean like how mass-produced copies of Beowulf's sword Hrunting, the legendary celtic sword Caladbolg (which even has an entry in the 3rd Ed. book Weapons of Legacy), Cu'Chulain's spear, Gae Bolg and more are casually available to anyone and everyone? Or that I've seen level 4's running around with Angel Arms? Or that scrolls are available in abundance, along with magical varnishes, and other enchanted wares? How 'bout the Blade of the Cattle, which just about anyone can get their hands on? Or the numerous other enchanted goods that're overflowing out of every pocket and corner on the server? How 'bout the fact that you can find up to 4-5 Monkey Barrels down in the ML crypts, despite them clearly being some pretty high-grade 'bad juju' items? Or a gazillion-and-three Necklaces of Kali? :P That all sound 'rare' to you? I honestly cannot concede to the idea that we're a Low Magic setting, still, when we have weapons that are in the same tier as freakin' Excalibur as casual, standard loot drops - in a setting that states that loot is meant to be minor-to-none. And if the response to that is 'then how can players kill monsters', then the solution remains the same as I've always said: stop making the monsters overkill. The setting is one where you're pretty much meant to be carrying around standard grade equipment of variable quality (-1 to +1 to damage, at average), fighting creatures that can be felled by such weapons, not everyone swinging around blades wreathed in lightning and energy.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 08:37:14 PM by Major Tom »

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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2012, 08:38:04 PM »
Player characters.  Which neither define or are modified mechanically, by low magic settings.
Count how many known Wizards you know in the module that are not PCs, and then you begin to realize your view is skewed because instead of the one Wizard in your party at the table we have a cast of hundreds of player characters.

Btw, I have never had my immersion broken by items that share names with famous setting lores or legends from real life. Seems you have though, but I did not make those items and I am sure whoever did make them thought they were befitting and it was probably DM Blue or DM EO since they are often the ones who incorporate new items and they both have a very strong grasp of the Ravenloft setting so how about we trust their judgement on that ;) The inability to easily explain why there would be multiple copies of a particular kind of magic sword is one of those aforementioned "concessions that have to be made to accommodate a Persistant World Set Up" unless you are cool with DMs only handing out unique magic swords to whoever they please instead of them being something each player had the ability to go and get for their self. I would not particularly prefer that over having the hard-to-explain copies that perhaps some other character mine knows having one of the same.


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Major Tom

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2012, 08:45:05 PM »
unless you are cool with DMs only handing out unique magic swords to whoever they please instead of them being something each player had the ability to go and get for their self. I would not particularly prefer that over having the hard-to-explain copies that perhaps some other character mine knows having one of the same.

As a matter of fact? Yes, yes, I am. And I say this as a player who is less than likely to get a unique weapon because it's pretty clear that certain DMs don't particularly like me, and the rest just don't know or have an interest in me. I say this as a player who's been ousted from a DM event that the DM initiated TO me, because the DM wanted to give it to someone they liked better. On this server. I say this as a player who is the least likely to benefit from this, simply due to politics, and why do I say this? Because it makes sense - even as a PW server, if not especially as a PW server. Persistent World doesn't mean 'concede to everyone' either. And on Ravenloft being the guy with the unique weapon means you earned your merits, rather than 'oh hey, after farming this place fifty times I stumbled on it'.

Also, this isn't a case of 'whoops, there's more than one magic sword'. This is a case of 'hey, you know that one of a kind, ultra-legendary weapon that spans history itself and everyone knows about? I gots three!' Even then, if you wanted magic swords of this type, there's a simple solution to that: make them a particular brand of magic sword. You know what a magic sword can be? Something as simple as a +1 enhancement to it, and you know what that sword is called? 'An enchanted sword'. It has no legacy attached to it, it's just a particularly magical blade. You know what a magic sword that does 1d4 fire damage is because it has an enchantment placed on the ruby in its pommel? 'An enchanted fire-ruby sword'. No legacy, but its functionality is there.

If your point is that 'oh hey, who cares, it's just a name', let's put that to the test and I'll go ahead and put in an item request for scimitars with the same names as Drizzt's swords, Twinkle and Icingdeath. If it's 'just names', then it shouldn't be a problem in the slightest, right?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 08:50:30 PM by Major Tom »

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dutchy

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2012, 08:51:00 PM »
unless you are cool with DMs only handing out unique magic swords to whoever they please instead of them being something each player had the ability to go and get for their self. I would not particularly prefer that over having the hard-to-explain copies that perhaps some other character mine knows having one of the same.

As a matter of fact? Yes, yes, I am. And I say this as a player who is less than likely to get a unique weapon because it's pretty clear that certain DMs don't particularly like me, and the rest just don't know or have an interest in me. I say this as a player who's been ousted from a DM event that the DM initiated TO me, because the DM wanted to give it to someone they liked better. On this server. I say this as a player who is the least likely to benefit from this, simply due to politics, and why do I say this? Because it makes sense - even as a PW server, if not especially as a PW server. Persistent World doesn't mean 'concede to everyone' either. And on Ravenloft being the guy with the unique weapon means you earned your merits, rather than 'oh hey, after farming this place fifty times I stumbled on it'.

Also, this isn't a case of 'whoops, there's more than one magic sword'. This is a case of 'hey, you know that one of a kind, ultra-legendary weapon that spans history itself and everyone knows about? I gots three!' Even then, if you wanted magic swords of this type, there's a simple solution to that: make them a particular brand of magic sword. You know what a magic sword can be? Something as simple as a +1 enhancement to it, and you know what that sword is called? 'An enchanted sword'. It has no legacy attached to it, it's just a particularly magical blade. You know what a magic sword that does 1d4 fire damage is because it has an enchantment placed on the ruby in its pommel? 'An enchanted fire-ruby sword'. No legacy, but its functionality is there.


am not trying to be a dick just asking ok?

if after 2 years a dm still hasnt given you any of such gear, then would you then make a topic or complain to your buddies in tells that dm's are favoring others?

cause one problem leads to another.

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Major Tom

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2012, 08:52:59 PM »
You do realize that such talks go on even now. And that any prior occasion of mentioning DMs playing favourites is immediately hushed up and warnings are given to the users that post such threads, right?

I don't even advocate the Attune Gem thing - I just find it questionable that the people who defend the server from the points I make, are making similar, to the same, points as I do, when it suits them.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 08:59:54 PM by Major Tom »

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Elfric

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2012, 08:53:02 PM »
Low magic setting... The enchanting craft being available to players that meet a certain set of skills, yet still is technically public  argues against it.

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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2012, 09:07:50 PM »
I'll go ahead and put in an item request for scimitars with the same names as Drizzt's swords, Twinkle and Icingdeath. If it's 'just names', then it shouldn't be a problem in the slightest, right?
Actually, good example, and I personally would not mind it. As long as it would be a +1 scimitar with d4 cold damage or something and not the +2 defender with dispel fire on hit properties etc.  The class of the item matters a whole hell of a lot more for the sake of the server than the name, even you would agree. There is a stigma against Drizzt Do'Urden that would be a bigger roadblack than those weapons notoriety though. But that has become well off Green Monster's idea.

As a closing thought to you Tom, nothing you say is wrong man but its just subjective thoughts presented as absolutes.  If you would like to make a horror persistent world where the level cap was 10, the monsters all sucked, and the loot all sucked and the only named weaponry were dm handouts and call it Ravenloft that is a perfectly legit thing to desire, but PotM is not that server. Those things don't define Ravenloft to me, they seem to have a huge imprint on your impression of the setting though its very evident. PotM has been the collective creative hobby of many many developers and scripters and writers over 7 years and it includes people that know the setting extremely well and love the setting. They have implemented their vision of the setting while make their acceptable level of concessions for a PW set up.  It may not suit your taste, and that's fine and no one would hold that against you but being so adamantly against fundamental design choices of this server's backroom staff does lead one to wonder what the server holds as an allure that you would be so enthusiastic about pointing out its shortcomings in your opinions over and over expecting different results. Sometimes in life we have to recognize our voice is the minority voice not shared as enthusiasticly by others as we like and move on.


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dutchy

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2012, 09:10:03 PM »
You do realize that such talks go on even now. And that any prior occasion of mentioning DMs playing favourites is immediately hushed up and warnings are given to the users that post such threads, right?

I don't even advocate the Attune Gem thing - I just find it questionable that the people who defend the server from the points I make, are making similar, to the same, points as I do, when it suits them.

sorry but you are not giving a clear awnser in my eyes, its beating around the bush.

if YOU played here 2 years in a row (il leave it to you if you do it with 1 char or several)   and you did not get an item such as that and YOU think you did your best, thus you honestly believe you did good roleplay had fun interactions etc.
and you would would see someone pass by with a sword of awesomeniss not just any sword of awesomeniss but the one made out of pure awesomeness.
would you not go...wtf    and post that things should be difrant or altered?    
cause many would and and thats not really something to be ashamed off cause we all want to be equal. (we cant all BE equal but thats a difrant story)  


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Major Tom

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2012, 09:15:24 PM »
[I did read this, just snipping it down to signify that I'm responding to it specifically]

I'm.. honestly not trying to present this stuff as absolutes. Hard to believe, I'm sure.. I'm just.. so exhausted by what feels like an uphill battle, in-game, and on the forums. Ironically enough, in an answer to dutchy's remark, I have been playing here for almost two years in a row (three or so years off-and-on from the beginning), and I actually do feel this way even now, just less in regards to loot - because items are just items to me - but rather in terms of roleplay and atmosphere. It feels like, more or less, every turn is met by people telling you 'no, shut up and sit down, things are awesome the way that they are, nothing is wrong.' Even minor ideas or suggestions get this treatment, and it starts to feel as though the only way to get a word in edgewise is to practically yell it in peoples' faces, y'know what I mean..? It's tiring. So for whatever it's worth, I apologize if, or probably more accurately that, my approach is abrasive.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 09:20:24 PM by Major Tom »

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dutchy

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2012, 09:40:11 PM »
you got a point there tom boy.

but if we indeed lost all the magic items  just not the hecots cutter and all other stuff then i am pretty sure your char is butt naked as would everybody else that has a char older then 1 week (and even thats a large stretch).

so that means everything left is a normal cloack a normal armor and a normal weapon (that or crafted items)    your additions will be dm given and or by a wiz as a temporary buff.

thats a low magic server for the PLAYERS  side of life   not the setting, as crimson said   wich i agreed with the setting itself is low magic, its just us idjits that walk around with such gear cause we asked for it and kept asking and it kept beeing implemented and it got altered it got balanced monsters alterd and balanced so we are still on par its just from an odd angle the same magic or more magic depends on the angle.

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2012, 11:15:46 PM »
Just to point out, the legendary weapons are probably only included because they feature in the Castlevania series of which a great many loot items are taken from. Just hit a Castlevania wiki equipment list to prove that. As for attuned gems, a recentish addition to CoA, I recall factions stockpiling them until the showdown that usually occurs between each other (since CoA long departed from being an excellent FR server and into the realms of PW Action where you'd be hard pressed to keep up with events after even a week's absence) and having a load of nobody hanger on footsoldiers of any class being able to throw missle storms at you with practically no effort.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 12:03:41 AM by SwanSong »

dutchy

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2012, 08:24:26 AM »
also some items are sorta like easter eggs   with the names and properties.

sorta like a hommage to the other games.

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2012, 09:27:57 AM »
i dont understand, why would i buy from the store when i could get it directly
from the caster?  

if your.friends with a caster ,get them for free

more items to hoarde, encouraging solo

The caster has to buy the gem to be attuned. At great cost. If you'd read the whole thread, you'd know that you can't attune just any old aventurine you find in loot. It has to be a gem specially cut to hold the magical energies. So unless your buddy is both very wealthy and very generous, you're not getting them for free. If you're very luck, you're getting them at cost. And your buddy can't churn out a hundred of these a day, either. If your buddy can cast 3 lvl 5 spells per rest cycle, that's how many lvl 5 gems he can produce per rest.

What might work on low level, low magic CoA doesn't necessarily work here. The level of power and ability to accrue wealth is far greater on PoTM. Personally I'd like to see the bard song and animal companion changes implemented here than the gem attuning.

If you mean CoA's Celestial Chorus bard song item, I'd have to vote no on that, despite the fact that I love playing bards of all sorts. On CoA my lvl 7 bard / 4 fighter can cause an entire party, including herself, to regenerate 4 hp per round for ten rounds, 7 times a day. That's just too powerful. She can likely solo just about anywhere on the server, but doesn't because I never find just killing monsters without anyone to talk to fun. If I wanted to do that, I'd play the OC.

I would, though, like to see the power of the bard song spread out a bit more across levels. Right now, it's just "meh" until lvl 11, then suddenly, drastically starts getting more powerful every level after.

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2012, 02:38:30 PM »
For what its worth tom I also feel like we have gone from a low magic setting into a high magic setting. Every player trader has a handfuls of swords with 1d4 fire damage, or cold damage attached, and they sell them openly without anyone batting an eye lid, zombie flesh rings, zombie skin armor, the Vistani camp always seems to have 6-8 pages of magical amulets and other assorted item types every day when I log in, magical Varnishes are giving us mage-in-a-bottle characters, your right these Legacy items are every where and you don't even need to quest to get them.
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dutchy

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2012, 02:54:58 PM »
Well there is a way out of that but Uh would be messy.

Guard Factions. They do it with flintlocks and drugs but I do not see how they know its vraja 

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Green Monster

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2012, 06:23:21 PM »
This is just not a low magic server. CoA is a low magic server, where my lvl 11 took 2 years to get to lvl 11 and has as her best piece of equipment a longsword with +1 attack and +2 sonic damage (and that was a reward from a DM, not loot). Here, my two week old character is lvl 9 and has full plate +1, boots of +1 ac, and a katana with +1 enhancement and +1d6 dmg vs evil. All without even trying hard. At all. And without DM gifts. The "low magic" argument is just silly.

Basically, the other arguments I'm seeing here boil down to "Waaahh......  people might go out and have FUN when they can't find a caster to bring along". Gee....  people having fun while playing a game. How terrible.  :roll:  If people who want to go out and slay some monsters can't do it because they can't find a caster to bring along, they log out. If people have to pay a great deal of coin for attuned gems, they're still going to prefer to have a caster. Simple economics.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 07:04:03 PM by Green Monster »
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Major Tom

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2012, 06:44:21 PM »
Preachin' to the jaded choir there, Green. >_>

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Green Monster

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2012, 07:30:07 PM »
I know you get what I'm saying, Tom.

I'd really rather see that group of three good-aligned warriors and a rogue go out and do something because they have some attuned gems stock-piled than just sit around in the Morninglord Temple because the only mage around was bragging on what a great necromancer he is (true story). Sure, they're not going to make nearly as much profit because the gems cost them money, but hey, at least they don't get bored and log out (which is what happened). As long as they can make a better profit by having a caster in the group, they will, when possible.

Meanwhile, those people with the soloist mentality will continue to do as they've always done: create clerics with war domain (regardless of deity) and go out and solo. Those people don't need the gems, and, frankly, they're not hurting anyone but themselves.
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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2012, 07:35:18 PM »
The "low magic" argument is just silly.

Whatever your thoughts on the statement that the server is low magic aside, if your suggestion is going to make the situation worse, that is a relevant observation.

Quote
"Waaahh......  people might go out and have FUN when they can't find a caster to bring along".

You know you're debating from a place of strength when you paraphrase your opponents as cry-babies :P
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Major Tom

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2012, 07:38:15 PM »
The "low magic" argument is just silly.

Whatever your thoughts on the statement that the server is low magic aside, if your suggestion is going to make the situation worse, that is a relevant observation.

Quote
"Waaahh......  people might go out and have FUN when they can't find a caster to bring along".

You know you're debating from a place of strength when you paraphrase your opponents as cry-babies :P

As opposed to the other side of the table consistently mocking, or calling people cry-babies, whiners and telling them to quit bitching whenever these matters come up in other threads - something that even some DMs are guilty of. My finely tuned kettle nostril smells black on you, pot.*

*Kindly note that I point out that I am the kettle in this, meaning I am of subsequent guilt in turn.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 07:41:19 PM by Major Tom »

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2012, 07:41:30 PM »
As opposed to the other side of the table consistently mocking, or calling people cry-babies, whiners and telling them to quit bitching whenever these matters come up in other threads - something that even some DMs are guilty of. My finely tuned kettle nostril smells black on you, pot.

Oddly, I've tried to make precise, to-the-point arguments and been largely ignored up until now.

Ho-hum.
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Major Tom

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2012, 07:42:40 PM »
Perhaps the same could be said of all forum debaters. But enough words, have at you!

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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2012, 07:51:17 PM »
The "low magic" argument is just silly.

Whatever your thoughts on the statement that the server is low magic aside, if your suggestion is going to make the situation worse, that is a relevant observation.

A lvl 5 wizard would be able to create, at a cost to him/her self of a few thousand gold, 3 single-use haste gems per rest cycle. I don't see how that would make this into "ohmagerd, I'm SO l337!" And I could see that the number of gems creatable in a day could be limited to one. It is, after all, a lesser form of enchanting.


Quote
"Waaahh......  people might go out and have FUN when they can't find a caster to bring along".

You know you're debating from a place of strength when you paraphrase your opponents as cry-babies :P

All you're doing is repeating the same argument over and over. I refute it, and you ignore what I've said and merely repeat yourself again. Now, I will say it one last time: The ones who are the repeat offender soloists are the high lvl clerics, and there's no way to stop them from doing it. So, instead, let groups  of non-casters have an alternative to sitting around twiddling their thumbs and then logging out when the casters are out soloing. If they have to pay for the gems, then simple economics dictates that they'll prefer to have a caster. If they can't find one, then at least they can still go have FUN.

You keep arguing that non-casters will suddenly start soloing if these gems are available. I say it's not going to happen. Because why? Because those players who have the soloing mentality are not making non-casters.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 07:55:26 PM by Green Monster »
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Re: Attune Gem
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2012, 08:21:08 PM »
blaming only clerics, dont forget mages and druids are casters too.
oh the days i had fun as a druid and often only caster in a large melee group.
try asking them along.
theres plenty of consumables now that would not stop a non caster group
also.