Author Topic: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.  (Read 3849 times)

Time_Stomped

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10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« on: December 24, 2012, 08:35:00 PM »
I'm seeing the insta burn mechanic being abused.

It might be better to have at least a long period of time to burn down a corpse, at least 5-15 minutes of game time.
Istavan Donner

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2012, 07:12:48 AM »
I think the only effect this would have is people hiding the bodies better, before burning them.
I don't think it'll adress much of the grieving or abuse being done. Since it's mostly the players at fault here?



Perhaps add a certain object requirement, like a reagant needed to incinerate the corpses? A burning pyre perhaps?
That way it would add a cost to burning down a corpse and require you to either buy the item first or lumber a heavy item (stack of wood?) around with you at all times.

You could even take it a step further and see if you could make a placeable pyre upon using the item, instead of just a reagant requirement.
This way you could (if possible) script a timer for a corpse to be incinerated after being placed in the built pyre (like a container) for X amount of uninterrupted time.
I'm not sure if any of this would reduce much of the grief though and would be worth investing time in, seems like a lot of work for the devteam.
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Ercvadasz

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2012, 07:42:28 AM »
erm...what is this 10 seconds to faux permakill actually?
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Silverfox

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2012, 09:00:43 AM »
Corpses are heavy and difficult to travel far with. Pop a campfire in the outskirts, use the body on it, viola pile of ash that you can run away with and hide.
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Norture

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2012, 02:22:46 PM »
Who's going around burning corpses? Generally you have to have a damn good reason to do it, you can't just go around burning every corpse you come across.

Similarly, there's a number of people making enemies this new char week. If you play aggressively and make enemies, realize that this'll happen. And if you don't have friends, you're screwed.

ManticoreRO

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2012, 02:27:20 PM »
Who's going around burning corpses? Generally you have to have a damn good reason to do it, you can't just go around burning every corpse you come across.

Similarly, there's a number of people making enemies this new char week. If you play aggressively and make enemies, realize that this'll happen. And if you don't have friends, you're screwed.

Poor Marie :)

Anyway, on topic. There are so many other ways to do this. Many of them by keeping the pc alive(using subdual in pvp). People burn the bodies because they think it is the only way to stay safe. I do not agree on this.
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2012, 02:48:56 PM »
Who's going around burning corpses? Generally you have to have a damn good reason to do it, you can't just go around burning every corpse you come across.

Similarly, there's a number of people making enemies this new char week. If you play aggressively and make enemies, realize that this'll happen. And if you don't have friends, you're screwed.

Poor Marie :)

Anyway, on topic. There are so many other ways to do this. Many of them by keeping the pc alive(using subdual in pvp). People burn the bodies because they think it is the only way to stay safe. I do not agree on this.

Agreed. Had this conversation in game. When you burn someone all you're doing is prolonging hostilities, and if it isn't done right you're fueling what can become OOC resentment. It just makes things ugly. I have to give Marie credit for contacting OOC and trying to find the best way to approach the conflict. That's how these things should be handled imo, both parties are just here to have fun.
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Time_Stomped

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2012, 03:13:27 PM »
Also characters instant burning corpses and then appearing to be squeaky clean instead of smelling like ash and burning flesh seems like cheesing.  If anything there should be something noticeable for doing this.
Istavan Donner

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2012, 03:29:36 PM »
Never been burned as a corpse yet, but usually my RP sessions i get K.O-ed, instead of killed. Then picked up and moved to another area, when in i walked with said guy and Rp-ed being on his shoulder or back or what ever the case may have been.  I like this way.

Even my first time playing here, i ran into twin necromancers under the temple, we fought and then a fireball ended the scene, instead of lugging my corpse, they raised me, and in a tell said okay we are dragging your corpse, I agreed and followed. They "raised me at the new spot.

I find it sad that so many are not having the same fun I get from these tense sessions.

Burning a corpse should only be done under the guise of a plague. That and the instant effact of the burn is a bit much. Unless you have a Crematorium, it takes awhile for a human to burn into ash, most campfires are not hot enough, only leaving a charred corpse if done by tossing a body on a fire, that would weightless, but still retain most of it's shape.  I'm an EMT, and have seen this happen. (poor guy) 

Silverfox

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2012, 05:40:09 PM »
Idk. With some people, it seems like death & dishonour isn't enough to get them to leave you alone.
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Blight

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2012, 07:11:32 PM »
Case in point, Silverfox. I've only just burned my first corpse myself, after eight and some years playing here. Burning a corpse is the very last option that should be considered, given the fact that nobody enjoys being dead for long. However when it comes to burning a corpse, it's very difficult to divide between what you know of the player and what you know of the character. Will this player allow his character to lose and just die? Will the conflict end there? There are an unfortunate number of players who can't separate themselves from their characters. I don't blame them, i've been there. It can be very hard to lose.

I know, for me, PvP is something I detest. While i've only burned a corpse once, if i know a character/player will not allow himself to lose and continue the conflict past what should have been a clear resolution, then yes... I will burn the corpse, if there is sufficient in-character reasoning to do so.

Burning a corpse is the final blow for some. A clear, obvious, conflict resolved. Perhaps for the preservation of the character, or simply one of two foes finally standing victorious on a conflict that should have but was not ended when it should have been.

Furthermore, a burnt corpse is in no way "permakilled." 2500 gold is pocket change, in NCW and otherwise. Creating mechanics like "smells" and "burn timers" won't solve the problem, because the problem you describe is not with others, but yourself. Put your trust in other players to roleplay burning a corpse effectively and properly. Putting mechanics to force roleplay in a specific direction is, respectively, a terrible idea and undermines the point of roleplay; it becomes "Role-Told" and will in no way rectify the problem you describe.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 07:18:26 PM by Jessefries »
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Time_Stomped

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2012, 03:48:33 AM »
I wouldn't call it force roleplay so much as preventing someone killing a person and having their entire body get put into their pockets instantly to be speed hauled off to some dark corner of the core lands.

You should work for your ninja killing skills.  Otherwise every PC becomes a magical ninja killing assassin in every conflict.
Istavan Donner

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2012, 08:54:05 AM »
I think Jessefries is partially right, this issue can't be resolved by enforcing mechanics or additional systems on burning a corpse.
At least I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference whether it's an almost instant or a 10 second action.

To prevent this kind of thing you'd have to implement a rather large system around it to truly slow down those who do exploit the mechanic.
And in the end that will likely mostly end up bothering the ones that didn't abuse it anyhow. Or being a lot of work for devs to implement.



I'm not sure how much the corpseburning actually adds to the RP of the server or realism though, what is the reasoning behind not removing it entirely?
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Fen'lo Taaran

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2012, 09:24:29 AM »
I think Jessefries is partially right, this issue can't be resolved by enforcing mechanics or additional systems on burning a corpse.
At least I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference whether it's an almost instant or a 10 second action.

To prevent this kind of thing you'd have to implement a rather large system around it to truly slow down those who do exploit the mechanic.
And in the end that will likely mostly end up bothering the ones that didn't abuse it anyhow. Or being a lot of work for devs to implement.



I'm not sure how much the corpseburning actually adds to the RP of the server or realism though, what is the reasoning behind not removing it entirely?

It adds to the server and realism, the same way that the white light adds to it.

shadymerchant

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 07:58:12 PM »
I think this an issue dependent entirely on the the attitude amongst the player base and what is encouraged amongst said player base. I've been on servers where PVP was much more frequent, but moving bodies was considered rude and burning a corpse was anathema unless you were literally in a role playing position to declare a blood feud. The result of this was people were not terrified that conflict would lead to losing their character for weeks a time. You battle it out, someone loses, and you move on. Yeah, occasionally you'd run into folks who wouldn't drop it, and you'd end up with a conflict without a resolution, but the community (and the dm's) were usually okay with it escalating at that point.


When I compare that attitude to the one on this server, where players will burn the perceived enemy because they want to stand as the lone remaining voice in an argument about petty crap, I am rather flabbergasted. The willingness of players to stomp all over someone else, with no consideration given to the fact that that person is also playing a character they enjoy, is really the low point of this community as a whole.

Alas, it is encouraged the design of the server and the system that we play in where the hiding of someone's ashes is perfectly legitimate.

Ovidiu_Lacusta

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2012, 08:31:26 PM »
Quote
Alas, it is encouraged the design of the server and the system that we play in where the hiding of someone's ashes is perfectly legitimate.

I actually have to say this is not the case.  We say it is legitimate, but I haven't seen that pan out.   As someone who PvP's from time to time in support of ongoing storylines, I am certain I am viewed negatively by some in the community.  I've gotten hate mail about it, and I'm not the servers most frequent PvPer by a long shot.  Maybe it's because I do it with meaning. ;)

I reported that corpses don't stay in their stored locations and it was never acknowledged.  I stopped hiding bodies.

I took screenshots of one corpse in particular, in the coordinates where I left it.  And when I didn't find the body, with the cooperation of the dead PC I asked a DM to release the players body to me, which was ignored and they then revived the PC through some other means, drumming up a way to do it ICly.  The player and I were surprised that the screenshot had no apparent validity nor was my prior roleplay of hiding the corpse of any apparent value.

So I guess I'm confused how I had the cooperation of the PC and how the encouraged design of the server was deliberately deviated from, and an in-character story more or less derailed because it sounds like the DM in question was protecting someone from me, who I was communicating well with OOCly already.

Moral of the story?  I am so confused in what situations DMs decide to intervene upon.  Players are expected to cooperate to tell their own stories, and conflicts, then we ask for DM assistance for a corpse-location bug and a different STORY is told instead.    Is it hands on, or hands off?

More important than my little scenario here, is your point about the attitude Shady.  Was a DM refusing me the right to dig up a PC I had offed because it looked like one of these hollow NCW insta-kills?  Are players co-operating so poorly that DMs have to protect us from eachother?

I'll tell you what is worse than someone who kills you for no reason.  A PC that trivializes your characters roleplay with contemporary/anachronistic humor, PCs that make antagonistic roleplay and think themselves free from consequences, who seem quite willing to go great lengths to make you feel like your character does not belong well into OOCness.  Someone who drives you to eventually kill them, being true to your own character, who then says you've killed them for no reason. ;)

I think this NCW PvP isn't for the sake of PvP.  It's people belittling, harassing other characters ICly, and paying the price for it.  Petty crap, as Shady said.  If your concept is one that trolls others relentlessly, please be prepared for eventual closure.  Perhaps these PCs were never intended to last longer than the week.

shadymerchant

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2012, 09:05:54 PM »
Quote
Alas, it is encouraged the design of the server and the system that we play in where the hiding of someone's ashes is perfectly legitimate.


I'll tell you what is worse than someone who kills you for no reason.  A PC that trivializes your characters roleplay with contemporary/anachronistic humor, PCs that make antagonistic roleplay and think themselves free from consequences, who seem quite willing to go great lengths to make you feel like your character does not belong well into OOCness.  Someone who drives you to eventually kill them, being true to your own character, who then says you've killed them for no reason. ;)

I think this NCW PvP isn't for the sake of PvP.  It's people belittling, harassing other characters ICly, and paying the price for it.  Petty crap, as Shady said.  If your concept is one that trolls others relentlessly, please be prepared for eventual closure.  Perhaps these PCs were never intended to last longer than the week.

Our role, as I understand it as players, is to be storytellers. When you hide someone's corpse without the intent and/or plan to have them return, without their cooperation, that is no longer working to tell a story with the other player. However, under the current ruleset it is still perfectly legal. The caveat to this, as I recall seeing, is that any body can eventually be recovered. The ashes remain in the game. This of course ignores the gigantic size of the server, the ability to hide a body in a locked location, and how unreliable/inconsistent it is to include "Vistani help," as a relief valve. Some players can get a DM within hours to provide this. Sometimes it takes months. Part of this depends on the dead player in question and whether the DM's want to see them return at all.

It's a bad system that is often abused.

But getting back to your first point. I don't think that is a big deal if you start your roleplaying with a clear idea of who you want to include. That is, of course, somewhat of a learning curve. Having been here for so many years, I learned which players to never involve myself with. I want to tell a story with other people, but some people are simply too disruptive to that process to be included. On the flipside I have also found a number of players that are reliable and I trust a great deal, like yourself. While many of your characters know my own, Joe Sixpack is likely to have never heard of me because I know who they are, who their friends are, the bubble they keep, and I stay away from it.

Occasionally something doesn't pan out, but I chalk that up to my own mistake these days. I picked the wrong person. They weren't ready. I write them off and move on. We both enjoy the game more in the future.

At no point do I want to purposely engage them in further antagonism that may just drive them to tears behind their keyboard. That is silly.

Zhernebog

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2013, 11:10:12 AM »
The caveat to this, as I recall seeing, is that any body can eventually be recovered. The ashes remain in the game. This of course ignores the gigantic size of the server, the ability to hide a body in a locked location, and how unreliable/inconsistent it is to include "Vistani help," as a relief valve. Some players can get a DM within hours to provide this. Sometimes it takes months. Part of this depends on the dead player in question and whether the DM's want to see them return at all.

It's a bad system that is often abused.
When I was still a fledgeling in the server I engaged in corpse hiding a certain person because it seemed like the only way to remove them from the game. What I took away from the experience was simply:
This server is gigantic. And lots of it is immersive and beautiful, but utterly wasted space. Ideal for corpse hiding. Has anyone ever walked into the vineyards at the corner of barovia? Nobody ever goes there.
It's become a running gag among my bubble that if you want to hide a corpse, "Go to kroftsburg, nobody goes to kroftsburg"

Honoun

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2013, 11:40:53 AM »
Actually I go to Krofburg a lot  :P

shadymerchant

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2013, 03:48:09 PM »
The caveat to this, as I recall seeing, is that any body can eventually be recovered. The ashes remain in the game. This of course ignores the gigantic size of the server, the ability to hide a body in a locked location, and how unreliable/inconsistent it is to include "Vistani help," as a relief valve. Some players can get a DM within hours to provide this. Sometimes it takes months. Part of this depends on the dead player in question and whether the DM's want to see them return at all.

It's a bad system that is often abused.
When I was still a fledgeling in the server I engaged in corpse hiding a certain person because it seemed like the only way to remove them from the game. What I took away from the experience was simply:
This server is gigantic. And lots of it is immersive and beautiful, but utterly wasted space. Ideal for corpse hiding. Has anyone ever walked into the vineyards at the corner of barovia? Nobody ever goes there.
It's become a running gag among my bubble that if you want to hide a corpse, "Go to kroftsburg, nobody goes to kroftsburg"


Funny enough, the player who you regularly hid was on the other day on a completely different character that the cult also killed and hid hoping someone had found his body after a month of his remains being hidden from him or a DM would assist him so he could play again.

It's great that we can do that to other players.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 03:51:10 PM by shadymerchant »

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2013, 04:54:26 PM »
I can't help but feel that somewhere, a dev is rolling in his grave. We're presented with a lovely, well-crafted server with tons of beautiful and varied areas meant for RP, and the first thing someone can think of is, "Wow... look at this place. I bet I can hide a body here and nobody will ever find it."
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 05:02:05 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Ercvadasz

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2013, 05:03:32 PM »
I can't help but feel that somewhere, a dev is rolling in his grave. We're presented with a lovely, well-crafted server with tons of beautiful and varied areas meant for RP, and the first thing someone can think of is, "Wow... look at this place. I bet I can hide a body here and nobody will ever find it."

Well, i recently heard someone say how this char of his/hers is actually his/her Hack-and-Slash character, he/she has other characters which he/she uses for roleplay.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 05:05:08 PM by Ercvadasz »
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Feronius

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2013, 05:16:33 PM »
I can't help but feel that somewhere, a dev is rolling in his grave. We're presented with a lovely, well-crafted server with tons of beautiful and varied areas meant for RP, and the first thing someone can think of is, "Wow... look at this place. I bet I can hide a body here and nobody will ever find it."

Well, i recently heard someone say how this char of his/hers is actually his/her Hack-and-Slash character, he/she has other characters which he/she uses for roleplay.


So do I. But they're on actual Hack-and-Slash games.
Hint, this is an actual roleplaying game (or server at least.)


But I highly doubt such people read threads like this anyhow or bother checking the forums at all.
(It would cost time you could potentially spend grinding and farming things that haven't been bugfixed yet!)

It does however make me ponder whether there's actually any RP value in the entire burning of corpses mechanic, at all.
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Silverfox

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2013, 06:49:48 PM »
Does make transporting the remains easier, and given people's penchant for returning to life and going back into swing after a minute or two (I'm totally guilty of this too), I can see why people would want to do this.

In fact, just the other day I asked someone to take my character's body and "bury it" out back in Degannwy, because it was a more appropriate reaction to a felled hostile than just leaving the body there for someone to pick up and raise.

Bit of swings and roundabouts though. I suspect this is more due to players feeling like this is how they need to solve a problem, given a lack of alternatives. After all, if you don't burnhide your enemy, more often than not they'll just come back and make life difficult for you. Doubly so, then, that there's a problem with the mindset of the hiders, and the victims. As one tips the other's hand often enough.
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Zhernebog

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Re: 10 seconds to faux-permakill in NCW.
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2013, 08:02:53 PM »
Funny enough, the player who you regularly hid was on the other day on a completely different character that the cult also killed and hid hoping someone had found his body after a month of his remains being hidden from him or a DM would assist him so he could play again.

It's great that we can do that to other players.
I hid him twice.
The first time, I gave him back and he promised to stop being cancerous and constantly aggressive. The second I let him stay where he was. And all his ooc bitching and moaning enforced the decision that leaving him where he was, was in itself fine. Had he been polite a single time I might have been sympathetic. His characters are hugely disruptive and addicted to back stabbing, especially backstabbing the cultists who were responsible for his second character's death.

That being said, somebody went to kroftburg!? Stay outta kroftburg!