Author Topic: Encouraging RP inside the city  (Read 9006 times)

Feronius

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Encouraging RP inside the city
« on: December 24, 2012, 10:10:04 AM »
Short version:

1. Open the city gates at 6, close them at 19. (Instead of opening them only from 5-18) This makes sense lorewise.
2. Remove or decrease the amount of wererat spawns in the streets of Vallaki (especially around the better guarded districts.)

Discuss.



Original post:

Spoiler: show
Would it be an outrageous suggestion to ask for some small changes that promote RP within the city of Vallaki? Even during the night.
I just think it's crude there's an amazing city to RP in, but almost everyone prefers to spend time outside of it's gates instead.
And the server actually encourages them to do so, living outside of the city rather than in it. (Doesn't that sound weird to you?)

Of course the outskirts will always be a hub, these suggestions are to discourage RP within the city less. Currently the server is very unfriendly mechanically to RPers within the city.
The current systems are very unfriendly towards people who actually abide the lore, you often end up locked inside at night with no options to RP.




I. Delaying the City Gates
Barovians are early people, have the gates open at 6, instead of 5, and possibly close at 19, instead of 18?
I know the difference is less than 15 minutes each cycle, but it's still an additional 15 minutes to move in or out of the city, which makes perfect sense lorewise.
(You could always travel through the sewers, but in the case of most locals this wouldn't be a realistic choice.)


II. Altering the Wererat spawns
The story and lore behind this is great, but even the lore speaks of lycanthropes not being a too common sight?
Focus the wererat spawns around the shabby parts of town (the slums, docks, market) and lessen or remove some in the better guarded districts?
The current amount and level of spawns have undesired side-effects, such as rendering the city itself a very unlikely choice for (outdoor) RP scenes or events. Wasted potential.
(Locals would obviously still hide inside at night. But even the option to be able to walk from the Ezrite church to the Blue Water tavern at night doubles your chance in finding RP.)



I figured I'd keep it with these 2 suggestions for now, see how people respond to these suggested changes.
Don't see this as something that compromises the fear of the night or the lore, it truly does not. In fact, it encourages MPC encounters outside of the outskirts.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 07:02:00 AM by Feronius »

Bardboy

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2012, 10:21:09 AM »
A wise Iconoclast once whispered "Build it, and they will come"
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herkles

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2012, 10:28:10 AM »

I. Delaying the City Gates
Barovians are early people, have the gates open at 6, instead of 5, and possibly close at 19, instead of 18?
I know the difference is less than 15 minutes each cycle, but it's still an additional 15 minutes to move in or out of the city, which makes perfect sense lorewise.
(You could always travel through the sewers, but in the case of most locals this wouldn't be a realistic choice.)

Not to mention spawns do not well spawn till it is 19 at night. So having the gates close and other methods to get into the city aside from the sewers could be good.


II. Altering the Wererat spawns
The story and lore behind this is great, but even the lore speaks of lycanthropes not being a too common sight?
Focus the wererat spawns around the shabby parts of town (the slums, docks, market) and lessen or remove some in the better guarded districts?
The current amount and level of spawns have undesired side-effects, such as rendering the city itself a very unlikely choice for (outdoor) RP scenes or events. Wasted potential.
(Locals would obviously still hide inside at night. But even the option to be able to walk from the Ezrite church to the Blue Water tavern at night doubles your chance in finding RP.)

I suspect that if the devs ever made richemulet it would be a nightmare! Besides afaik, were-rats are not a monster common in Barovia. I suppose barovia has usurped Richemulet's status as the were-rat domain? Though I know the devs have said in the pas that Vallaki shouldn't have a sewer system. Personally I would go so far as to remove the were-rats, but add some sound effects of screams in its place. Krofberg and The village are creepeir and more gothic IMO then vallaki by a long shot, and a large factor is due to the fact they don't have spawns there.


Feronius

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2012, 10:30:55 AM »
A wise Iconoclast once whispered "Build it, and they will come"

Very true, but that doesn't take away the fact that every fibre of this server discourages RP within the gates.
It would be nice to not have to struggle against every possible server mechanic for once to make RP happen.

This is a roleplaying game, yet RPing a local noble (or any local) currently feels like you're constantly in a rush to prevent getting locked in at night without any RP around.
Or waiting / logging until it's day again. That shouldn't be the promoted attitude. (That... or cheesing with invisibility to semi-OoCly get around the city at night.)



Anyhow, I'd love to hear more comments on the suggested changes? I've heard all the "Make it work, it's not broken" excuses a thousand times now.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 10:36:30 AM by Feronius »

Bardboy

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2012, 10:36:15 AM »
In the same spirit that a Barovian wouldn't be caught in a den of filthy outlanders such as the Lady's rest, there's very little reason for most outlanders to end up in places such as the Broken Bell or the Blue Water, due to the hatred and fear their bring out in the locals.

Building a reason for such gathering outside of usual areas, is where the solution lies. Yes the time sucks and missing the gates by twelve seconds is a pain but sometimes it takes a bit of planning ahead and good things can happen.  :)
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Feronius

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2012, 10:46:06 AM »
Anyhow, I'd love to hear more comments on the suggested changes? I've heard all the "Make it work, it's not broken" excuses a thousand times now.

RPing a character that is true to the setting should NOT feel like the server is punishing you.
RPing something like a local is supposed to be an IC challenge, not an OoC struggle just to make RP happen.
I don't want to spend hours of my real life time planning around the mechanics of the server, because I chose not to roll a dungeoning outlander.



If we'd go by that kind of logic, I guess there should be an angry mob of lvl 10 NPCs spawning as soon as an outlander nears the outskirts. Surely, it's harsh.. but they can make it work?
So can we suggest how to -improve- this server? Rather than to keep defending against positive changes in every thread I see? It's very tiresome.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 11:02:06 AM by Feronius »

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2012, 11:10:22 AM »
You get used to it, Feronius. Sorta. Kinda. Well, not really. But you learn to accept the nihilism of it all, all the same.

"A monumental black hole. A swirling headstone marking the spot where we used to live and play and slaughter the innocent."

Zhernebog

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2012, 03:20:53 PM »
If you want people to not be in the outskirts, go to the myst camp.
If a character is capable of leaving the outskirts, they should. If I know someone is more than capable of leaving, I dont rp with them while theyre in the outskirts if I can avoid it.

Honoun

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2012, 03:45:28 PM »
I spent serveral days in Mist Camp cause I here the "Go to Mist Camp" call all the time... I got bored though as nobody else went there so I eventaully headed back to outskirts, go figure :P

Feronius

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2012, 04:17:54 PM »
This topic isn't ment to get people away from the outskirts, it's to discourage RP within the city less and discuss the suggestions made.
As I think the city itself has some wonderful RP spots, both interior and exterior, that are hardly ever used. Making it more suitable for RP would be great.

It would be appreciated if someone could comment on the actual suggestions in the original post, which have nothing to do with the mist camp or whatever hub.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 05:14:27 PM by Feronius »

Ercvadasz

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012, 05:35:00 PM »
This topic isn't ment to get people away from the outskirts, it's to discourage RP within the city less and discuss the suggestions made.
As I think the city itself has some wonderful RP spots, both interior and exterior, that are hardly ever used. Making it more suitable for RP would be great.

It would be appreciated if someone could comment on the actual suggestions in the original post, which have nothing to do with the mist camp or whatever hub.

pssst, dont! those of us who use the city, know quite a lot of good places, dont let it be known by all!:)
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Green Monster

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2012, 05:49:08 PM »
I do feel bad for native characters. They are being punished for playing natives. Even though it isn't intentional, it's still punishment. Basically, as far as I can see, your choices as a native are to either A) associate with us freak outlanders or B) sit alone somewhere afk all night.

Here's my thoughts:

1) Remove the wererat spawns in all above-ground areas.
2) Make it illegal for non-barovians to be inside the city at night, this reflects the distrust of Barovians for outlanders. Make there be guard patrols in the city at night who are either hostile to outlander faction, or if that seems too harsh, institute a script that follows the following logic:
Quote

Night guard detects PC and PC is wearing a helm:
Night guard runs up to PC and starts following conversation
Conversation 1
Night guard: "Show your face, in the name of the Count!"
Options:
  • 1. [remove helm] (unequips helm slot and starts conversation 1a)
  • 2. [resist] (sets guard to hostile to PC, cancelling conversation with the escape key also sets guard to hostile)

Conversation 1a
If PC is a race that guards are normally hostile to, guard attacks
If PC is native character, then
Night guard: "Carry on, Dom" (or Domna)
Options:
  • 1. [move along]
If PC is outlander faction, but not caliban/tiefling/drow/et-cetera, then
Night guard: "Outlanders are banned from the city at night! Come with me!"
Options:
  • 1. [go quietly] (ports PC to jail, where they will be released at hour 10 minus Charisma modifier (so hour 7 for 16 charisma, hour 12 for 6 charisma, et-cetera)
  • 2. [resist] (sets guard to hostile to PC, cancelling conversation with the escape key also sets guard to hostile)


Night Guard detects PC and PC is NOT wearing a helm:
If PC is a race that guards are normally hostile to, guard attacks, otherwise,
If PC is native character, then no reaction from guard
If PC is outlander faction, but not caliban/tiefling/drow/et-cetera, then start following conversation
Night guard: "HALT! Outlanders are banned from the city at night! Come with me!"
Options:
  • 1. [go quietly] (ports PC to jail, where they will be released at hour 10 minus Charisma modifier (so hour 7 for 16 charisma, hour 12 for 6 charisma, et-cetera)
  • 2. [resist] (sets guard to hostile to PC, cancelling conversation with the escape key also sets guard to hostile)



« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 05:56:29 PM by Green Monster »
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Legion XXI

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2012, 06:01:32 PM »
Quote
I do feel bad for native characters. They are being punished for playing natives. Even though it isn't intentional, it's still punishment. Basically, as far as I can see, your choices as a native are to either A) associate with us freak outlanders or B) sit alone somewhere afk all night.


  Am I missing something?  You guys are the ones that chose to play a stereotypical Barovian native.  Your PC has every right to represent an example of an "Extraordinary Native".  One of the few who strives to be something more than a farmer or dock worker, while still keeping true to where they came from.  One who can slowly put aside his fear as he/she gains skills and feats, using them to brave things that would paralyze their brothers and sisters with fear.  If that's not your thing, then fine.  But don't complain about how nobody wants to sit in the inn with you and talk about the next season's crop, drink Tsukia, and then go back home to the wife and kids.  It's clearly not for everyone, so don't be afraid to add some kind of excitement to your PC's life if you find yourself bored.

Green Monster

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 06:04:22 PM »
Quote
I do feel bad for native characters. They are being punished for playing natives. Even though it isn't intentional, it's still punishment. Basically, as far as I can see, your choices as a native are to either A) associate with us freak outlanders or B) sit alone somewhere afk all night.


  Am I missing something?  You guys are the ones that chose to play a stereotypical Barovian native.  Your PC has every right to represent an example of an "Extraordinary Native".  One of the few who strives to be something more than a farmer or dock worker, while still keeping true to where they came from.  One who can slowly put aside his fear as he/she gains skills and feats, using them to brave things that would paralyze their brothers and sisters with fear.  If that's not your thing, then fine.  But don't complain about how nobody wants to sit in the inn with you and talk about the next season's crop, drink Tsukia, and then go back home to the wife and kids.  It's clearly not for everyone, so don't be afraid to add some kind of excitement to your PC's life if you find yourself bored.

And if every PC barovian is one of these extraordinary characters, then such characters aren't so very extraordinary, are they? The server needs the racist, narrow minded, hateful native PCs to help maintain the atmosphere of oppression and ostracization. Such characters add to the feel of the server and therefore should be rewarded, not punished.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 06:07:12 PM by Green Monster »
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herkles

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 06:06:37 PM »
Quote
I do feel bad for native characters. They are being punished for playing natives. Even though it isn't intentional, it's still punishment. Basically, as far as I can see, your choices as a native are to either A) associate with us freak outlanders or B) sit alone somewhere afk all night.


  Am I missing something?  You guys are the ones that chose to play a stereotypical Barovian native.  Your PC has every right to represent an example of an "Extraordinary Native".  One of the few who strives to be something more than a farmer or dock worker, while still keeping true to where they came from.  One who can slowly put aside his fear as he/she gains skills and feats, using them to brave things that would paralyze their brothers and sisters with fear.  If that's not your thing, then fine.  But don't complain about how nobody wants to sit in the inn with you and talk about the next season's crop, drink Tsukia, and then go back home to the wife and kids.  It's clearly not for everyone, so don't be afraid to add some kind of excitement to your PC's life if you find yourself bored.

this is another reason why barovia is not that great as a hub or a center of social intrigue.


Legion XXI

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 06:09:34 PM »

And if every PC barovian is one of these extraordinary characters, then such characters aren't so very extraordinary, are they? The server needs the racist, narrow minded, hateful native PCs to help maintain the atmosphere of oppression. Such characters add to the feel of the server and as such should be rewarded, not punished.

   Well, the PC Barovians are not the only inhabitants of Vallaki, are they?  And I never said you had to give up what makes them Barovian.  You can be racist, narrow minded, and hateful.  You can also do this in places that are not the Blue Water Inn or Broken Bell.  All I'm saying is if you find yourself bored in a certain place, then maybe you should leave that certain place instead of telling others to come entertain you because your character can't go anywhere else.  You are the one choosing to play your character that way.

Green Monster

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2012, 06:20:29 PM »
No one ever suggested that other players should change their behaviour. I think encouraging IC behaviour through some changes to the server that would allow native characters to move freely in the city at night to meet up with each other, while still limiting access for non-natives, is better than encouraging native characters to behave in OOC ways like hanging about with the hated outlanders.
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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2012, 07:01:35 PM »
Legion's right. NPC Barovians are like level 0 characters. The NPCs populate areas to represent the "average Joe"s of Barovia. Our characters, whether we (or the characters themselves) view them as such or not, are the heroes and villains of the world. They are all exceptions to the rule.

You can RP whatever you want, of course, but this is not an "average Barovian" sim and you can't expect others to play it like that.

~sorry if this comes across as harsh, I don't intend for that - just a lil drunk and trying to get my views across. <3
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:06:20 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Dumas

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2012, 07:08:43 PM »
I heavily agree with you, BahamutZ3RO!

We aren't here to play The Sims - Barovia.... are we??

Feronius

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2012, 07:09:59 PM »
You're both missing the entire point actually, Legion XXI and BahamutZ3RO. Or posting in the wrong thread. (Drunken posting, haha)
But at least one person did read the actual suggestions and commented on them, thank you.

This isn't about tavern RP or playing a native character.
Read the original post please, before posting.





About your reply Green Monster, the Night guards?
I fear such a system will only discourage RP more and yet again force strict "black or white" mechanics down people's throats. (And it seems a lot of work to script.)
You do not need hostile spawns or harsh server features / mechanics to set a certain vibe or tell a story. People don't need to have their hands held.


"The village of Barovia has neither hostile spawns or any other strict mechanics, yet it has an argueably stronger Gothic Horror vibe than Vallaki has." (Herkles, I think?)

I don't think the overkill of wererat spawns adds anything to the setting or server. And I think opening the gates earlier makes sense from a native's point of view.
Both these small changes encourage RP, without discouraging the setting. Which I think is a good thing? We want to see people using the city to RP in more, right?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 08:11:23 PM by Feronius »

dutchy

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2012, 07:10:51 PM »
so wait wait let me get this straigth.

beside 4 inns

3-4 obvious faction bases

several shops

few empty houses

it needs more stuff?
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Feronius

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2012, 07:15:21 PM »
No Dutchy. Read or don't comment at all, the suggestions are mostly regarding outdoor areas even.
It's not about native characters, tavern RP, expanding the city, the sewers, the outskirts.. the OP doesn't suggest more buildings or whatever.
The thread isn't called "Discuss RP on the server", I'm trying to make some suggestions as to improve RP conditions within the city, not just for native PCs either.



EDIT:
Tempted to ask for the entire thread to be deleted and start over, but I don't think it's the unclear title or content of the OP that is the problem. People read what they want to read.
I slightly edited the original post in the hopes people might comment on the actual suggestions being made.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:33:22 PM by Feronius »

Feronius

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2012, 07:18:23 PM »
I heavily agree with you, BahamutZ3RO!

We aren't here to play The Sims - Barovia.... are we??

Smartass comment, but have you ever watched a movie? Read a book?
It's not only fight scenes. Try investigations, political intrigues, criminal business, scheming, etc.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:20:34 PM by Feronius »

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2012, 07:31:39 PM »
Spoiler: show
Native PCs are intended to be the adventurers for Ravenloft. Outlanders are rare. Now on our server that isn't the case for the rareness and I am not advocating that it should be that way.

I'm just saying that, yeah, we're allowed to be Barovian adventurers and all that. People who think natives = npcs are not doing it right. Though they're allowed to play NPCs if that is what float their boats.

Barovians especially respect and advocate warriors regardless of their ethnic background. Wizards are unlikely, but those mountains seem to scream ISOLATE YOURSELF AND STUDY POWER. Sorcerers and bards exist. Rangers and Druids could find their place. There are native traditions of divine magic.

Get at it dogs.

Just don't go about going "HELLO I AMT A BAROVIAGND PALDAIN AF HELM FOR NO RAISIN!" - that's just not what is cool.


Also Vallaki could use a whole lot of fixing up. The city is too big and doesn't really make much sense.

I'd love to see the size of Vallaki taken down to something like 50% and a basic divide of rich half and poor half. There is WAY TOO MUCH space that is underused. Like I am certain I could hide a body in Yusuf Hakim's and no one would find it just because I bet most people don't even know who that is... because no one is exploring the big and empty Vallaki. Vallaki needs a REDUCTION!

Essentially a poor half with the tigans. A market area in the literal center of town, where the "middle folk" live. And then a separate area that contains the rich people supposed boyars and rich people. In the background the imposing terg ruin Vallaki was built on, the citadel. The walls would only be accessed at select ramps. (None of those stupid ramps) and could be paroled by the garda FROM the citadel so there would be night patrols. Essentially just two areas and with walls all around. They could take all the current NPCs and shops and just put them in the market and maybe some of the fancier stuff where "richtown" would be.

They need to remove the wererat spawns from inside the city and leave any sillyness like that for the sewers below. The giant rats are fine and could be  a direct and horrific result of what is down below. The sewers I'd love to see taken from that weird Renaissance/Steampunk mess and turned into a series of caves with a cess pit and some drainage holes to get down. Why does Vallaki have a modern sewer?

Why is the WALLED fortress town filled with monsters? Theres nothing in game that explains it to us, at least, I haven't found anything. If anything it would make more sense that they'd have relative safety (except plague rats inside the walls that might be more than malevolent after dark in some of the nastier places...) behind the walls.

Temple just needs to be encouraged as a place of healing and respite rather than a BILLY JOE'S AMAZING UNDEAD SAFARI FUNHOUSE. Make people work it and adventure, right now (and I don't really blame people too much) there's no reason to go anywhere. The Temple is safe and it has a direct route to a decently doable area directly. Now it even has a LOL HERE HAVE SOME DMG VERSUS UNDEAD TO MAKE IT AMAZING stuff.

I'd love for them to use the Krofburg tileset to redo Vallaki and the village. That tileset makes a lot more sense for Vallaki and Barovia's cultural level. Even if it is a trade city, it doesn't have to be that big. Cities in the middle ages were not that big. The cool stuff was usually inside the small "inner city" part where the castle/bailey/whatever fortification was, and everything outside of it was farmlands where people would try and get behind the walls during war/siege/disaster.

tl;dr Vallaki needs to be made smaller and safer. Monster spawns need to be kept below and outside of its walls to encourage a reason to go in at night (also make a little more sense). Essentially being outside the safety of the walls is dangerous/adventurous. The Morninglord temple needs to have its entrance to the crypts removed/destroyed/locked so people actually use the routes below and its other entrances to get inside.

Right now Vallaki is just too big and no one really seems interested in scoping the place out due to there being no reason to look around there outside maybe a DM quest.


Feronius

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Re: Encouraging RP inside the city
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2012, 07:40:57 PM »
Edited the original post. If this isn't to the point, I don't know what is.
Placed the longer version within spoilers. Now please, do discuss the actual suggestions being made.


I do agree with most of your post Geiger, but I do think it's the accesibility (/ excessive risk) that is the problem, not the size.
According to the lore it has a few thousand people right? That seems to be more or less how it's represented in-game. Although spaces are underused, 6 "taverns" in one town?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 07:47:39 PM by Feronius »