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Author Topic: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...  (Read 10298 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2012, 01:26:43 PM »
But also, finally and as Crimson suggests, it is subjective. Only if we all admit that can we engage in constructive dialogue. I've too often witnessed people so convinced by the brilliance of their design ideas that they loose sight of how frustrating they are to the players or how little they actually work for creating an enduringly interesting experience.

Spoken differently, it's very easy to have opinions about what's wrong and what would be better, but it's much less simple to make something that actually works. The 99% empty NWN servers is an attestation to this aspect. We should all have some humility toward that. It's not as forward as you might think.

As someone who was around for Cookie's reign on Anphillia, I agree completely. You start changing things willy-nilly to try and make everyone happy and in the end nobody is going to be.
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Feronius

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2012, 03:35:19 PM »
I don't think there's a bottom to this discussion.
In the end, what the devteam wants, goes. Although I personally still don't get why there's such high level challenges in the very first dungeon you meet.
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dutchy

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2012, 03:45:34 PM »
Deeper you go harder it gets mpc can hunt there below without going trough the ml temple  they can haunt things kill things etc.  If anything you could see it as a place for other then low lvls

Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2012, 04:24:08 PM »
Deeper you go harder it gets mpc can hunt there below without going trough the ml temple  they can haunt things kill things etc.  If anything you could see it as a place for other then low lvls

Fair point but MPCs can set up camp just about anywhere. They only pick the Crypts because of convenience and the number of people that pass through (I assume).
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Ercvadasz

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2012, 05:45:23 PM »
Well and if an AMPC would have set up two electric traps (average) and slaughter everyone with them, or cast grease while folks were fighting the hordes of undead, they would feel griefed, because they could not farm, they lost their items and gold. Sorry to say this but for some this would be the case.
Because it gets ridiculuous that guy divine pools, goes down gets hurt runs back, gets healed and infinite loop...Also works with large number of folks.
Not to mention it breaks immersion, negates fear. Even worse is when someone gets raised and HEADS DOWN IMMIDEATLY TO NOT be left out from the XP GAIN!
Because sorry to say this and the loot is what drives most folks down there.

I am sorry as well, to sound a bit harsh and grumpy, but lately i seen so many things that break the setting atmosphere and immersion...that it upsets me a bit.
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Amon-Si

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2012, 05:51:54 PM »
In two days there will be something more to fear in those crypts. You have been warned.

Feronius

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2012, 06:28:59 PM »
In two days there will be something more to fear in those crypts. You have been warned.

Yes, because people didn't have any intrigueing reasons to go down there yet.
Do reward them with yet another potential for an event or such, which might not even be appreciated fully, depending on the group you bump into.

I'd say promote a different area instead for a change, if you can. I know it can be tough to find RP (especially if we are talking about MPCs), but it can also be worthwhile to look elsewhere.
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Amon-Si

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2012, 06:37:34 PM »
In two days there will be something more to fear in those crypts. You have been warned.

Yes, because people didn't have any intrigueing reasons to go down there yet.
Do reward them with yet another potential for an event or such, which might not even be appreciated fully, depending on the group you bump into.

I'd say promote a different area instead for a change, if you can. I know it can be tough to find RP (especially if we are talking about MPCs), but it can also be worthwhile to look elsewhere.

For those who want to RP, I promise a creepy, rewarding experience, for those who don't... well... good luck! :)

Blight

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2012, 06:58:49 PM »
Well and if an AMPC would have set up two electric traps (average) and slaughter everyone with them, or cast grease while folks were fighting the hordes of undead, they would feel griefed, because they could not farm, they lost their items and gold. Sorry to say this but for some this would be the case.
Because it gets ridiculuous that guy divine pools, goes down gets hurt runs back, gets healed and infinite loop...Also works with large number of folks.
Not to mention it breaks immersion, negates fear. Even worse is when someone gets raised and HEADS DOWN IMMIDEATLY TO NOT be left out from the XP GAIN!
Because sorry to say this and the loot is what drives most folks down there.

I am sorry as well, to sound a bit harsh and grumpy, but lately i seen so many things that break the setting atmosphere and immersion...that it upsets me a bit.

It would be possible for the Devs to script an "xp-timer" after death. Thus, a player who gets raised by anything but ressurection would be unable to collect xp until they are able to rest. Perhaps that would be a reasonable middle ground?
Just another lesson from the School of Hard Knocks... PHD!

Ovidiu_Lacusta

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2012, 07:01:32 PM »
I think monster AI should always gun for someone marked by raise sickeness.  "Here, pick me, pick me!"

It's begging to die again, after all.  Penalizing XP or timers aren't as horrific as being first choice for getting killed again.

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2012, 07:18:13 PM »
What is this topic even about at this point?

It occurs to me that we are once again at the same talk about how all the other guys are doing it wrong, right?

dutchy

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2012, 07:26:31 PM »
What is this topic even about at this point?

It occurs to me that we are once again at the same talk about how all the other guys are doing it wrong, right?

you did it wrong yes YOU got us to play potm and ncw   i told you from the first ncw i dont like it  :mrgreen:   yet your team persisted and created and altered areas.

not our faulth youre staff keeps changing things and balances stuff out  people want it difrantly thus the staff is doing it wrong not us...no not the gratefull, well spoken, adult thinking playerbase.

*grabs some rotten tomatoes* 

i can keep this up all night and day  *has a truck load of them and has ordered some gas aswell*   

*done trolling*

poeple see an area dislike it or disagree with it but forget the other areas and factors such as factions,mpcs, difrant style of players are taken into acount with it all.

the bigger picture is often missed.

Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

Honoun

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2012, 09:54:49 PM »
Are there a lot of players doing it wrong? Probably. And very few doing it right? Chances are thats true as well. Certainly I try to do the right thing but considering my personality, of which it tends to make its way into my chars, I am the one playing them after all, I do find it hard to adhere to a gothic horror setting. I'm just too bubbly happy for it to be honest. But I do try, was accused the other day by another player and they know who they are ;) that all my Chars are cute, (it was in jest I assume though). :mrgreen:

I've actually got no issue if there are players who farm the crypts all the time, I rarely go down there myself so power to them. My main beef was the uber powerlevel of the critters in there that my chars couldn't even harm this NCW... But thats been addressed. In any case I'd rather find glorious adventure and uber RP else where any day of the week. However, I tend to find both those start in and around the outskirts more often than not. Thus thats where you'll find me most of the time.

Feronius

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
What is this topic even about at this point?

It occurs to me that we are once again at the same talk about how all the other guys are doing it wrong, right?

Someone should really get to the bottom of this. (The thread's title? Get it? Ha ha)


Spoiler: show
In all seriousness, I believe the most voiced comment is that the server actually points you towards farming the hell out of the Morninglord temple in every way possible.
I don't think it really is about the blame being put on the players themselves (well, maybe a little in some of the comments.)

This is my perspective though, but the main complaint seems to primarily be that the reward / risk ratio of the Morninglord crypts isn't scaled in an even way compared to the other dungeons or the ultimately low level area it's placed in,  it's not what you'd expect of the first dungeon you come across in-game? No traveling time, healer nearby, additional rewards in the form of easily grindable healing tonics and immense xp. At least those are the only reasons I can think of as to why it's being farmed so much more than anything else out there, while the risk level isn't higher than that of dungeons of compareable levels. It's convenient, very rewarding and easy to fetch a higher level to carry you through (or bring you back to life) from the bordering player hub.
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Honoun

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2012, 11:28:25 PM »
Here's a thought, remove the knuckle for healing potion thing from Lizuca. This will reduce the desire to farm the crypts even if only a little bit. Now have Herbalists make Cure Light Wounds potions that they sell back to the vendor in the herbalist crafting station in Vallaki. Just like some other crafts do in the warehouse, same deal basically. In turn that same vendor sells those same potions. Of course it will be limited stock, so if she ever sells out you're gonna have to wait for another herbalist crafter to create some more to sell to her so you can get some once more. A, it supplies a basic healing potion to the broader player base but they have to go out of their way to get it. And B, its one way for a Herbalist to earn a little coin to pay for their craft, currently they have no other means to fund it that I am aware of besides selling direct to other players or the obligatory dungeoning. Unlike other crafts that have both those and the supply of crafting items in the warehouse.

Yes I'm aware there several methods of earning coin, this is not my point though.

Lucadia

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2012, 11:46:43 PM »
average cure light from hearbalist is 5 hp while potions from liz is 16. most
players that claim they are potion hunting is just excuse to form a group or exp hunt.
removing them is not going reduce desire

Honoun

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2012, 12:31:15 AM »
So make it Cure Moderate Wounds potion then, do I have to spell it out everytime? And you don't know that other players are using knuckle gathering just as an excuse, and even if they are take away the knuckle gathering and they'll have to come up with a better excuse to go down there. Who knows doing so may result in there being more RP.

The fact is at the moment the difficulty level of the crypt keeps being raised which then by default validates a higher level char to go down there cause they can still get XP if the spawn is good enough. On the flip side the result is if a low level party goes down the crypt they have little to no chance of defeating the dungeon, a dungeon that's in a low level zone no less. If my suggestion is tried then you could lower the difficulty of the dungeon to mirror more the level zone its actually in. Thus giving higher level chars less reason to do it but still allowing low levels the challenge that they seek and require. This goes for the loot as well, you can lower it so it still seems appealing to low level but to a high level its just, oh sub par... They'll end up going else where for higher challenge and reward.

And that's the whole point really, to give higher levels less reason to go down there and greater reason to go further afield. Keep upping the anti in the crypts and you're just giving them reason to stay.

Time_Stomped

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2012, 03:38:22 AM »
Only if we all admit that can we engage in constructive dialogue. I've too often witnessed people so convinced by the brilliance of their design ideas that they loose sight of how frustrating they are to the players or how little they actually work for creating an endearingly interesting experience.

Pretty much this.
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Honoun

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2012, 03:50:02 AM »
Indeed, but when I criticise I do try to make an alternative suggestion at the same time. Something many posters don't do, they are quick to point out a negative aspect but then never offer any other method. I do hope that my posts are actually read, cause frankly most times I get the impression most just gloss over them. Which is a shame cause its not like I spend under five minutes thinking about them. In reality it ussualy takes a long time to make a post cause I am thinking the issue through or at least trying to at all angles.

At the end of the day, I do hope that I am actually making a constructive effort.

Feronius

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2012, 08:50:05 AM »
Well, I agree with Lucadia, I don't think the healing tonics are the main problem at all.
It's what this topic was original about, the dungeon being so incredibly difficult compared to the general level of the area it's located in (with that I refer to it being 1 area away from the starting point where new players spawn.) It's technically more than "just a low level dungeon", hence why all the medium to high levels also bother emptying it of spawns. Harder spawns or whatever will only increase the appeal for the higher level characters.

Unless it's ment to be a relatively high level dungeon that isn't ment for the newest of characters, in that case it is working as intended, but I do frown a bit at the placement.
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Ercvadasz

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2012, 08:52:14 AM »
Indeed, but when I criticise I do try to make an alternative suggestion at the same time. Something many posters don't do, they are quick to point out a negative aspect but then never offer any other method. I do hope that my posts are actually read, cause frankly most times I get the impression most just gloss over them. Which is a shame cause its not like I spend under five minutes thinking about them. In reality it ussualy takes a long time to make a post cause I am thinking the issue through or at least trying to at all angles.

At the end of the day, I do hope that I am actually making a constructive effort.

yeah, i was ranting without giving any ideas, or comparison. For which i apologise!
So! Here is first a comparison to mirror what you described about the ml crypts.
What i have gathered and understood from the changes around western Barovia is that devs and dm-s wish it to be a low level area. This is why the vampire crypts and the lich's tower have been altered for. The problem is what you have described in your earlier post that the morninglord crypts was left alone, and actually the challenge of it stays on quite a high level comparing with these two. Skeleton champions, heacuvas, sometimes on occasion a high heacuva. This makes loot drop quite good, and xp gain quite good as well, till a semi-decent high level. (For heacuvas i think you get xp till like level 11 or so.)
Now to compare the crypts with another crypts, where mostly the same type of creatures reside. The von Zeklos crypts.

There you have basicly three types of enemies, and two other types in the last room.
Mutilated corpse(low level zombie), ghoul(low level enemy) and heacuva/high heacuva (mid-high enemy).
In this dungeon you are actualy a bit lost, as to is it meant for lowbies or midbies? The zombies are easy kill, but the heacuvas can give quite a time for even a level 8 char.
In this dungeon the loot is usually not rewarding. (You need to open locks or force open chests, to get very minimal loot.) The xp for a low level is rewarding, but the challenge of the occasional heacuva or high heacuva encounter, ambush is quite high/very high.(Hold person, hammer of the gods, summon skeletal knight, etc.)
My suggestion would be to switch the creature types of these dungeons. Let the crypts house these lower level enemies, with the occasional boss enemy (max a heacuva or a warrior/champ maybe normal agarat), and make the von Zeklos keep a bit harder, balance out the big differences among the available enemies there.
Because now the Zeklos crypts is seldom visited and even when it is, it is usually for crypt herbs, and knuckles.
It is quite far away from the outskirts, it is a dead-end path, so i think it would not be such a huge problem to raise its challenge.
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Zarathustra217

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2012, 12:01:44 PM »
Lowering the strength of what's spawned was a large part of the more recent updates, but as mentioned, the place is currently at a constant relatively high spawn. I'm unable to log on at the moment to go lower the relative strength, but you could ask a DM if you find one online. I believe the population controller is called val_cata_undead

Ercvadasz

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2012, 03:57:38 PM »
Lowering the strength of what's spawned was a large part of the more recent updates, but as mentioned, the place is currently at a constant relatively high spawn. I'm unable to log on at the moment to go lower the relative strength, but you could ask a DM if you find one online. I believe the population controller is called val_cata_undead

I understood what i meant, i just compared the two dungeons.
On high, mid, low spawn levels the difference is very notable. If you compare the von zeklos crypts to the ml crypts the former is a ~joke~, the latter is a deadly challenge which only the presence of Liz and the Light carriers lessens. (It is likely why they are abused.)
Also the Zeklos crypts is remote, and lootwise and xpwise it is weak, again in comparison to the ml crypts, it is why so many do not even go there, because the morninglordian crypts resets to full spawn while you are making the walk to the Zeklos crypts.
It is why i suggest that either lower the medium and high spawn challenge rate for the ML crypts, or finetune the zeklos crypts, because low level, mid level, and high level spawn only differ in the number of heacuvas present (max 4 which can become high heacuvas on max spawn). The other enemies are all the same, on every spawn level.
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2012, 04:14:32 PM »
I've never actually been into the Zeklos crypt, and from what I hear it's generally not worth the effort by the time I can visit it.
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dutchy

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2012, 04:19:57 PM »
There are 3 such dungeons ml temple ..... and zeklos the third you will have to find wich has a great deal of loot

Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company