You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...  (Read 10331 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« on: December 23, 2012, 06:08:06 PM »
The new area's spawns might be a little... out of control. I didn't take a screenshot 'cause I was busy doin' the old Duergar dive to safety, but I think there were something between 30-50 skeletal warriors down there at once.
: )


Zhernebog

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2012, 06:25:46 PM »
Off topic but i am so sorry about you duergar diving onto those two sword spiders to save me haha

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 06:28:08 PM »
Off topic but i am so sorry about you duergar diving onto those two sword spiders to save me haha

Wrong Duergar I think. <_< I haven't Duergar-dived into anything for anyone, except for that one time with Straven. Never again. >:[
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Zhernebog

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 06:36:21 PM »
Damn theres more than one? Oh well you beard-folk all look the same. Close enough. :b

Silverfox

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 07:37:37 PM »
2 Duergar, 4 Drow, 1 Half-Drow.
A most troublesome Fox.

Time_Stomped

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2012, 05:02:53 AM »
I thought it was meant to be out of control, it's an epic battle finale.

The loot value and amount needs to be increased a little bit though.
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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2012, 07:24:38 AM »
Yeah, it's intended to feel like the entire place is coming alive. 30-50 sounds like a bit much though, sure it was that many?

Also, I'll up the loot a bit, but how do you feel about the updates in general? Better/more exciting or just more frustrating?

Misted_Horror

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2012, 07:41:28 AM »
It was more exciting, but I can vouch, at least 30 NPCs, ranging from warriors to knights, even including huecuva.

Feronius

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2012, 07:46:47 AM »
So.. literally half the server (not even exagerating) is constantly swarming one spot, the Morninglord church and crypts below.
And the response is to encourage it by giving them blessings to make it easier to farm and increase the rewards?

Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever.
I thought these kind of weeks would be the perfect chance to finally promote more widespread low level RP -away- from that one spot.



I think I'll simply stop bothering to even discuss this or NCW any further, guess I'll have to roll a dungeoning adventurer and jump the bandwagon.
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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2012, 02:33:44 PM »
So.. literally half the server (not even exagerating) is constantly swarming one spot, the Morninglord church and crypts below.
And the response is to encourage it by giving them blessings to make it easier to farm and increase the rewards?

Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever.


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Zhernebog

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012, 03:27:37 PM »
Throwing my two cents in but if my ncw dude isnt about to be overwhelmed, it's tedious and boring.
I love the tweaked final level of the ml crypts, my only complaint would be for more varied enemies at the highest tier of spawn. Having that one uber enemy in a crowd changes the dynamic from hack and slash to intrigue, positioning, and preparation. Leading to a much more rewarding experience, and subsequently more to discuss after the fact.

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2012, 08:33:50 PM »
Adding the divining pool to the Morninglord church was not about helping people clear that place, but actually to allow low levels explore a much wider range of areas (like the monastery in the southern forests or the sullen woods) that otherwise is of limits to non-casters.

That is all somewhat off topic though. I appreciate the feedback on the changes and will tweak it accordingly. One aspect worth noting though is that the spawning depends on how fast you move in, so not running for the things in the final, large room saves you from having it all coming at you at once. I'll emphasise that a bit more too.

Honoun

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2012, 12:34:56 AM »
I personally applaud the Divining Pool that was implimented, having now played a none caster or two I can understand the frustration that such classes have in.. Oh I don't know, being able to damage anything on the server. Sorry Minks and Rats don't count :P So yeah, hope the divning pool stays ;)

Major Tom

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2012, 02:47:26 AM »
Adding the divining pool to the Morninglord church was not about helping people clear that place, but actually to allow low levels explore a much wider range of areas (like the monastery in the southern forests or the sullen woods) that otherwise is of limits to non-casters.

That is all somewhat off topic though. I appreciate the feedback on the changes and will tweak it accordingly. One aspect worth noting though is that the spawning depends on how fast you move in, so not running for the things in the final, large room saves you from having it all coming at you at once. I'll emphasise that a bit more too.

Personally, what I'd of done was to make the creatures less rape in terms of power. That's one way to let people explore. Also means high levels would fan out more - heck, one reason I never leave Vallaki is 'cause of the sentiment of 'if the low level stuff murders me this easily, I'm boned elsewhere'. And sure enough, first day of NCW, I go to Dementileu, and fighting one Bully and two Thugs takes me down to half health.

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Ercvadasz

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2012, 04:21:44 PM »
I personally applaud the Divining Pool that was implimented, having now played a none caster or two I can understand the frustration that such classes have in.. Oh I don't know, being able to damage anything on the server. Sorry Minks and Rats don't count :P So yeah, hope the divning pool stays ;)

Actually i do not like the divining pool idea.
RP-wise would have been a better solution  hand out a number of holy vials for the NCW morninglordians, so they could offer them to those that go down, basicly the effect is the same like with the divineing pool, just there is RP in obtaining them:)
Also if no char is online, a DM can posesses Liz or other Ml-ers to hand out such vials as well:)
It is just my idea, i find this would have been a bit more helping, then having a permanent boost...:)
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Feronius

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2012, 05:13:53 PM »
I'm not opposed to the divining pool itself, actually. (Although it's kind of odd how even the most evil cultist PCs will end up using it frequently atm.)

But I would've much rather seen something like it placed elsewhere, as everyone was already crowding that one zone as it was.
And I also think simply adjusting the difficulty would've been a much more logical and permanent solution, although perhaps this was an easier / faster temporary fix.
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Time_Stomped

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 06:11:46 PM »
Actually i do not like the divining pool idea.
RP-wise would have been a better solution  hand out a number of holy vials for the NCW morninglordians, so they could offer them to those that go down, basicly the effect is the same like with the divineing pool, just there is RP in obtaining them:)
Also if no char is online, a DM can posesses Liz or other Ml-ers to hand out such vials as well:)
It is just my idea, i find this would have been a bit more helping, then having a permanent boost...:)

A better idea is a profession that only pays you in holy water and vials so even laypersons and regular undead hunters can have them instead of obtaining gold.
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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2012, 06:49:50 PM »
Perhaps it would be very wise to implement it at the slums church and make it a solid enchantment bonus to fight were-creatures as well as undead. I do disagree at it's implementation because in my eyes it promotes more soloers that they do not need to find a buddy and enhance the group experience.

Honoun

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2012, 08:09:17 PM »
The divining pool is NOT a permament boost, it only lasts for one game day, about an hour in RL. lets not confuse peeps here ;) More over its just a +1 and with the spawn down there at the moment soloing the crypts, well have you seen the amount of dead chars in the temple lately? Its obviously not that easy.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 08:13:40 PM by Honoun »

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2012, 08:31:42 PM »
I think it is temporary for NCE could be wrong though.

Major Tom

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2012, 10:50:26 PM »
I still don't get the notion of how giving people MORE firepower to deal with grossly overpowered odds is the solution to the problem, and the outright dismissal of the implication that maybe, just maybe, people should focus less on 'how good can I kill stuff' in campaign designed by its nature to punish that kind of mentality in the first place, and subsequently that the mobs would thus be reduced from their overpowered status in turn, thus negating the requirement for aforementioned firepower.

This is like saying the optimal solution to a Call of Cthulhu campaign is to give everyone rocket launchers and orbital nuke remotes because players would prefer to play action hack-slash gameplay in a setting designed to be investigative-roleplay, rather than, say, just play a setting that's designed around action hack-slash and rocket launchers.

And before anyone criticizes this as accusing people of 'doing it wrong'.. yes, I am accusing certain people of 'doing it wrong'. That does not, however, mean, that they cannot be shown how to do it right, if simply by setting them aside and explaining it to them. You don't bring the Chance cards from Monopoly to a Magic the Gathering session, expecting everything to be amended and moved around just because somehow you decided it was totally relevant to the game design to play 'Get out of Jail Free' against a Phyrexian Negator, do you? No, you sit the player aside and tell them 'this is how we play Magic'. So then why do you justify bringing gaming ideals from an action-based setting like, I dunno, Warhammer, let's say, to the clearly more cerebral Ravenloft one. Why Warhammer? Well, because where else will you find a better example of a racism-and-superstition driven meatgrinder RPG setting than that?

And just 'cause I know it's gonna come up, yes, combat is a part of just about every tabletop RPG, and cRPG. Nobody denies this. However, there's such a thing as priorities and focus. See: The Tomb of Horrors. This is something clearly not designed for the hack-and-slash focused gamer of DnD. It even friggin' says so in the campaign book. And this was a campaign designed by friggin' Gygax, whose campaigns were legendary for murdering the crap out of ill-prepared players, even when action-based.

I just don't get why everyone is fixated on getting more and more power and more and more action-oriented traits, gear, and facets in a setting designed to function without any of that stuff, then justifying it with a handwavey 'it's leveling the playing field', when it was clearly the players who borked the playing field in the first place by refusing to adhere to the setting. It'd be like someone shoving a Jedi into a LOTR campaign, and rather than booting the player, you remodel the entire campaign to make Jedi canon. And now we have Sauron as a Force ghost, Force Choking the shit out of everyone whilst wielding a One Ring-styled lightsaber. Which is what it feels like we're heading towards on a steady basis.

Heck, between the way that the server now feels like a High Magic hack-and-slash RP server (as opposed to the Ravenloft setting being Low Magic, roleplay/intelligence RP), and with people flinging spells left and right without anyone saying a thing about it, the setting is already so compromised that I might as well roll up a character who's from the 21st Century who fell through a gap in time, and then went through the mists. It's about as acceptable as everything else is thusfar.

EDIT: Bleh.. I apologize, since I'm grumping, but every time I see the justification for raising the magic rank and power on the server even more, yet again, it just grates my nerves like sandpaper. I stand by my point, regardless, grump-induced as it may be, because I do feel there are valid points in what I say.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 11:15:47 PM by Major Tom »

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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2012, 11:49:30 PM »
All I can say after reading loads of your posts, is that it is your opinion Tom. You are entitled to it but it is just one opinion and I would not deem it the "right" one any more than I would say the most action oriented players here are "right".  PotM is sold very short by you and others who state such derision for the action oriented players. On this server, the vast majority of what occurs is from players and their initiatives.  There is a dwarven trial going on in-game as we speak that is completely player driven and includes 15 or so characters. Those same characters have been in dungeons "actioning" it up earlier in the week. Are they ruining the setting, lifting it up, or just suiting their own tastes? Who can say, its all subjective and I would rather we have the freedom and trust of roleplay and wherever we might want it to go then be told that "Ravenloft is not supposed to be about mechanics blah blah"  because frankly that is not even true. I am a good horror dungeon master in real life and people have told me they love my games. Guess what? In my Ravenloft games, its a lot more akin to the latter half of "Night of the Walking Dead" module or I6 inside the castle than it is the "discouragement of action elements" stuff you seem to have latched onto. You might hate my games, or just be indifferent but its Ravenloft and its horror and the rest is all subjective and whims. All of the tricks of horror roleplay are in the module and can be used by any player. Simple things like having your character look up as they pass Tser Falls bridge and make note of the ramparts of castle ravenloft and shuddering can feed the feel of Ravenloft.  Some will incorporate more or less of that to suit their tastes,  handholding that frankly is impossible on a server hosting 70 players or more a day.  The game happens organically, it grows into unforseen directions and the NCW has been a microchasm of that.  Been some action, which has built relationships and alliances and enemies and lead to some pvp and some playergroups and the cast of characters is a unique one to this one week and even within the span of 5 days things have progressed far. The game happens for those who initiate it, involve their self, roleplay their own character and react or not react as they see fit through their eyes of their role. Stop over complicating and naysaying all day and try to achieve your a game to suit own liking in-game my role-play brother. When I made my elf for this event I could not possibly of dreamed he would have helped slain a wight or befriend a group of halflings or dwarves or ever even step foot in Dvergeheim for that matter. It just happened and that is the magic of roleplay to me. Other players have more to do with your success of a character than you do your self. Its a group effort to tell a tale.


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Major Tom

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2012, 12:22:42 AM »
I could say a number of things, debate points, perspectives, quote books, commentaries and second opinions, drop facts and more.. but all I'm gonna do is just shrug and give up. I resign from the thread, and leave its posters to their views and methods, with all due and deserved respects.

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Zarathustra217

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2012, 10:07:23 AM »
While I can sympathise with those ideals of what a DnD experience at it's core might be, we have to be pragmatists as well.

First of all, it's a matter of keeping things challenging enough to require careful preparation, while still not making it so circumstantial that people don't even try. Latter was the case with places like the Monastery and the Sullen Woods, unless you were a cleric or mage - and the end result being that places like the catacombs being overcrowded. Thus the divining pool addition. Since it only last for one I.G. day, it requires you to visit the temple before each venturing out. In my mind, that is requiring preparation.

Second, there are vast difference between designing a PnP dungeon and one for a PW as ours. Our dungeons have to be designed so that the challenge can endure being revisited at later and still be equally interesting. The classic pre-scripted puzzles won't work quite as well here. It can be overcome, but as I've mentioned in another topic, it is time consuming.

But also, finally and as Crimson suggests, it is subjective. Only if we all admit that can we engage in constructive dialogue. I've too often witnessed people so convinced by the brilliance of their design ideas that they loose sight of how frustrating they are to the players or how little they actually work for creating an enduringly interesting experience.

Spoken differently, it's very easy to have opinions about what's wrong and what would be better, but it's much less simple to make something that actually works. The 99% empty NWN servers is an attestation to this aspect. We should all have some humility toward that. It's not as forward as you might think.

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Re: Bottom of the Morninglord Crypts...
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2012, 10:48:23 AM »
Quote
Second, there are vast difference between designing a PnP dungeon and one for a PW as ours. Our dungeons have to be designed so that the challenge can endure being revisited at later and still be equally interesting. The classic pre-scripted puzzles won't work quite as well here. It can be overcome, but as I've mentioned in another topic, it is time consuming.

I scrapped an entire dungeon in Sithicus because the players reported that there was not sufficient variability. Balancing high-level encounters and mutability is inconceivably difficult in NWN.
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